glintofpewter

I guess I have a sliding scale based on treating people and animals with dignity. The higher up the scale the higher the standard. IVF that leads to octoplets is a violation of that dignity. I agree George that sometimes it is not the individual plant is of concern but whether it threatens our environment. I think we will make the same mistakes we have made with relocation of animals and plants to control pests. Orson Scott Card wrote a short story which included the enslavement of people who were forced to grow extra limbs and organs for replacement in others. Dutch

Scientists seem to be able to put the glow in the dark gene into just about anything so tattoo parlors could move beyond inks and piercings. Humans have been playing God for - for as long as they have been sapiens. I agree with Joseph that the technology will be used and its success and failures will determine its continued use. Most doctors are changing IVF procedures to avoid multiple births. Prospective parents will continue to use whatever knowledge is available to 'improve' their offspring. "Volitional Selection"? How would this drive evolution? That is an interesting thought. I can imagine SF scenarios where not only do the rich get richer but the smart get smarter putting an end to upward mobility unless you steal some embryos. The learning curve will be steep because of the complexity. Recent genetic studies of Pygmies have caused some to speculate that their short stature is a byproduct of hormone and immunity changes in response to their environment. Studies also suggest that what genes affect height in one population are not the same that affect height in another population. The loss of diversity is the greatest danger. Being shortsighted about the need for diversity has created many ecological disasters. Dutch

the Son of Man should be recovered from the tomb of traditional theology if Jesus of Nazareth is no longer sacrificed to even the splendid concept of the glorified Christ. if Jesus of Galilee is reinstated in the minds and souls of mortal men as the ideal of personal religious living Do professed Christians fear the exposure of a self-sufficient and unconsecrated fellowship of social respectability and selfish economic maladjustment? these are all interesting images and do relate to common theological questions of at least the last two centuries. The last point I listed is subject of occasional sermons. Each of the images might be worth a blog post or essay. How Jesus became Christ is the subject of more than one book. For me the florid writing of the next to last paragraph gets in the way of the conclusion: that knowing Jesus is the highest value. Brent, I will just have questions and you have 30 years of knowledge. Every idea on the 2000 pages is just a synapse away for you. For me I think these ideas are more accessible elsewhere. Dutch

Interesting contrast in the poems. You have posted several Larkin ones I think. I like them. Oh, to begin afresh each season, each day. Dutch

Hi, Robgil, Thanks for posting a brief intro, in spite of your reluctance. Welcome. Dutch

Trillions of inhabited planets is amazing. Having them named and organized and populated . . . well . . . dutch

the evolutionary account of human development in Africa suggests we didn't have a choice. We had to evolve or die. It happened more that one time. I think the Adam and Eve story was the hunters' and gathers' nightmare that meant the end of idyllic times. But failure to conserve the environment and climate change forced them to become civilized wage slaves. Dutch

We always think we are the first - Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768-1834) objected to the concept of salvation as deliverance from divine wrath. Rather, sin is the absence of God-consciousness and a consequent failure to be utterly dependent upon him.

Music often reveals the age of the producers or the age of the target audience.

Norm, I did not say that this was stupid but that you were smarter than this. I should not have said it this way and I apologize. I look forward to your posts. Your comments have a sense of being real and reasoned. I gravitate to your avatar when looking at a list of new comments. The above is a succinct variation of your criticism of religions. But I don't see how it is useful in the conversation. The generalizations aren't nuanced and don't fit the issues. Deities and what they command evolves, Animal sacrifice is not a permanent characteristic of religion. Common sense is problematic. There have been no animal sacrifices in Judaism or Christianity in two millennia. As George observed the study of religions does include an examination of the costly sacrifice but to say that sacrifice only happens in religion misses much about the nature of sacrifice and its importance of it to any group of people. If animal sacrifice taints a people or practices then the iconic birthplace of democracy, Athens, is tainted. If making a costly sacrifice for a higher good taints a people then the Civil War and Normandy Invasion taint America and Europe. Democracy is often born in the violent sacrifice of human lives. Deities are not counted and measured in general studies of the evolution of religions. Granted, the effect of some higher being watching our behavior is. But that shared understanding of right behavior which stands outside of any group and can therefore critique those in power is essential to the development of modern stable government, according to Fukuyama, who does not think that religion was always helpful. But in the West this independent sense of what is right evolved with the help of Christianity according to both fukuyama and John Keane, author of Life and Death of democracy. Keane says that democracy is the first human government in that it is not dependent on a deity or a religion for authority. In his view we didn't have democracy fully realized until the beginning of the 20th century and in the west religion helped us achieve the first secular government. We should not confuse the past with the future. Our Christian heritage does not make us a Christian nation. That perhaps the crowning achievement of democracy is that it is the first human, secular, government does not mean that the past would be better if stripped of religion. I think a discussion of the effect and co-evolution of religion can be more nuanced. Is the thinking of Francis Fukuyama and John Keane part of the common that makes sense? Dutch

