Cancel Culture?

[PaulS]

10 hours ago, Burl said:

Listen to the black community.  They are fed up with white people patronizing them with what white Democrats think is best for Black people.

Says the white man telling others what all black people think about white Democrats. 😂

Which black community are you referring to Burl?  The one in Oregon or the one in Alabama?  The Black Power black community or the black community that instead argues for fairer representation.  My point being, there is no singular ‘black community’ and I think that the fact that you can point and say ‘they’ when referring to the numerous people of African American heritage may be part of the reason you don’t understand what many black people are trying to say about these tributes to white supremacy.

[JosephM]

On 7/25/2020 at 5:45 AM, PaulS said:

Secondly, we are simply not talking only about ‘history’ here.  There’s a reason communities don’t display statues of figures like Hitler, even though he was a major historic figure.  Statues are displayed to ‘honour’ those represented.  When you honour people who promoted, and even fought to retain the right to enslave a certain group of people, then there is more to it than just history.  If it was just history, capture it in books or move memorials to museums with an explanation of all sides of the discussion.

That's right and it should be an expression of the community to determine what statues are displayed on public property and not a violent minority removing them by violence.

As far as private property, we fought for freedom of speech and i am not bothered by one who wishes to display a confederate flag or statue or picture of Hitler though i would never vote for such a thing on community property. And in that case i would respect the vote of the majority.

On 7/25/2020 at 5:45 AM, PaulS said:

You ask about the lyrics - well in my mind they are an inspiration, not a dogma, about considering what harm we may be doing to others in our lives and to consider how we can cause less harm (no harm would be preferable).  Would it cause you harm to remove statues honouring those who fought to keep blacks enslaved?  You really couldn’t get your history any other way?  And in the process, you wouldn’t feel that if removing statues helps in any way to further heal race relations, as is being asked for by many, that you may be contributing something positive to the conversation?

No harm to me either way but the point is obviously that the community at the time felt it appropriate whether to honor someone or just as a historical marker and there is a more peaceful way of changing it. Will you support violence to remove those statues over community rulings just because it in your opinion should be removed?

On 7/25/2020 at 5:45 AM, PaulS said:

Of course defining harm is an opinion.  Surely you understand that’s why so many hold different views about what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’ in life.  We all hold different views but our challenge is to get along in the best way possible.  Could removing statues and naming rights of those who wanted to harm black people be a step forward for our countries - I think so.

Agreed, however it must be done peaceably not forceably.

[Burl]

12 hours ago, PaulS said:

Says the white man telling others what all black people think about white Democrats. 😂

Which black community are you referring to Burl?  The one in Oregon or the one in Alabama?  The Black Power black community or the black community that instead argues for fairer representation.  My point being, there is no singular ‘black community’ and I think that the fact that you can point and say ‘they’ when referring to the numerous people of African American heritage may be part of the reason you don’t understand what many black people are trying to say about these tributes to white supremacy.

That’s the point, Paul.  There is no singular Black community yet a two white Democrats astroturfed the PAC BLM, Inc with money from a white billionaire and claim to represent all Black People.  The money they raise goes to Biden; a rich white racist while doing nothing that helps Black lives.

[Burl]

14 hours ago, PaulS said:

I think I have to agree with Thormas here Burl.  You do seem to be trying a tad too hard to tar the Democratic Party with an anti-black brush.  You really believe the Democratic Party fought civil rights tooth and nail into the 60’s?  Except maybe for that one time the Democratic President named JFK actually created and introduced the Civil Rights Act - the most-far reaching act of legislation supporting racial equality in American history.  Yep, sounds like those Democrats really had it in for African Americans. 😂

This is part of a bill By Rep. Gomert demanding that the Democratic Party be cancelled.

It’s more of an ironic dig at the Democratic support of Cancel Culture than serious legislation, but the facts are true.  

[JosephM]

On 7/24/2020 at 2:37 PM, Elen1107 said:

Ok, what if this was done to Americans. There was some flag and some statues that basically stood for the enslavement of Americans and that the enslavement of Americans was ok and just a fine thing to do. This flag was on the top of most state capital buildings, public squares and was being hung on a number of your neighbors front porches. How would you feel about it then?

I would vote to have it removed. If i lost the vote, i would let it go or if so inclined work toward garnering more votes to have it removed peaceably in the future.

