PaulS

Australian Federal Police are investigating a protest ###### violent riot that occurred in Sydney on Saturday after a computer-generated text message was sent to over 2500 mobile phones encouraging protest against this movie. Questions are being asked if the messages were generated in Australia or offshore, and whether it is part of a bigger effort to cause mayhem using this 'movie' as an excuse. Naturally there were a number of non-violent muslims who attended this protest and some were seen trying to calm things down before they got ugly. The crowd went from about 300 to 100 when it turned bad.

I'm in for Righteous Mind. I've read Putting Away Childish Things , which I loved, but I've seen Haidt mentioned a few times here so will be keen to get hold of a copy to discuss if agreed upon.

Thanks Joseph. I wonder if what we do here then to limit harmful free speech, relies upon some legal interpretation of those 'responsibilities', or whether I just live in an oppressive society I do note that Wikipedia says "Unlike what has been called a strong international consensus that hate speech needs to be prohibited by law and that such prohibitions override, or are irrelevant to, guarantees of freedom of expression, the United States is perhaps unique among the developed world in that under law, hate speech is legal". I expect the Supreme Court rulings you mention rely upon your First Ammendment rather than Article 19 ICCPR.

Thanks George. Although the government isn't directly complicit in such activity, I guess the country and government do carry the can to some degree in that their laws allow people to behave this way toward certain others, with full immunity. In Australia we go further than just libel and slander and have laws prohibiting the denigration of others based purely on sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc. I'd like to think that helps with the 'responsibilty' aspect of free speech that Raven touches on. Cheers Paul

I've never quite understood this 'freedom of speech' thing in America. Are people there completely free to say whatever they want publicly, regardless of whether it's sexist, racist, homophobic, denigrates religion, or is otherwise discriminatory? Is there no threat of legal action?

Trying to convince people who seemed relatively good, moral, and at peace with the world and themselves, that they were delusional and in fact needed Jesus in their life. Allowing myself to think that it was fair and just for others to be condemned to eternal pain and misery simply because they didn't see Jesus the way I did. Arrogantly believing that I had all the answers as I had been raised within 'true' Christianity. My judgemental attitude toward 'non-believers'. Homophobia. Racism and other forms of discrimination (not the overt kind, oh no, we loved God too much for that, just the covert kind like how we felt about others and how we excluded when it suited). When some little tiny thing was seen as an answer to prayer, whilst conveniently ignoring that God seemed to be more than a little silent on the millions of children dying every day of starvation, malnutrition and other treatable conditions. Believing that cruelty, injustice, misery and pain, are somehow part of God's 'plan' for certain people.

Good on you Jonny for sticking it out, church and TCPC! I hope you find a balance that suits you and your family. Cheers Paul

Adekis, I remember also hearing often about how if the earth was really billions of years old then the dust on the moon should be metres deep, not just inches. Once I was with a Christian youth group (not a scientist amongst them) who ridiculed a cave guide showing us stalagmites and stalagtites where he said they were hundreds of thousands of years old. However these pseudo-scientists seemed to think that because you could see water dripping and some tites and mites had formed a bit faster, that therefore everything was only a few thousand years old. I cringe when I remember myself giving a presentation at school when I was 16 about creationism vs evolution, and the killer fact that I presented in conclusion was how all of the fossil evidence to support evolution could actually fit into one coffin! How times change! Cheers Paul

I may be wrong on this and I apologise if it offends any conservatives reading this, but I have always considered conservatives in general to be a cold, hard bunch regardless of their profession to love God and their neighbours with all their heart. What I mean by this is that I see a certain 'us & them' mentality whereby those who are saved by Jesus and in and those who aren't saved, well that's up to God to punish them because that's what they deserve. So I see this strange amalgam where people say that love is all that matters, but then seem to not care that billions of their brothers and sisters are going to suffer for the rest of eternity. I have pondered how this sort of view effects the goodwill of conservatives. I think they often convince themselves that somehow they love unconditionally and are bearing some unique witness to the world, when all the time they are content for God to deal their understanding of his hand to the unsaved for all eternity. I think that simply has to impact on how they feel for others. Like Norm mentions, they might hand out some coffee and preach, but that really is lacking when it comes to appropriate love. I'm sure some will say that at least they are doing something, and they are, but I would say it is hardly the assistance that their Lord and Saviour seemed to be recommending.

