Cancel Culture?

[thormas]

59 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Depends on who you are polling. If what you say is the case then take it up with the community for a vote. I will abide with my community wishes here.

Yet you didn't state that when you made your false claim that "...Americans and a majority i might add want to retain these things."  Not! 

Are you sharing the trumpeter's private polls which shown him winning everywhere? 

 

As previously mentioned this is not simply an individual community vote but a vote that impacts the nation. Let's put it on the November ballot and see what happens - unless of course the trumpster delays the election 😷 and/or stops the mail in vote even though he and his family will vote absentee and mail their ballots.

Such hypocrisy, such fear, such an unAmerican thing to do........................and this from the president. 

[PaulS]

4 hours ago, JosephM said:

Depends on who you are polling. If what you say is the case then take it up with the community for a vote. I will abide with my community wishes here.

 

Now, will you rely on a simple majority Joseph (as you have said, that doesn't work when it comes to electing Presidents) or should your community voting be weighted to give justified bias to others?

[PaulS]

7 hours ago, JosephM said:

We Americans and a majority i might add want to retain these things. I hear your claim of harm and hurt and perhaps you may or may not understand what is going on behind the scenes but this isn't all about statues and monuments. We could cave in to it but that is not the real issue nor will it bring healing. Hurt and the harm spoken of is internal. The statues only have the power you give to them and it will not end there, in my view.

A majority wanted Hillary elected over Trump, but that wasn't fair you say - you preferred the weighted voting system where some votes count more than others.  So why is it fair to blacks that in this instance the simple majority want to retain these things (if that claim is accurate)?  Wouldn't weighted voting perhaps be appropriate so they would have a better voice instead of drowned out by majority whites who don't want change?

I am certain your race relations there go beyond statues and monuments, but dealing with statues and monuments is one relatively easy step forward that you can take to help bridge the divide and help with the healing.  I think the fact that you think it is 'caving in' to agree to remove the statues suggests something else may be affecting your view on the matter.

I disagree with it being as simple as the statues only having the power you give to them - clearly the statues send a message to the community and in this case the message is "we don't care if you don't like a monument of somebody who fought for slavery - our reasons for wanting the display (purely historical purposes!) is more important than the hurt it gives you".

[thormas]

1 hour ago, PaulS said:

I am certain your race relations there go beyond statues and monuments, but dealing with statues and monuments is one relatively easy step forward that you can take to help bridge the divide and help with the healing.  I think the fact that you think it is 'caving in' to agree to remove the statues suggests something else may be affecting your view on the matter.

Bingo!

[JosephM]

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

Now, will you rely on a simple majority Joseph (as you have said, that doesn't work when it comes to electing Presidents) or should your community voting be weighted to give justified bias to others?

Communities have their own charter and way to change which is not bound to the constitutional system of electing the US president. I'm okay with that.

[JosephM]

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

A majority wanted Hillary elected over Trump, but that wasn't fair you say - you preferred the weighted voting system where some votes count more than others.  So why is it fair to blacks that in this instance the simple majority want to retain these things (if that claim is accurate)?  Wouldn't weighted voting perhaps be appropriate so they would have a better voice instead of drowned out by majority whites who don't want change?

Yes, i agree with our constitutional system for the election of the president . Every government official on both sides swears up front to uphold the constitution of the US. If things don't go your way, change the constitution or live with it. State and local governments have their own system and if one doesn't like it they can try to change it within the law or move to another state that is more in line with their thinking.

 

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

I am certain your race relations there go beyond statues and monuments, but dealing with statues and monuments is one relatively easy step forward that you can take to help bridge the divide and help with the healing.  I think the fact that you think it is 'caving in' to agree to remove the statues suggests something else may be affecting your view on the matter.

It's nice to be certain about another , isn't it? 🙂  

 

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

I disagree with it being as simple as the statues only having the power you give to them - clearly the statues send a message to the community and in this case the message is "we don't care if you don't like a monument of somebody who fought for slavery - our reasons for wanting the display (purely historical purposes!) is more important than the hurt it gives you".