 

On 7/24/2020 at 2:37 PM, Elen1107 said:

You say that, "if anything acts as a reminder of the past not to be repeated". Thing is this guy, and many of these statues, are set up to show that this was a really great guy and a real and true hero. He's a wonderful man and someone who should be respected and honored. Not a symbol of how this and these things should "not be repeated". There is a real difference here.

You take it out of context by quoting a partial sentence. (a no-no on this site)  What i said "A statue if historical, does no harm to me and if anything acts as a reminder of the past not to be repeated." Besides what i am advocating is non-violence change by the majority rather than the minority who violently destroy them and encourage it

 

On 7/24/2020 at 2:37 PM, Elen1107 said:

What if it was the Nazi flag that was being hung half of everywhere you had to go to get through your daily life? Or statues of Hitler, making him look like such a wonderful and glorious person? Would you be ok with that? It's "free speech" on the same principals that you qualify it.

There is a peaceful way for change and a violent way. While i am not bothered or harmed by a statue of Hitler, i would vote to remove it on community property of which i am a part. If it was on private property and not against the law,  then i respect the right of the other and it does me no harm and if it does harm to you then it seems to me, you need to get over it or move away or work to change the law.

 

On 7/24/2020 at 2:37 PM, Elen1107 said:

I'm assuming that you served in the armed services. Thank you for your service. Can I ask when you served and what conflict(s) you might have served in?

We have free speech in this country, but there are also limits to that free speech. Things like; criminal threatening, inciting a riot, slander, defamation of character, bearing false witness and hate speech. If a statue or a flag rubs or touches on all these things, should it be flown or left standing in public?

Vietnam Conflict. Joined voluntarily in Jan 1965.

Yes there are limits to free speech and expression. Limits are also placed on community property and on some private property by laws or ordinances. (ie: in my community you can't put up signs on your property, put up a mailbox, hang clothes outside, or keep a boat in your driveway to mention a few.) I signed up when i bought so it is a community ordinance that limits what i can do. I have no problem with legal limits and working within the law to change them if desired or necessary. Should the flag you mention be flown or left stranding in public? It's up to the the community and the laws of the land, not just me or my opinion.

On 7/24/2020 at 2:37 PM, Elen1107 said:

I agree with you here. Question is, what things are making ethnicity and heritage stand out and become more important than our common humanity? Is it the objections to the confederate flag, or the flag itself?

In my view, individual and ethnic teaching and education. A pew research poll shows that Blacks place more importance on ethnicity than other ethnic backgrounds. We Italians were once in that boat in the US as were the Irish and other groups and there was much violence. Peaceful assimilation into society requires that your ethnic background not be more important than the society you are assimilating into. Otherwise, it seems to me,  peace will not come as 'them' and 'us' refuses to exist as one.

[Elen1107]

9 hours ago, JosephM said:

I would vote to have it removed. If i lost the vote, i would let it go or if so inclined work toward garnering more votes to have it removed peaceably in the future.

 

I also would choose to do things in a peaceful manner. I don't think that I myself would participate in knocking down one of those statues. I do understand some of the feelings of those who are doing it however. I don't consider it violence either. I don't think that one can do violence to an inanimate object, at least not real violence.

9 hours ago, JosephM said:

You take it out of context by quoting a partial sentence. (a no-no on this site)  What i said "A statue if historical, does no harm to me and if anything acts as a reminder of the past not to be repeated." Besides what i am advocating is non-violence change by the majority rather than the minority who violently destroy them and encourage it

 

Sorry, I didn't know-know. Where is that posted?

Like I've said I don't really consider that to be violence. Like I've also said, I like you would prefer a different method of removing a statue. I have wondered if perhaps it's the only way people feel it could be done or real national and majority attention could be called to the subject.

I keep thinking that one of the only laws that I really have a problem with in this country is the waist-band seatbelts on pregnant people. It's the law in most states and a person is technically breaking the law if they don't wear it. I've talked about it, written about it, tried to find people who could design and engineer something better and different. I've even talked to police officers who have said if they pulled someone over and they were pregnant and didn't have that part of the belt on, that they wouldn't do anything and wouldn't press charges. It's been decades and nothing has happened. Would I deface a statue or something in order to save a bunch of babies lives? Maybe I would. But there isn't a statue anywhere that I know of that would serve this purpose, so it's kind of a mute point. 