The more I thought about this question, the harder I found it to answer. I think most would commonly say that criticism is constructive if it is meant with the best of intent and is delivered appropriately and received accordingly. It is raised to assist another or improve something. For instance, in a work environment where a manager provides constructive criticism to a direct report about their people skills and the manager is correct, the direct report does need to make some adjustments in this area. But where it all starts to get messy is when the criticism is received as non-constructive, or where perhaps the criticism is an opinion that isn't neccessarily right (or isn't the only right answer) even if it is genuinely meant with the best of intent. The other thing I started to think about was what actually makes the criticism constructive? Normally I think it's regarded as constructive if it is warranted (see above example), but is it constructive if the receiver doesn't want to consider the criticism and instead puts barriers up between them and the critic? Sure the determination of constructiveness or non-constructiveness may rest with the criticised, but that doesn't neccessarily change the fact that criticism that should be viewed as constructive turns out to be non-constructive (or am I just thinking too much?). Perhaps the line rests with the critic considering not only if the criticism is warranted, but also if it might be received as constructive. Then again, does that mean warranted criticism is withheld simply because there is concern about how the criticised will receive the criticism? As for recognising when it's more out of habit rather than love, I imagine that's a little hard to do at the time if it is an unconscious behaviour. That said, I expect at some point (either when it is pointed out or when there is reflection) one may realise they are prone to this unconscious behaviour and may be very conscious to ensure they don't execute it. I think for me personally, I can easily fall into the trap of criticising somebody else's behaviour and/or beliefs, justifying it as constructive because I believe it's warranted, yet make the criticism knowing that it won't be constructive at all in relation to the other person's thought processes and/or behvaiour, in fact it may even polarise us more. That being the case, is it construcive or non-constructive criticism?

Has to be a sign of the end times when all will be lead by the anti-Christ (assuming Obama is no longer the a/c and focus has switched back to the Pope!)

Thanks for that Myron, I get your point now, although I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus did discuss and debate a variety of philosophies and opinions in his developing years before morphing into the Jesus who knew his stuff at 33yrs. I guess in relation to this post and where it came from, Jesus had a strong view of how things should be and wasn't backwards in coming forward. Whether he'd shut up and smile or vehemently debate those who were of the opinion he was going to hell for wrong belief and would tell him so, is of course definitively unanswerable, but for me personally I just can't see Jesus caring or getting his feathers ruffled by people he'd believe we're mistaken about his beliefs. Of course, I could be wrong. (I was almost wrong once when I thought I was wrong but I wasn't !)

I'm not sure what ancient arguments you may be referring to Myron. Is your view that Jesus' example has no reference in today's modern times? As you rightly point out, words in thr right time and place are effective actions, and Jesus would appear to know this. Am I missing something?

No doubt Jesus had opinions and wanted to share his message, but I don't picture him as one who would argue the point. He had his bit to say and then left it up to the hearer to put words into action. Yes, he continually spoke up about poor leadership by authorities, and I believe he would encourage us to do so, but i don't think he lost too much sleep over people who thought he was living his life wrong. So I guess my way of thinking is by all means speak out or even challenge others if you like, but at the end of the day if somebody has their mind made up that they hold the truth and won't consider your opinion or argument, better off to let it be. I'd rather save my energy for better things. Cheers Paul

It seems to me that Jesus had the biggest impact 'standing up for himself' when he silently went to his death. He didn't seem too concerned with trying to convince anybody else that he was right and they were wrong. If ever there was a time to stand up for your beliefs, one might have thought this would be the time, yet it seems he generally allowed his life to speak for itself regardless of whether he was overlooked, out shouted or outvoted.

