Cancel Culture?

[PaulS]

Onya Dolly!

https://www.perthnow.com.au/entertainment/celebrity/dolly-parton-renames-a-dollywood-ride-amid-black-lives-matter-movement-ng-b881639269z

""As soon as you realise that [something] is a problem, you should fix it. Don't be a dumba**. That's where my heart is. I would never dream of hurting anybody on purpose."

[JosephM]

On 8/4/2020 at 7:57 PM, PaulS said:

Well, I was only joking, but in my view he is neither a Nazi or a demon.  Just a rich bloke with his views and probably thought of by some to be part of a greater conspiracy against mankind.  Each to their own.

Well i am not joking .... life has taught me that only the naive brush off conspiracy as a viable possibility. Every organization i have been a part of has  conspired at one time or another, some even which i have been complicit with. Men are not angels and they are always subject to the lusts of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Soros "open Society" may not be classified as secret though some is planned in secret, and some may dismiss it's lack of secrecy as not a conspiracy but the fact remains... his large wealth and views are being used to pervert the course of history which those with different views but a lack of such resources are unable to do.

[thormas]

4 hours ago, JosephM said:

Well i am not joking .... life has taught me that only the naive brush off conspiracy as a viable possibility. Every organization i have been a part of has  conspired at one time or another, some even which i have been complicit with. Men are not angels and they are always subject to the lusts of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Soros "open Society" may not be classified as secret though some is planned in secret, and some may dismiss it's lack of secrecy as not a conspiracy but the fact remains... his large wealth and views are being used to pervert the course of history which those with different views but a lack of such resources are unable to do.

so............another conspiracy theory.

_______________

It could be said of the trumpeter that his powerful position "..........and views are being used to pervert the course of history which those with different views but a lack of such resources are unable to do." Sadly all too true! Time to say "NO!"

[Burl]

Soros funds wars; Trump stops them.

Tells you something.

[thormas]

18 minutes ago, Burl said:

Soros funds wars; Trump stops them.

Tells you something.

More conspiracy theories and....

the trumpeter caves to Putin, alienates the Allies, blows it with North Korea and tries to muscle the Ukraine - really tells you something. Hey, accomplishments?

 

[Burl]

6 minutes ago, thormas said:

More conspiracy theories and....

the trumpeter caves to Putin, alienates the Allies, blows it with North Korea and tries to muscle the Ukraine - really tells you something. Hey, accomplishments?

 

 

Caves to Putin on what?  The Obamagate Russia scam?  Justice has the evidence.  We just need Obama’s treason hearing.

Biden proudly admitted on camera to muscling the Ukraine to fire the guy prosecuting his son for corruption.  

North Korea is doing just fine now that Trump removed his CIA handlers.  

[thormas]

51 minutes ago, Burl said:

Caves to Putin on what?  The Obamagate Russia scam?  Justice has the evidence.  We just need Obama’s treason hearing.

Biden proudly admitted on camera to muscling the Ukraine to fire the guy prosecuting his son for corruption.  

North Korea is doing just fine now that Trump removed his CIA handlers.  

OMG Burl - he pleads publicly with Russia to interfere in the 2016 election and our intelligence agencies say they interfered and the trumpeter comes out with the Putinator and says he disagrees strongly and he drops it. Really? And he totally ignores (and lies) about hearing/knowing about the bounty on our soldiers. Our soldiers. Really?

There is more to that Biden story. Move past the conspiracy theory and do the research.

Sure NK is doing just fine and we are no safer thanks to the trumpeter just trying to get credit without doing the long term work.

Hey, how do you like the trumpeter's comments on Harris' eligibility to be on the ticket? It's not just a conspiracy theory, this is the president of the US, who is surrounded, not by the brightest lights in the country, but by people who can look at the constitution and separated fact from fiction. This is a lie, a known, easily avoidable lie by a guys sworn to uphold that constitution. 

Yet you support such a man?

[Elen1107]

On 7/30/2020 at 7:31 PM, PaulS said:

 

I don't see any cancel culture oriented people wanting to change history or change the past, they just want it acknowledged that hero worship of racist figures should not continue unchallenged.  Such statues should be removed and replaced with a marker that accurately tells the story.  That would actually provide better context of the time period without it appearing as a form of status.  Proper historical markers properly explain history and don't just display a statue honoring one side of the story.

Here's a 'historical marker' of Robert Lee in Virginia.  Can you seriously say this is just a simple historical marker that explains history and not an idol of hero worship to somebody who the majority of whites in that area praised for his anti-black ideals?

 

 

 

I keep thinking about this picture and this issue. I'm descended from some Civil War Veterans from the North. I keep thinking that I would be offended and insulted by this statue. It's like, what did all these people fight and die for, just to have some weird thing like this erected and stand there for everyone to have to look at.