For those who prefer narrative to bullet points here from Lamb, the Gospel according to Bif Joshua made as if to embrace the old man [Melchior], then instead just poked him in the shoulder. Once and only once, I saw Melchior smile. “But you haven’t taught me everything I need to know,” Josh said. “You’re right, I have taught you nothing. I could teach you nothing. Everything that you needed to know was already there. You simply needed the word for it. Some need Kali and Shiva to destroy the world so they may see beyond illusion to divinity in them, others need Krishna to drive them to the place where they may perceive what is eternal in them. Others may perceive the Divine Spark in themselves only by realizing through enlightenment that the spark resides in all things, and in that they find kinship. But because the Divine Spark resides in all, does not mean that all will discover it. Your dharma is not to learn, Joshua, but to teach.” ... “We [three wisemen] were seekers. You are that which is sought, Joshua. You are the source. The end is divinity, in the beginning is the word. You are the word.

Interesting choice of music.

I don't have a favorite theory. I do find short ideas or stories that reveal ways in which we are renewed, reflecting the complexity of the resurrection as story. Here are several. from Peter Abelard: the crucifixion awakens compassion in us and through that compassion we are made whole. The known world is destroyed so that we may move into a new world We are stripped bare - as Job - so that we become aware of what is eternally true Some may see simply the truth: the Divine Spark is within, within all that is. From Joan of Arcadia TV series Little Girl God: And they all lived happily ever after? (Joan turns) There's a surprise. (Joan scoffs) You guys really like that ending. Joan: Yeah, well, you have a better one? Little Girl God: They all moved towards spiritual growth and enlightenment? Joan: Yeah. That's gonna work with the kids. Little Girl God: Ever notice that the guy always has to risk his life and the girl is nearly dead when he finds her? It takes a kiss to wake her up and they ride off together. It's a nice metaphor. Joan: For what? Little Girl God: Death and resurrection. Joan: Yeah. Well, that's a fun party game. Little Girl God: It happens all the time. The illusion dies so that something deeper can take its place. Joan: (sits down) Are you saying that... Adam and I are an illusion? Little Girl God: Romance serves a purpose. It’s a meditative state. It puts logic to sleep so that people can come together. Otherwise you guys probably wouldn't risk it.

Norm, I know you are smarter than this response suggests. Dutch

Yvonne, Paul, Thank you Dutch

Drove up to Greeley yesterday to hear Bishop Spong. Was surprised to find that 6 other members of my church were also there. His thesis was that we need to take the title of Savior away from Jesus since there is no original sin to be saved from. I enjoyed the questions and responses more than the lecture. My wife asked to go with me. that was a pleasure. Visited my mom who lives nearby. Dutch

First: it is not a perfect world. There will always be the tug of tribalism and the temptation to use power to oppress. However I am speaking of the grand arc of evolution which is not a straight continuous line. The limits of reciprocal altruism as an explanation of why we treat each kindly and with relative fairness has been reached as new research reveals the deeply rooted prosocial propensities humans have for moral action. Even the Social Contract view of human political organization has been called into question. As prosocial animals we naturally seek a peaceful and orderly society. Laws are usually to prevent "freeloading" by the few. Frans de Waal does research in the evolution of morality and empathy in primates. He uses his results to argue against a theistic God as the source of morality. That's OK with me because I think his work fits perfectly a process theology that sees that everything is related externally (where the materialists do their work) and internally. It is evidence that the Divine Becoming and the Universe Becoming are dancing the evolutionary waltz. God does not pull soul, with accompanying morality perhaps, out of the pharmacy and inject it at the end of the first trimester in fetal development. Morality and empathy have been evolving for 13.7 billion years. Frans de Waal Ted Talk Karl Jasper's Axial Age, examined in Karen Armstrong's book, The Great Transformation, posits that all major religions/ worldviews evolved the same spiritual/moral view of individual dignity and responsibility between 800 and 200 BCE. No longer was the relationship between the divine and humankind centered in the tribe or the nation. The relationship was between the individual and God. We talk about the Western idea of the dignity and worth of the individual to have grown out of the teachings of Jesus but we can point to the Amos and Micah and Isaiah as early realizations in the Judaeo-Christian traditions. I think the evolution of democracy is part of this grand arc but if I continue it would mean that I had thrown in the kitchen sink. Take Care Dutch