9 hours ago, JosephM said:

There is a peaceful way for change and a violent way. While i am not bothered or harmed by a statue of Hitler, i would vote to remove it on community property of which i am a part. If it was on private property and not against the law,  then i respect the right of the other and it does me no harm and if it does harm to you then it seems to me, you need to get over it or move away or work to change the law.

 

Would you feel the same way about a statue of Hitler if your own mother practically starved to death under his hand and his leadership?

How do you get over your mother being more than half starved to death?

How do you get over your mother being condemned to a life of poverty and servitude because of someone or somethings?

9 hours ago, JosephM said:

Vietnam Conflict. Joined voluntarily in Jan 1965.

 

Well, ... WELCOME HOME !!!!! ... I don't feel like you folks got near enough of a Welcome Home ... So Welcome Home ! .... (hope that's ok)

9 hours ago, JosephM said:

Vietnam Conflict. Joined voluntarily in Jan 1965.

 

Some statues I'm thinking could be considered hate speech. I myself might consider a statue of Hitler, hate speech. Hate speech is a federal law. I don't know,... maybe I need to think about it some more .

9 hours ago, JosephM said:

In my view, individual and ethnic teaching and education. A pew research poll shows that Blacks place more importance on ethnicity than other ethnic backgrounds. We Italians were once in that boat in the US as were the Irish and other groups and there was much violence. Peaceful assimilation into society requires that your ethnic background not be more important than the society you are assimilating into. Otherwise, it seems to me,  peace will not come as 'them' and 'us' refuses to exist as one.

I myself believe in a balance between being culturally-centric and integration. I think that people should be able to do both, whether it's for a half and hour or half a lifetime or more. I think both have something to offer and that both are very, very valuable.

[PaulS]

12 hours ago, JosephM said:

That's right and it should be an expression of the community to determine what statues are displayed on public property and not a violent minority removing them by violence.

I think for the umpteenth time now - I'm not and have never referred to the violence and destruction as a legit way forward.  Violence and destruction doesn't even enter the definition of cancel culture.  I have several times now tried to keep the thread focused on the issue rather than let it be distracted by those who are breaking the law and committing violence.  Can we maybe finally park that element.  Violent vandals do not own the discussion, but they are a distraction to it.

Quote

As far as private property, we fought for freedom of speech and i am not bothered by one who wishes to display a confederate flag or statue or picture of Hitler though i would never vote for such a thing on community property. And in that case i would respect the vote of the majority.

The average representation of blacks in the US community is 13.4%.  Hard to imagine them winning any majority vote alone.

Quote

No harm to me either way but the point is obviously that the community at the time felt it appropriate whether to honor someone or just as a historical marker and there is a more peaceful way of changing it. Will you support violence to remove those statues over community rulings just because it in your opinion should be removed?

These statues and memorials were never placed just as historical markers, they were only ever placed to honor those they represent and what they stood for.

The community at the time were racist, so who cares that they thought white supremacy was appropriate.  It's not.  

Yes, there are peaceful ways of changing it - like New Orleans did.  But again, sigh, those who are committing violence don't own the discussion.  Please, look past them at the issue.

No, again, I don't support violence, although I must say, we do pick and choose about when we see breaking the law and committing acts of destruction as noble and when we don't.  It's usually looking back that a final view is formed - history is written by the victors.

[PaulS]

10 hours ago, Burl said:

That’s the point, Paul.  There is no singular Black community yet a two white Democrats astroturfed the PAC BLM, Inc with money from a white billionaire and claim to represent all Black People.  The money they raise goes to Biden; a rich white racist while doing nothing that helps Black lives.

Conspiracy theories and distraction seem to abound in the US.  I would suggest trying to stick with the issue.  But each to their own.

[Burl]

19 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Conspiracy theories and distraction seem to abound in the US.  I would suggest trying to stick with the issue.  But each to their own.

“Destroying America will be the culmination of my life’s work. I am going to bring down the United States by funding black hate groups. We will put them into a mental trap and make them blame white people. The black community is the easiest to manipulate.” ~ George Soros (interview with German Bild, September 2014)

[Elen1107]

27 minutes ago, Burl said:

“Destroying America will be the culmination of my life’s work. I am going to bring down the United States by funding black hate groups. We will put them into a mental trap and make them blame white people. The black community is the easiest to manipulate.” ~ George Soros (interview with German Bild, September 2014)

I don't blame people for their heritage or even their parents. I believe there is even something in Ezekiel about this, "A child shall not be held responsible for their parent's sin and a parent shall not be held responsible for their child's sin".  (I'm quoting from memory here, but that's it as I remember it )

I understand that statement to be a fraud and a hoax.