Disagreement is allowed. Perhaps they do have power over you and some others? However, it seems to me one gives them that power and ability to hurt  by what seems to me to be flawed thinking concerning inanimate objects meant to be remembered and a part of our history. Oh well, each to his/her own.

[thormas]

Interesting NYT article - not the part about the trumpster but the focus on the 'Lost Cause' spin.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/07/31/lost-cause-donald-trump/?arc404=true

[thormas]

2 hours ago, JosephM said:

Perhaps they do have power over you and some others? However, it seems to me one gives them that power and ability to hurt  by what seems to me to be flawed thinking concerning inanimate objects meant to be remembered and a part of our history. Oh well, each to his/her own.

Good lord, the statues and monuments are not merely 'inanimate objects' - they signify and symbolized something beyond themselves. It is what they symbolize (and the people who perpetuate that symbolism) that cause actual harm. 

Such real human suffering/harm on the part of black men and women should not be dismissed by "each to his/her own."

[Burl]

2 hours ago, thormas said:

Good lord, the statues and monuments are not merely 'inanimate objects' - they signify and symbolized something beyond themselves. It is what they symbolize (and the people who perpetuate that symbolism) that cause actual harm. 

Such real human suffering/harm on the part of black men and women should not be dismissed by "each to his/her own."

The monument destruction riots have been over for a month.  Now the BLM focus is on the violent attacking of police, occupying public property and defunding law enforcement.  
 

 

[thormas]

1 hour ago, Burl said:

The monument destruction riots have been over for a month.  Now the BLM focus is on the violent attacking of police, occupying public property and defunding law enforcement.  

OR.............the protest against the targeting of especially black men, police brutality, some possible refunding and the freedom to demonstrate continue.

The majority are peaceful and many believe the violence is wrong and counter productive.

 

PLUS...........the point remains that the monuments are symbols and cause harm to particular communities.

 

[Burl]

2 hours ago, thormas said:

OR.............the protest against the targeting of especially black men, police brutality, some possible refunding and the freedom to demonstrate continue.

The majority are peaceful and many believe the violence is wrong and counter productive.

 

PLUS...........the point remains that the monuments are symbols and cause harm to particular communities.

 

Listen to someone who knows.  Peaceful?  Police brutality?  Minority activism?

 

[thormas]

42 minutes ago, Burl said:

Listen to someone who knows.  Peaceful?  Police brutality?  Minority activism?

Please my friend, there are also those on the other side who knelt, hugged and prayed with the protestors. 

Again, no one here is for violence, the discussion is the peaceful people.

And you must know that there have been white nationalist types destroying property - I actually watched a video of one breaking glass in a storefront .......and then they showed who he was. OOPS and he's not on the protestors side.

[Burl]

1 hour ago, thormas said:

Please my friend, there are also those on the other side who knelt, hugged and prayed with the protestors. 

Again, no one here is for violence, the discussion is the peaceful people.

And you must know that there have been white nationalist types destroying property - I actually watched a video of one breaking glass in a storefront .......and then they showed who he was. OOPS and he's not on the protestors 

Suppose you have a chocolate milkshake.  How much dog poop can you stir into it before it becomes undrinkable?

Policemen blinded by lasers.  Clay mortars fired at police.  Fragment bombs.  Rocks.  All organized and directed.

The peaceful people have all left by this point.  It may have been a milkshake earlier but not anymore.

[thormas]

3 minutes ago, Burl said:

Suppose you have a chocolate milkshake.  How much dog poop can you stir into it before it becomes undrinkable?

Policemen blinded by lasers.  Clay mortars fired at police.  Fragment bombs.  Rocks.  All organized and directed.

The peaceful people have all left by this point.  It may have been a milkshake earlier but not anymore.

I don't like chocolate 😦

Burl, you're barking up the wrong tree. No one here and the majority of the protestors are not violent - just like all police are not racist thugs or don't care about all the people in their community. So too on the other side. To say otherwise, to generalize is to pre-judge, i.e. is to be prejudice.

The peaceful people have not all left, where are you getting that and who can possible track all the peaceful people in all the demonstrations?