Phil, Thank you for reading it.I am away from my computer so there will be at least two responses to your questions. First: Steven Pinker on the myth of violence | Video on TED.com (I couldn't copy the actual link from my phone) While neither he nor I would disagree that we are more efficient in killing, the numbers show that we kill fewer of ourselves. The unprecented UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights would be evidence that our aspirations are higher. Karen Armstrong's Charter for Compassion has a global target, again unprecented in anything even religious organizations have tried. More later Dutch Dutch

1 Certainly there is evidence of the struggle from polytheism to monotheism in the Hebrew Bible. The worship reforms of Hezekiah and Josiah and the struggle to centralize worship in Jerusalem were efforts to focus on a single God for the Israelites and then finally a single God for the universe - through the lens of the males in power. Hezekiah wanted to eliminate not only the Asherah (wife of God?) poles but also the bronze snake which is part of the Exodus story. In his mind they were both idols and obscured a clear focus on the one and only God - on which English seems to force a gender designation. 2 some of my prayer/meditation addresses a feminine other. 3 This takes my breath away when I read it. Endlessly creating Endlessly pulsating The Spirit of the Valley never dies She is called the Hidden Creator Although She becomes the whole universe her immaculate purity is never lost Although She assumes countless forms her true identity remains intact Whatever we see or don't see Whatever exists or doesn't exist Is nothing but the creation of this Supreme Power Tao is limitless, unborn, eternal--It can only be reached though the Hidden Creator She is the very face of the Absolute The gate to the source of all things eternal Listen to her voice; hear it echo through creation Without fail, She reveals her presence Without fail, She brings us to our own perfection The Tao Te Ching Chapter 6 translated by Jonathan Star. Take Care Dutch

Hi, Phil, Welcome. Unemployment as a spiritual journey - more in your company than should be. I will follow your lead in a discussion whether you want to start a new one or pick up an existing one. Dutch

Wow, It looks like cameras have a hard time making sense of the space. Well so do I. As astonishing as the original building. I offer the following Robert Smithson Spiral Jetty , one of the earliest earth works, my pilgramage was during the years when it was under water. http://www.robertsmithson.com/earthworks/spiral_jetty.htm Mark Rothko. The Denver Art Museum has a red one similar this with a lighter border. When I stand in front I always get lost in the color. Sensuous. http://www.hydramag.com/2010/11/21/luciano-cilio-and-the-architectonics-of-heart-and-sound/ Anthony Caro I have seen this piece . It shows his playfulness, his sense of rhythm, the sacred play of art. http://rshelfer.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/013.jpg Sacred Play at its finest - Alexander Calder Dutch

I wasn't referencing Kinsey. My sense of spectrum is based on my personal observations of friends and acquaintances. Sometimes their lives are lived out of wholeness and sometimes out of brokenness. Individuals who don't care about the gender of skin, Individuals who don't care about the gender of relationship. For others gender/sexual identity is defining. I don't believe everyone has the freedom to move back and forward. So I think it is innate for some people. Most gay's I have met told me that they knew early in life. I met a couple individuals whose gender/sexual identity didn't seem to be out of wholeness. Could I have been gay? Probably not although I went on a few dates with gay men. I have been thinking of women as partners for a long time. The gender of their skin is important to me. Dutch

There is a spectrum I think. some friends have told of the moment when they had clarity of their orientation and I have seen the fluidity of sexual identities, - not in youthful adventures but in a series of commitments - that John mentioned in his discussion of queer theory. Skin or relationship is neither female or male. And some of us know that our orientation is singular and innate. Not allowing oneself to know and reveal one's identity can mean slow death. My father walked this path. Dutch

I think even reducing Satan to the tempter gets God off the hook and is not consistent with a monotheistic universe. Even as metaphor I think it distracts us from practices which bring us into God's presence. Dutch

I do think this is 'deconstructed' by relationship. My ability to leave the Bible behind (regarding sexuality) was based on those homosexuals whom I met and know. I am not without my homophobia or stereotypes but I have many more stereotypes, now, under the category "homosexual". Dutch