Fact check: George Soros did not say he would fund “Black Hate groups”

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-soros-hate-groups-idUSKBN23C2OQ

 

[Elen1107]

Fact check

Some people will say anything about anyone or any group of people if they think it will get them what they want. (It doesn't get them what they want, in fact quite and most completely and totally the opposite, but they think it will, so here we go...)

Some people will even say that women, or females, (to include children/girls in this statement) are not created in the image of God.

They say that it is only the female who sinned and not the rest of persons.

They will say this to repress and oppress females and to take away their voice.

They will say this as if they are quoting Genesis and as if it is the "word of God"

They will attribute this to Paul, a first century preacher, whose words are also considered to be "the word of God"

How long can such lies last and defame and deride more than half the human population without being fact checked and corrected?

How much harm can it do and how much pain does it and has it caused?

I suppose this comment would be better posted on another comment thread that is currently active in this forum, but the question of factchecking has come up, so I'm posting it here. Apologies if it really should be posted somewhere else. 

Thanks for reading 

 

[PaulS]

1 hour ago, Burl said:

“Destroying America will be the culmination of my life’s work. I am going to bring down the United States by funding black hate groups. We will put them into a mental trap and make them blame white people. The black community is the easiest to manipulate.” ~ George Soros (interview with German Bild, September 2014)

Like I said, conspiracy theories seem to abound in the US and there is no shortage of individuals pushing a false narrative to suit their argument.  

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-soros-hate-groups/fact-check-george-soros-did-not-say-he-would-fund-black-hate-groups-idUSKBN23C2OQ

[thormas]

11 hours ago, PaulS said:

These statues and memorials were never placed just as historical markers, they were only ever placed to honor those they represent and what they stood for.

The community at the time were racist, so who cares that they thought white supremacy was appropriate.  It's not.  

Exactly and what they represented was the support of slavery of other human beings.

[thormas]

11 hours ago, PaulS said:

Conspiracy theories and distraction seem to abound in the US.  I would suggest trying to stick with the issue.  But each to their own.

They do indeed, especially in certain (Republican) circles.

Thank the gods of politics that the 'other side' (the Dems) don't need conspiracy theories, they just listen the the trumpster: "person, woman, man, camera, tv."

And don't forget the crowd size from day 1. This stuff can't be made up as it is the sad reality of the orange man.

 

[thormas]

22 hours ago, JosephM said:

In my view, individual and ethnic teaching and education. A pew research poll shows that Blacks place more importance on ethnicity than other ethnic backgrounds. We Italians were once in that boat in the US as were the Irish and other groups and there was much violence. Peaceful assimilation into society requires that your ethnic background not be more important than the society you are assimilating into. Otherwise, it seems to me,  peace will not come as 'them' and 'us' refuses to exist as one.

This statement misses the point:

the Italians and the Irish were..........white. After 'a while' it became easier and easier to assimilate because they looked liked everyone else - they were WHITE. However, it is also obvious that some Italians and Sicilians greatly valued their ethnicity for decades after the boats as did some Irish - something that becomes obvious every St. Patrick's Day.  This has waned as time has gone on but no one, consciously or unconsciously, was systematically stacking the desk against the Italians and the Irish for 400+ years.

Black men and women are not white and indisputable arguments have been made (acceptable by any fair minded person) that there has been systemic (i.e. built into society) 'racism' against blacks for centuries. The racism begins with the 'introduction' of black men and women to America ............as slaves. Of course they have placed importance on ethnicity (their shared group): they were not brought here (from their homelands) to be assimilated; when freed, they were still not allow to assimilate by many whites especially in certain states; Jim Crow never let them assimilate; anti-civil rights did not ease their way for assimilation; George Wallace prevented their assimilate; the KKK actively prevented any assimilation; and, the indiscriminate stopping (and targeting) of black men by police and the brutal treatment of blacks does not shout assimilation. Even the greater vulnerability to Covid - as opposed to the Irish or Italians - speaks to not being equally assimilated into the American society. 

