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murmsk last won the day on June 26 2019

murmsk had the most liked content!

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  1. I think we can all agree that conservative religion in general and Christianity in particular has been on the wrong side of history at virtually every crossroads. Whether it has been women, racial, sexual identity or semitism the conservative church has always chosen oppression over love. So why is the church still around? I like to think it is because more moderate church sees it and pushes for social change and support for the less advantaged and eventually win out. I am old enough to remember segregation and remember our church sending marchers to Selma. I am old enough to have spoke to my grandmother who with her church fought for the vote. Romansh is correct in saying you can not force people to not discriminate but you can force the underpinnings to change with the expectation that as time and generations pass the world be be a better more fair place. steve
  2. Religion whether it be Christianity or any other tradition is simply a tool for humans to strive for a better world . Simple as that! steve
  3. "science is not in the proof business." this is exactly right but is is in the knowledge business. This is a book my Phd Chemist mostly atheist father read and recommends . It mostly views religion from social science standpoint. steve
  4. this was obviously an advertisement for his book. Its too bad he hasn't shared a little more about himself and his perspective. Much of what he says has some relevance for the bible literalists but ignores the fact that all Christians and maybe even most Christians don't fall in his neat characterization. steve
  5. I am late to this discussion but would like to chime in. First...On the discussion of science and medicine. Physicians are not scientists and seldom produce science. We live in the world of anecdote... we are practitioners , we try and use the science of others to provide the best outcomes for our patients but don't confuse that with science. As a general rule medical science is done in the schools and research centers. Second.... Science is not a way of knowing its a way of finding things out. Religion is not a way of knowing its a way of living. Knowing is an abstract sense that combines science, anecdote, belief into a workable pathway of relative truth. steve
  6. This book might be of some interest Why Science Does Not Disprove God https://www.amazon.com/Why-Science-Does-Not-Disprove/dp/B00IA68UCG/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=science+disprove+religion&qid=1620313638&sr=8-1 steve
  7. I am convinced that in most situations labels are at best unhelpful. Often we are viewed through the labels we accept. And more importantly it seems to be human nature that when we accept a label we tend to work to become that label. s
  8. My journey came out of my need for consistency . Being a person of science, dismissing data simply because it doesn’t fit a desired conclusion rubs against everything that is me. So if i am going to read the Bible I can’t ignore the more distasteful sections ie: support of slavery and its view of woman for example. I needed a way to read the Bible and view of Jesus and God that is 100% consistent whether in reading about love or that woman shouldn’t speak in church. Authors like Markus Borg encouraged my view that is now common in progressive circles that the Bible are a group of writings, songs and poems written by faithful people, and reflects their views of God, Jesus, history and life. So where does that leave me with respect to influences?? s
  9. I have found meaning in Markus Borgs description of God as being “something more” s
  10. My sense is that the bible is a literary collection of songs, poems,stories and history written by a faithful people. The concept of sin had very little meaning for me for much of my life mostly, I think, due to how it is used in many churches as an sword to keep followers in line. I always bothered me because I see some good coming out of forgiveness of sins if it is handled properly. People need to know that they can be forgiven for the mistakes they make. My current thinking on sin is that sins are nothing more than counterproductive mistakes humans make. and Original Sin is humans tendency toward hurtful thoughts and behavior many of which are remnants of our evolutionary path. Lust, selfishness, gluttony to name a few can be traced back to non-sentient animals and served them well in their society but are a problem in ours, so humans fight the urges. That, to me, is original sin. s
  11. Coming from a science background, I have always had a great deal of trouble understanding let alone accepting the thought that some people still reject evolution. Historically I have difficulty not viewing them with distain as they choose to believe something that seems to me to be utterly foolish. I had a revolation a week or so ago. In spite of the fact my degree is in chemistry I do not understand the math behind the support for the big bang. I have never seen another galaxy , i have never been to the Galápagos Islands . My point is while I have a general understanding of the theorys I have no direct knowlege that the theories are accurate. I am taking other peoples word for it. I believe the scientists! Is this much different from the new earthers who believe the theologens that say the earth is only 6000 years old? Kinda depends upon who do we put our faith. I now will try to have a bit more understanding of those who I view to be wrong. steve
  12. I am one who views the bible as the writings of a spiritual people. As such the writing reflect the attitudes, views and beliefs of that society. When asked "where did we come from" and "why did this happen" they had no science to fall back on so their answers reflected their simple observations as well as story constructs. As i have stated before, I view sin as mistakes and original sin as human flaws that drive us to make mistakes. Steve
  13. I read in the news that Marcus Borg has passed. His books were foundational to me and my spiritual understanding. With out his influence I would still be holding "CHURCH" at an arms length. Thank you Markus. steve
  14. I have a more simplistic view of sin and original sin. Sin ,to me, is nothing more than mistakes. Mistakes that hurt people, mistakes that hurt us, mistakes that hurt the environment......... Original sin, to me, are the human tendency to do those things. Selfishness, lust, dishonesty, desire to dominate....... Jesus died for our sins the way MLK died for our sins. or because of our sins. Not a blood atonement but rather a willingness to die while standing for what is right. MLK died because my forbearers gave in to human tendences to dominate, he died so I would know a different way , he died so my children might never know. (society is still working on this one) Jesus died because he his forbeares created a society rampent in injustice, he died so people of his era might know a different way, and so generations to come might never make the mistakes of our forbearers. steve
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