Yep, Christians and humans in general are very good at ascribing human attributes to entities they don't understand. I guess it makes it easier for humans to rationalise. Punishing somebody else for another's crime is not justice. Punishing yourself so that you can then allow yourself to forgive another's crime makes no sense. I would argue that the true good news that genuine early Christians tried to share was how to have relationship with God whilst alive and had nothing to do with an afterlife. That idea was simply a later human idea that along with Hellenistic influence developed and later gained a place in a diminished Christianity. I don't think Jesus meant hate=murder from a justice & punishment point of view, but rather that hating, just like murder, diminished human relationships and had no place in a proper Kingdom of God.

Welcome Adekis, I'm sure you will meet like-minded people here. Like you, as I started to develop my own identity, I too began to move away from the fundy Christian learnings I had been raised on (we're talking 20+ years ago - I'm 44 now). The difference for me was that I had no idea that there was this 'concept' of denying theism without denying God or Jesus. I did become a snarky atheist with nihilist leanings for a while there, until I just got on with life and left any thinking about God behind. For various reasons a couple of years ago, I began to revisit this God thing. I would say that I still don't believe in God, but something continues to attract me to the subject for whatever reason, so I'm happy to continue thinking and learning. And that's where I find this site a treasure trove of research, opinions, reviews and links to further areas of study/consideration. And it is a very safe and respectful environment to participate in. I very much like Spong and people like Marcus Borg and a number of what might be regarded as 'progressive' authors. I have at times wondered who I may have become if such a site like this was known to me when I was 18 and struggling to deal with my fundamentalist upbringing and the conflict it was raising with how I was learning to understand life. I hope you enjoy it here. Cheers Paul

Joseph's comment made the thought pop into my head of Jesus saying "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they do". Traditionally it's interpreted that this comment is aimed at those responsible for his torture and execution, but I think it comfortably extends to this situation. Those like your aunt and uncle Raven, simply don't 'know' what they are doing. That doesn't mean we should let people do whatever they want to us out of their ignornace or otherwise, but I wonder if recognising that makes it any easier to 'let it be'. Perhaps smile inwardly to yourself whilst remembering that they simply "don't know what they do". I am in a similiar boat so perhaps I might start practising what I preach!

Sorry Dutch, I would be there tomorrow of course, if it weren't for the distance August 20 was my birthday, so I know this is certainly an auspicious date! Glad to hear that apart from energy exhaustion, things are travelling well for you and Diane. All the best. Paul

There's the 'Living The questions' material. Try www.livingthequestions.com Cheers Paul

Today I am enjoying the last day of what turned out to be 7 weeks between jobs, and what a blessing it has been. I've completed several mini projects around the house (built a gazebo, a brick BBQ, some screening, and gardening), enjoyed a caravanning family holiday, had two and a half weeks of school holidays with my children, and most importantly have had time to leave the old job behind in my head. Tomorrow I start with a commercial construction company as manager of HSEQ & HR and with a bunch of nice people I know and have worked with before elsewhere. Life's pretty good.

Will (sorry I didn't notice your proper name before), I remember the piano and organ were regulars in service, and occasionally, just occasionally, there'd be guest or two with guitars (but only at the Evening service), so perhaps I was part of a rebel CoC movement!

Welcome Jeffry, I look forward to your views, ideas and participation. Cheers Paul (Mandurah, Western Australia)

I think so, Stanley. Here is a link to the Australian national website: http://cofcaustralia.org/ Having a look at that and the USA Churches of Christ page - they look very similiar in practice and belief. Cheers Paul

Welcome Stanley, I grew up in a Church of Christ in Western Australia, before leaving that behind at around 18 years of age. I hope you enjoy it here. Cheers Paul