Peaceful assimilation into society happens only when that society and its people allow, encourage and let happen the true assimilation of others into that society. 

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by thormas

[Elen1107]

49 minutes ago, thormas said:

They do indeed, especially in certain (Republican) circles.

Thank the gods of politics that the 'other side' (the Dems) don't need conspiracy theories, they just listen the the trumpster: "person, woman, man, camera, tv."

And don't forget the crowd size from day 1. This stuff can't be made up as it is the sad reality of the orange man.

 

There's a book being supported here on the PC website called, 'The Spiritual Danger of Donald Trump'. It looks like it might be a good and interesting read.

https://progressivechristianity.org/resources/the-spiritual-danger-of-donald-trump/

[thormas]

3 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

There's a book being supported here on the PC website called, 'The Spiritual Danger of Donald Trump'. It looks like it might be a good and interesting read.

https://progressivechristianity.org/resources/the-spiritual-danger-of-donald-trump/

I haven't read it but most of us know the trumpster is a 'danger' on many levels to us as individuals and as Americans (and the world).  

[Elen1107]

8 hours ago, thormas said:

I haven't read it but most of us know the trumpster is a 'danger' on many levels to us as individuals and as Americans (and the world).  

I wake up every day thanking Heaven for term limits. 

[thormas]

1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

I wake up every day thanking Heaven for term limits. 

Good one and if 'he' loses and refuses to leave, he'll be shown the door ..........

[Elen1107]

8 minutes ago, thormas said:

Good one and if 'he' loses and refuses to leave, he'll be shown the door ..........

Has anyone ever done that? Refused to leave when they have been voted out of office?

[thormas]

8 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Has anyone ever done that? Refused to leave when they have been voted out of office?

Refused to leave? No.

[Elen1107]

On 7/27/2020 at 11:41 AM, thormas said:

I haven't read it but most of us know the trumpster is a 'danger' on many levels to us as individuals and as Americans (and the world).  

I keep thinking about his having the protesters teargassed off the street so he could get a photo-op in front of a church.

A reporter had to ask him like 5 times whether he ever did what he said he could do concerning grouping and being a celebrity, before he would give him an answer.

They say that the American creed is based on Christian foundations.

Seems like the dumpster never heard of the following verse, even though he stands there with a bible in his hand:

1 Timothy 5-2 Treat older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

Nope he just missed or skipped that one.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Elen1107

[thormas]

13 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I keep thinking about his having the protesters teargassed off the street so he could get a photo-op in front of a church.

A reporter had to ask him like 5 times whether he ever did what he said he could do concerning grouping and being a celebrity, before he would give him an answer.

They say that the American creed is based on Christian foundations.

Seems like the dumpster never heard of the following verse, even though he stands there with a bible in his hand:

1 Timothy 5-2 Treat older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

Nope he just missed or skipped that one.

I love it: the trumpster is also the dumpster !!!!!!!!!

He seems to have skipped all the verses ..........

[Elen1107]

8 hours ago, thormas said:

I love it: the trumpster is also the dumpster !!!!!!!!!

He seems to have skipped all the verses ..........

😄 

Well he seems to have heard of one of these:

Romans 13:1ESV : Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.

Titus 3:1 ESV : Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work

1 Peter 2:13 : Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.

Problem is, he thinks this just pertains to everyone else and not to him. I've heard some of the state governors and senators call him out and let him know in no uncertain terms that he cannot do things that are un-Constitutional and unlawful.

Wonder how the Jews and a lot of the allied nations felt about these verses during the Nazi occupation of Europe.

Dumpster!!! Maybe we should  use d's insdead of t's . . . 😄 

[thormas]

6 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

😄 

Well he seems to have heard of one of these:

Romans 13:1ESV : Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.

Titus 3:1 ESV : Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work

1 Peter 2:13 : Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.

Problem is, he thinks this just pertains to everyone else and not to him. I've heard some of the state governors and senators call him out and let him know in no uncertain terms that he cannot do things that are un-Constitutional and unlawful.

Wonder how the Jews and a lot of the allied nations felt about these verses during the Nazi occupation of Europe.

Dumpster!!! Maybe we should  use d's insdead of t's . . . 😄 

Actually he probably never heard of the above verses - he just wings it based on what is best for 'donald' and lets the chips and the people fall where they may.