glintofpewter

This week I spent an hour learning about the 1982 massacre at Dos Arres, Guatemala, where all (approx 200. inhabitants) were slaughtered by government troops. Many killed with a sledge hammer to the head. But dead or not they were thrown down a well. http://www.chron.com...ere-3587668.php Then I heard of the 90 deaths, including 30 children, in Syria. http://www.npr.org/2...-a-game-changer Sunday in worship a woman gave a plug for Plant a Row for the Hungry. I thought, any little light shines brightly against such darkness. She has little or no influence in Syria or Guatemala but the food she grows feeds the hungry. Dutch

I listened to Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot by Bart Ehrman. Judas was the only disciple who understood Jesus. He helped Jesus shed his corporeal body.

And some - I never know which ones unless it is everyone on my mothers side of the family - would think that not saying grace is like not preparing the food. Saying grace for them, wherever it is, just happens - it always has. In my experience few, if any, have made a public statement, with their table grace. Just as I don't think the orthodox Jews walking to synagogue are making a public statement or that the Muslim woman wearing an hijab is making a public statement. If you have heard someone praying for the sinners in the restaurant - well that's different. Dutch

Hope I clicked on the right post by Myron.

The Gospel of Barnabas http://barnabas.net/ \ Also read wikipedia

Iran is claiming that a 1500 year old text written by an individual who lived 2000 years ago will bring down Christianity. The last Gospel of Barnabas that appeared was written in 16th century. Its true I read it on the internet.

A freight train can run over you whether or not you know where it started. After 2100 years Christianity will be little affected by such a claim. There are enough sources of doubt now to encourage anyone who wants to doubt. Provenance will be tricky but maybe Dan Brown could use it for another best seller. Dutch

If God is natural and not supernatural then how would that look. Pantheism suggests that God and the world are one. I like Wayseeker's suggestion sometime ago of God the mother pregnant with the universe - or continually in the process of birthing the universe.This is a panentheism in which God is in and through and with all of the universe but not defined by the universe, like pantheism. Panexperientialism says that all entities or occasions of experience are externally related and internally related. It seems to me that it is in our internal experiences of the universe that we access or experience God and that it is in these internal experiences that we "pray" and have the opportunity to see the possibilities that may arise out of our prayer. Dutch

A Colorado sports commentator said that the Broncos signing Manning proved that Tebowing works.

Thanks Raven

Since we are not talking about our own prayers but those of others and we are talking about the phenomenon that people don't act according to their beliefs, let me suggest that if God were supernatural there can be no miracles. The argument goes something like this. There must be an interface. Something about God must be like something in nature or God could not intervene. If you want God to put that nail into the piece of wood God will have to affect the atoms or molecules or cells for the nail to move into the wood. If God can interface with the material natural world then something about God is natural. One would have to posit that God is both part of the natural world and the supernatural world. In this view then the divide is not between the natural world and the supernatural God, the divide is between the natural part of God and the supernatural part of God. A dualistic God. Of two worlds. So if God is solely supernatural there can be no interventions. If God can intervene then God is natural or of two natures. Dutch

I have read of those who say prayer helped bring about the death of King George II and started a jeep deep in the jungle that had stranded missionaries (personally related to me). I remember the lyrics kinda," I expect the supernatural intervention of of God." I think it is hard to say what expectations someone else has when they pray.

By their definition. I missed that. Dutch

Hi, Wolf, You are most welcome as is your deliberate creativity. I look forward to our journey together. You may have discovered the extensive thread here on The Tao Te Ching 20 pages of conversation which followed the chapters in sequence. Dutch

It was the belief in an interventionist God that added religious support to the materialistic view of science. God's intervention must other than natural. Richard Foster opens his chapter on prayer: To pray is to change. Aren't we framing a very narrow definition of prayer? Dutch

