glintofpewter

Paul, My references are Origins of Political Order by Francis Fukuyama and The Life and Death of Democracy by John Keane. I believe Keane is Australian. Fukuyama says that three things are necessary for a stable modern liberal democracy. The state or ruler, a rule of law, and accountability of the government to the people. Religion, in our case Christianity, is almost always essential in the development of a agreed upon concept of law (not legislation). This understanding of what is right in society was particularly strong in Europe and was a modernizing force compared to the Brahmins and their varnas in India. This law - ideas about what is right, the idea that the ruler is accountable to the ruled, that the office holders do not possess the office but serve the office for limited time - was influenced by the disciplines that came out of the Holy Orders in the middle ages, The church helped provide the understanding that if ruler's do not rule well then there was a Divine right to overthrow them. John Locke, others and the Declaration of Independence say that good government is there to guarantee that the ruler is held accountable to the law, these ideas of what is right commonly held and derived from and facilitated by Christianity. Now, today, in America, the evolution of governments has brought us to the point that the constitution is our law. Legislation and executive action are both held up and judged by the constitution. But we couldn't be here without Christianity. Keane's book starts with an effort to find the beginnings of assembly democracy. The Athenians saw their gods as participants in their society. That Athens is seen as the birth place of democracy is incomplete, too simple, and fails to recognize all that came before, and fails to see that the experiment did not affect the future development of government as we are want to believe. Incomplete because it was more of a republic, incomplete because of limited franchise, incomplete because accountability was weak. Clearly not the first because the root word for democracy is not Greek but found in the Middle East much earlier. He tracks assembly democracy from the Middle East as it moved west until it was available as a possibility in the mind of the Greeks. He uses some precise ways of evaluating different governments and concludes there were no true democracies, with universal suffrage until the early 20th century. Provocatively Keane writes on page 207-8 "Without Jesus, there would no representative government, or representative democracy, if by that is meant what many of its Christian progenitors meant: a new way of handling political power based on a lengthy list of practical principles, such as the right to resist tyranny; the civil right to petition for good government; popular elections; limited terms of office; and the abolition of monarchy, if need be by public execution." I can provide more details if needed; I am taking lots of notes. Dutch .

Ritch, Since the democracy you live under depended on Christianity for its evolution I would say that it is meaningful. Dutch

Some commentators believe that this is not a reference to himself. Dutch

That's what he thought to begin with, but the Syro-Phoenician woman made him reconsider enlarging his target audience, at least for a moment. Dutch

I know a church that adapts rock, broadway, pop songs to theer purposes. I recommend needtobreathe, particularly their early albums in which the references to Biblical themes are more obvious. their songs are more often little sermons or confessions of faith than praise music Years ago our youth group rewrote the words to "stairway to heaven" and 1 or 2 classics and performed them in church. No it wasn't our usual kind of music. Dutch

Fair Closure from the person who said they didn't like study bibles.: As result of this thread I asked for and got for Christmas "The New Oxford Annotated Bible," NRSV version w/ Apocrypha, College Edition. Dutch

Religion is the vision of something which stands beyond,and within, the passing flux of immediate things; something which is real, and yet waiting to be realized; something which is a remote possibility, and yet the greatest of present facts; something that gives meaning to all that passes , and yet eludes apprehension; something whose possession is the final good, and yet is beyond all reach; something which is the ultimate ideal, and the hopeless quest. Science and the modern World, Whitehead, in Process Theology, A guide for the Perplexed.

Can't imagine how.

Eldred, It's wonderful to have you here. Dutch

Well, I can stop my posting. George says it well.

Jesus meets us where we are and asks us to move in his direction. He is correct in his observation about camels and needle. We can only operate in our sphere of influence. I do what I can and could do more. Affluence is not my problem. For me it is self discipline, being willing to yield myself. Dutch

Good one Joseph

Joke for the day: A highway patrolman pulled alongside a speeding car on the freeway. Glancing at the car, he was astounded to see that the blonde behind the wheel was knitting! The trooper cranked down his window and yelled, "PULL OVER!" "No," the blonde yelled back, "It's a scarf!"

Four worms were placed into four separate jars. The first worm was put into a container of alcohol. The second worm was put into a container of cigarette smoke. The third worm was put into a container of chocolate syrup. The fourth worm was put into a container of good clean soil. At the conclusion of the sermon, the Minister reported the following results: The first worm in alcohol - Dead. The second worm in cigarette smoke - Dead. Third worm in chocolate syrup - Dead. Fourth worm in good clean soil - Alive. So the Minister asked the congregation, "What can you learn from this demonstration?" Maxine was setting in the back, quickly raised her hand and said, "As long as you drink, smoke and eat chocolate, you won't have worms!"

Mike, did you read King Elfland's Daughter by Dunsany? That made someone's top ten list for all-time best. Paul and Jenell, thanks for reminding me of jean Auel. I read most if not all of her books. They would be enjoyable a second time around. Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series seems as engrossing as the Enders Game series by Orson Scott Card. Tempting. Terry Brookes Shannara series - that's more than I want to get involved in. Wikipedia has a "reading plan" for new readers! River God by Wilbur Smith and the Hyksos invasion - my kind of book. I have only watched mysteries and rarely read them. I would watch Agatha Christie whenever she's on. Lev Grossman's The Magicians (and sequel, The Magician King) - these are at the top of my list after reading the reviews. My Uncle recommended Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry - way too serious. Thanks all! Dutch

I agree, Neon. Here is a more 'official' statement: I am always amazed at how powerful humans are that we can prevent God's will from bringing more human beings into existence. BOGGLES THE MIND! Catholic Answers Dutch

any Catholics among us have the answer?

Yvonne, that's wonderful. I have friend who did the same thing. You and he have something in common. You both have a very real contemplative part of your life which is revealed in your thought and conversations. Dutch

Remember the twin case where the Catholic couple would not intervene to save one of the twins and were willing to allow both to die? Passive vs active in the life and death situations. Is the prohibition against birth control also a remnant of the "sex is only for procreation not pleasure" attitude? Dutch

It is the passive versus active, I think. Allowing God - in this case nature, not God - to run its course versus actively interfering with nature. In the overworked rationalizations of the RC church it it fails to distinguish between God and nature. It also fails to distinguish between a right to life, which does not exist in my opinion, and a right to be treated with dignity. Dutch

I have to use up my holidays at work so I am taking off Feb 21-26 and planning to read a few books - instead of surfing . I have lots of non-fiction books on my list. What book of fiction would you want to read right now if you had the time? Dutch

from Don Scrooby's blog http://seeingmoreclearly.blogspot.com/2012/01/part-2-process-theology-god-nurtures.html ... God can be imagined as an intimate, creative and freedom supporting parent who says to her/his child, 'Surprise me, do something I hadn't fully expected so that together we can bring about something new and exciting.' " Process Theology - A Guide for the Perplexed, Bruce Epperly

Therefore I think it seems required of me, and my Duty, as a Man, to pay Divine Regards to SOMETHING. .Benjamin Franklin

Yvonne, Wow!

A party just for the heck of it? No iconic event? Just to celebrate being - Australian?! Sounds like a laid back approach to national holidays.