 

[Burl]

15 minutes ago, thormas said:

I don't like chocolate 😦

Burl, you're barking up the wrong tree. No one here and the majority of the protestors are not violent - just like all police are not racist thugs or don't care about all the people in their community. So too on the other side. To say otherwise, to generalize is to pre-judge, i.e. is to be prejudice.

The peaceful people have not all left, where are you getting that and who can possible track all the peaceful people in all the demonstrations?

 

The rioters come out at night and the “protestors” go away.  It’s in the interview. 

[Burl]

Thormas, do you live in Portland like the guy in the interview or are your crowd estimates based on someone’s report?  Or are you guessing?

[Elen1107]

The first part of this video is how the state of New York is addressing the policing problems.

The rest of it is about the virus.

It was released on June 17th

I'm thinking it's really worth watching if people care about these issues and if they care about America

Thanks for watching

 

[thormas]

2 hours ago, Burl said:

The rioters come out at night and the “protestors” go away.  It’s in the interview. 

This is one guy with his perspective...............I respect it but he is one guy.

[thormas]

2 hours ago, Burl said:

Thormas, do you live in Portland like the guy in the interview or are your crowd estimates based on someone’s report?  Or are you guessing?

Good god No! I live in the great state of North Carolina, pride of the Confederacy!

[Burl]

5 hours ago, thormas said:

This is one guy with his perspective...............I respect it but he is one guy.

Not just a perspective, but solid evidence.  He caught the mortar shell with his chest; he deflected the rock and has the police reports with the eyewitnesses and video footage (per interview).

[thormas]

2 hours ago, Burl said:

Not just a perspective, but solid evidence.  He caught the mortar shell with his chest; he deflected the rock and has the police reports with the eyewitnesses and video footage (per interview).

Burl, I don't doubt the guy citing the evidence known to him. And again, no one is supporting the violence here

As for evidence: the police reported that hundreds peacefully protested yesterday (8/2/20) and miles away about 200 were violent. I and many others support the peaceful protestors and are totally against the violence. If one cop encountered the violent rioters his experience and evidence would be different than the cop encountering the peaceful protestors.

People have a right to peacefully protest and cops have a right and obligation to confront and arrest violent rioters!

[Burl]

1 hour ago, thormas said:

Burl, I don't doubt the guy citing the evidence known to him. And again, no one is supporting the violence here

As for evidence: the police reported that hundreds peacefully protested yesterday (8/2/20) and miles away about 200 were violent. I and many others support the peaceful protestors and are totally against the violence. If one cop encountered the violent rioters his experience and evidence would be different than the cop encountering the peaceful protestors.

People have a right to peacefully protest and cops have a right and obligation to confront and arrest violent rioters!

Agreed.  I’m not pushing any agenda, but evaluating the quality of the evidence.

Everything is saturated with propaganda now, and we are being encouraged to go along with manufactured narratives and not use critical thinking skills.  

It’s important to discern primary sources from secondary ones and actions from words.

 

   

[thormas]

44 minutes ago, Burl said:

Agreed.  I’m not pushing any agenda, but evaluating the quality of the evidence.

Everything is saturated with propaganda now, and we are being encouraged to go along with manufactured narratives and not use critical thinking skills.  

It’s important to discern primary sources from secondary ones and actions from words.

Also agreed.

[JosephM]

When some protesters get violent, if you are a peaceful protester and have any common sense, you leave that area or else you become part of the problem and make it difficult for the police to protect the innocent from getting caught up in a dangerous situation.. At that point technically there are no more peaceful protesters because they have made themselves complicit by remaining with the troublemakers.

[JosephM]

Cancel culture — the phenomenon of promoting the “canceling” of people, brands and even shows and movies due to what some consider to be offensive or problematic remarks or ideologies.

Cancel Culture to me is an attempt to stifle and cancel free expression by the claim of  harm because of what someone or some symbol says to a person that they find offensive.  As Obama says its not activism ...  its being judgmental so you can feel better about yourself. It's in my opinion toxic because it is so subjective it is often taken too far .

Edited August 3, 2020 by JosephM