Brent, I have no idea if enculturation as a topic will get more than 5 replies. It would seem to involve 'faith formation', discipleship, knowing where the church building is, knowing what to expect in worship, perhaps knowing when it is safe to say something outrageous or not. Does my short list fall into your understanding? Dutch

There are conservative and progressive forces active in churches and other institutions. Having a higher authority to give certainty to your opinion will lead you to keep your opinion longer, maybe. But I see these forces active across all human activity and thought. Use of higher authority is active on both sides of the science and religion debates. Whether it's family dysfunctional traditions, fraternal hazing, or church dogma - all appeal to higher authority to justify the continuance of bad or damaging behaviors. Dutch

I don't know how much interest a topic on enculturation would draw. A significant number of us are "Believers in Exile", deculturated?. I guess I was wondering about the common era that both arose from but I don't know how long my interest would last. However . . . let's wait and see. Dutch

Episcopalian worship used to be called 'high' and less strict orders of worship 'low'. Mainline protestants all follow a form of worship order that is similar. There will be the usual or similar call to worship, something that is or takes the place of confession, etc. I have been in worship which has little or no printed order of worship. Usually a music leader or team guide the worship rather than the instruction on paper. This too has its own order repeated every Sunday just not printed. Intellectually I am blurring the lines which is probably not helpful. In mainline churches, depending on size, the nature of liturgy depends on the pastor and the congregation. It doesn't take much of an excuse for our new pastor to try new stuff although he is probably is getting reigned in privately. Parts of Jesus Christ Superstar for Palm Sunday and a tent and God in white bath robe for camp promotion Sunday. Sometimes difficult to move to quiet times in the service. I reviewed videos yesterday of a Unity service. Little or no liturgy. closer to performer and audience than participants in worship. Liturgy draws the person in the pew into the worship. But, boy, Presbyterians in particular have high expectations for what they expect me to read a loud. Some confessional prayers read like a term paper on the injustices in the world and my personal contributions to same. I wish you luck. I don't mind reading the words but some words I just can't read. Dutch

That made me smile. Years ago in a Presbyterian Church I heard the word enculturation to mean a kind of evangelism. Enculturation is was happens however one comes to attend a church and the first part here describes it very well in a language unique to my ear. I recently learned a little about Unity which was founded in 1889. They sound a lot like this this, how they position Jesus, how they describe spiritual growth, etc. Just some observations. Dutch

In considering God or ultimate reality or ground of being there is not need for gender. When we explore our intimate and personal relationship with the Divine it is hard to avoid gender.

Is it good that people be swayed? I think the answer is yes. Their intellect having been moved then their bodies and hearts may follow. I made an intellectual decision and THEN attended a gay church for 6 months so my body and heart and the unconscious homophobia would be available to my awareness. For me it was mind first. At least that's how I experienced it. Dutch

Joseph, To many of us it doesn't matter whether there is historical evidence and in most cases people change their mind based on relationships, but there are occasionally encounters with people on the fence who are looking for additional evidence to change their evaluation of the issue. This is another bit of evidence to be considered. It has limited weight but it is part of the discussion about whether the church's attitude toward same-sex marriage is unified and eternal. Dutch

This seems to be the main point of contention. I am told the church did not have marriage rites between "a man and a woman". A pastor who has the book says that Boswell's research is impeccable. There are other intimate language in the rites which are suggestive. I just can't think of another cultural equivalent. The critics' "blood brother" seems silly to me. I haven't done that since - well I don't remember that far back. There was no property to inherit from those who took a vow of poverty. right?. In another century or two Rites uniting a man and a woman appear. Part of the church's plot to gain land because land was that the land became property of the couple not the kinship and the widow could will the land to the church which made it a huge landowner and rich and powerful. An 18th century legal reading was that these were civil unions which included a sexual relationship. The practice seems to have been limited to Eastern? Europe. That might hint at the nature and origin of this rite. Dutch

After three years of separation Diane and I are getting back together. Each on our own journey recognized some of what we contributed to chaos before the split. Plan to move in together late summer. I am happy. Dutch