glintofpewter

Duchamp's urinal is mythic in the art world. Many artists cite it influential. Duchamp himself is mythical - in the art world. I think That speaks to the limits of the concept of mythology in a world of 6 billion people. Mythology is important within its sphere of influence. It makes little or no sense outside that sphere. Christianity of any stripe seems strange to those who are not part of it or do not grant it the assumptions it needs internally. Dutch

We need to separate these siamese twins, marriage license and marriage consecration. Govt shouldn't be blessing and church shouldn't be licensing.

Some art becomes myth but not all. I thing myth involves group consciousness. If art participates in that then it is myth. Perhaps more often it participates in the myth rather than being the myth. I think Star Wars is like that. And Prince of Egypt. Andy Warhol. Duchamp's urinal. Dutch

romansh, I guess I am a reincarnationist then too Dutch

Most remember hearing about the study in which 65% of 'teachers' (test subjects) were willing to shock a unseen 'learner' to a max of 450 volts regardless of what complaining or screaming they heard. But that was the baseline study. Stanley Milgrim used 20-40 variants about which I had never heard. Common knowledge about this experiment is that it proves that people take orders. As related in this story at Radiolab http://www.radiolab.org/2012/jan/09/whos-bad/ the study proves something else because every time a 'teacher' was told they had no choice the test subject stopped participating and said"I do have a choice. I quit." A more studied conclusion of all the experiments is that we will harm others if we think it is for a higher purpose - even if that "higher purpose" is "Science".

You are right, you should not complain, you should be very, very, very angry. I used to have a punching a bag for such moments and I once took a baseball bat (had to buy one at the thrift store) and smashed up a big wooden trunk. Anger can also be directed in more productive ways. I think anger is a useful emotion and that complaints are mental measurements. Asking how does this stack up to that? The question I have been taught to ask is what can I do in the next moment that's good in my eyes, that's enjoyable for me in my context. It would be hard to go drive my BMW z4. But I can do something that I enjoy. and 'they' tell me that the more often I make the choice for joy in the next moment the more the next moment is enjoyable whether I made a 'good' choice or not. The next moment is the one I have to focus on rather than regret that my mental disorder was not diagnosed earlier or that my parents were. . .. I now have no control over those past possibilities. Asking whether to feed the white wolf or black wolf is useful if it doesn't create judgments and measurements. Feed your joy and feed your growth. We should be trained so that when hearing a certain sound we will change our mood to expectancy instead of dread. I recommend Ken Medema's song "Your call O God." http://kenmedema.com/index.aspx Take care Dutch

Evolution of God, Robert Wright

Myron, We do have more female voices than usual. (Females don't equal conservative; it is another reference) I thought that would be a good thing. I have enjoyed this time with you. I hope that in the future you will rejoin us again. Dutch

I do think the trinity is difficult to assert these days, and for me, the trinity hasn't always existed, It is not timeless. I have been reading "Evolution of God" which I agree with generally. God is evolving. Jesus becomes part of that. Then Christ evolves. I see them as stages of evolution and I can't assert that they have always been one. Jesus is a specific historic figure and needs to serve as a focal point. I could see soma's "Christ Consciousness" as our experience of God. dutch

Jakob Boehme, the first modern German theologian, 1575-1625, would agree that God is the source of everything: including whatever we call Good and whatever we call Evil. It is not two aspects of a dualistic god. It just the fact that all of creation is grounded in the same origin. Having a second god in competition to God is not monotheism Boehme is my favorite but there are many others who would say that God is not two sided or three sided or 27 sided. Good vs Evil is a human construct. We like dualism but I don't think it is accurate to project that need onto Ultimate Reality. Many passages in the Hebrew Bible recognize that God is the source of both good and harm. Dutch

Raven, It was a wonderfully open and honest description of your prayer life. thank you. Dutch

Being impatient here is what I found John Last Supper, before passover 14 Nisan evening Crucifixion 14 Nisan afternoon Sacrifice of Lambs Synoptics Last Supper, Passover 15 Nisan evening Crucifixion 15 Nisan 9:00am However http://catholic-reso...Jesus-Death.htm AND http://bible.org/que...-passover-seder A long discussion of the history of the debate. It seems that either one or the other or both are true. Which is the best way a story can be told. Dutch

I don't think there is a need to make them agree. In John's account Jesus is the Paschal lamb, the way people were saved in Egypt.. In the Synoptics Jesus' narrative is connected to the people who remember and celebrate Exodus.

The synoptics use a 500 year old calendar and John used a brand new one a hundred years later. What is the evidence? I would think it would be easier to remember which day during passover things happened rather than the day irrespective of of passover. John had theological and political statments he wanted to make which I believe had a strong influence on how he organized the Gospel. Dutch

Based on my experience with Mormons in providing care for a family on the other side of the country and other contacts my conclusion is that exaggerated attacks obscure the fact that Mormons are caring, responsible participants in community life. I disagree with Mitt but he was an asset in Mass and the country survived his father as a governor without any dire events destroying the soul of America. Dutch

The Gospel of Victoria Winters might be lost in the other salacious ancient gospels. Put these salacious gospels in the hands of TV writers and we could have a TV series to rival "revenge." Dutch

Extremists are extremists. They do not have control of a reasonable conversation. Criminal acts deserve criminal investigations. Evil people are evil people and not part of the of the solution They do not control the boundaries of the conversation.The Phelps gang does not represent any side in the conversation. about GLBTQ rights. I know that Jessica is not alone. Atheists have coming out stories and bias crimes committed against them just as GLBTs do I have read these accounts on atheists web sites. But if only the extremes are permitted voice in a zero-sum game and the middle is excluded there will not be support as there was in Jessica's case. There are atheist who are working towards cooperation in interfaith alliances. Theirs is another option. As I have said elsewhere I do not think the goal should be to provoke bad behavior but to foster positive relations. I don't see this conversation about table grace in restaurants helpful. Season of Reason posters should be wherever Nativity scenes are on civic property.Maybe a scene of Thomas Edison's lab or Ben Franklin and his kite.It is a loss when we can't live in a pluralistic society without hiding our identity. In a Calvinistically stripped society Good without God ads would have to come down Game theory is at work here. I think it is better to let the number of atheists increase through friendly discussion rather than arguments truncated by logical boobytraps. Look at the Mormon campaign to portray themselves as regular people. Soon there will be a critical mass and atheist will not be persecuted as much. It is a shame that the simple elimination of the first and last lines of the banner wouldn't be acceptable which would put the banner in a group of ubiquitous motivational posters. But the courts have a higher standard for schools and I believe that even though the banner has been in place for many years claiming it is a cultural icon and not a religious statement is not a valid argument in a school. Dutch

Gretta Vosper writes prayers and poems without God. http://grettavosper.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=193&Itemid=92

Christian privilege is a serious issue that Americans need to understand but I am tired of the argument about public display of religious expression. First it seems to be argument between the poles of the spectrum in which we in the middle struggle to get out of. Second, it is not a healthy discussion because it does not lead to wholeness in the future. The extreme positions are trying to make it zero-sum: someone wins and someone loses. America is not zero-sum, neither is the best of Christianity and atheism. When one wins, every one wins. But this argument which so often ends with &^$#@ on a t-shirt seems to lead to a societal desert not unlike the knowledge of the universe being reduced to eliminative materialistic version of science. I think that makes us all poorer. Dutch

Hi, Houston, would you call what you are doing part of the house church movement? Dutch

Learning to discern intent is important in child development and in our criminal justice system. Table grace in a restaurant and %^@ on a T-shirt deliberately worn anywhere is provoke negative reaction are so far apart in the nature of the intention. I thought this might be the logical fallacy of "argument of force" but I learned that it is a logical boobytrap to stop reasoning. Whatever the case - %^@ ends the discussion for me. Dutch

Seeing intent where there is none and insisting on a literal reading of the Bible - sounds like Fundamentaism to me. Dutch

My mother's family considers grace such an integral part of the meal that it would be like eating part of the meal in the car if they didn't say grace when the meal was about to be served or was served. I understand this to refer to a particular kind of public prayer not any public prayer. Dutch

Why don't you eat your appetizer and have your drink in the car?

I wish we could speak for ourselves and not put words in their mouths