I've met and heard about people who are still fighting our wars from the past. The Civil war, the Mexican American war, even the American Revolution. When it comes to the Civil War, and you ask people from the south, "Do you really think the US should be two separate countries?” they're like, "No, no, we don't want that!" You ask them, "Do you really want slavery back?" and they're like, "Oh no we don't want that!". So I'm like what do you want? and they're like "We want to win!" . . . I'm like, well, this was a war, it was actually about something, it's not a game where it's just about winning cause there's nothing else to do. Some wars actually had meanings and were fought for real reasons.

Thing is, if the US had become two separate countries, what would have happened during WWII? Could the Nazis have taken over the entire world  ?  and then where would we be?

That being said, I've met people who are descended from southern, white, plantation holders that are the nicest, fair minded people that you'd ever want to meet. I've also met a good number of closet Yankees from the south, who just say they don't feel comfortable being that open about it down south.

Myself, I don't hold people responsible for their heritage. I don't even hold people responsible for their parents. Blaming people for what other people have done, even in their own families to me involves a twist of thinking that just isn't healthy and it can even get quite weird and dysfunctional.

-------------------------------------------

I don't know if this makes sense or not, but if people in the south, or anywhere, are genuinely feeling overwhelmed and "threatened" by other groups of people, there are much more sensible ways of dealing with it than calling out the kkk or building statues to past defenders of slavery. For one thing they can sit down and talk about it and discuss what the future might look like so everyone can have a decent and secure future. 

I really believe that this world is big enough so that people can be both culturally-centric and integrate, depending on their own choices and preferences, and people can actually chose to do both like six of one and a half dozen of the other. I think that both are great and wonderful and important in this world and in the future.

An example of when one group of people was feeling overwhelmed by another occurs in Genesis 26: 16-31. I'm not saying that things need to be done like this or anything like this. I'm just trying to say that there are more sensible ways of dealing with things than what we see going on now, or in the past when that statue was erected.

This is a shortened version of Genesis 26: 16-31

16 Then Abimelech said to Isaac, “Go away from here, because you are far too overwhelming/powerful for us.” 17 So Isaac left that region and camped in the Valley of Gerar, and settled there. .... .... 22 He moved away from there and dug another well, and they did not quarrel over that one; so he named it Rehoboth (broad places), saying, “For now the Lord has made [d]room for us, and we shall be [e]prosperous in the land.”

 Covenant with Abimelech 

26 Then Abimelech came to him from Gerar with Ahuzzath, his [close friend and confidential] adviser, and Phicol, the commander of his army. 27 Isaac said to them, “Why have you [people] come to me, since you ... have sent me away from you?” 28 They said, “We see clearly that the Lord has been with you; so we said, ‘There should now be an oath between us, that is, between you and us, and let us make a covenant (binding agreement, solemn promise) with you, 29 that you will not harm us, just as we have not touched you and have done nothing but good to you and have sent you away in peace. You are now the blessed and favored of the Lord!’” 30 Then Isaac held a [formal] banquet (covenant feast) for them, and they ate and drank. 31 They got up early in the morning and swore oaths [pledging to do nothing but good to each other]; and Isaac sent them on their way and they left him in peace.

------------------------------

The same thing seems to be happening with regards to immigration, both here in the US and in other places around the world. A lot of people genuinely want to help other people around the world who are having a hard time or are not able to deal with things. At the same time there are people who are concerned about being overwhelmed by other groups of people and other cultures.

Perhaps if there were programs, where people could come to this country, or other countries, for a while, and gain some skills, save some currency, and get some ideas, and then return to their homelands with ideas and skills and ways of improving things, so people don’t have to keep leaving their homelands just to eat or be safe. People could do this in groups, even with well thought out plans and ideas for the future.

This way everyone could have a future everywhere, instead of just here and there and all on top of each other.

-------------------------------

Just saying. Feel free to disagree with me. It’s just stuff I’ve been thinking about for a while and maybe some of it would work out.

Thanks for reading

[JosephM]

11 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I keep thinking about this picture and this issue. I'm descended from some Civil War Veterans from the North. I keep thinking that I would be offended and insulted by this statue. It's like, what did all these people fight and die for, just to have some weird thing like this erected and stand there for everyone to have to look at.

Why is their a need to look at it if it offends one? To me , it is history and i might enjoy the artistry and study the history. If i am offended at a topless beach, why would i go there? Should it be banned or closed? I think not. People are different and in my view need to learn to suffer others with differing beliefs.

 

11 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Thing is, if the US had become two separate countries, what would have happened during WWII? Could the Nazis have taken over the entire world  ?  and then where would we be?

That is a hypothetical with no existence in reality. We are one country. But just to play along say we were 2 countries, who can say for sure? So why wonder? Countries join together when their is a mutual interest.

 

11 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

That being said, I've met people who are descended from southern, white, plantation holders that are the nicest, fair minded people that you'd ever want to meet. I've also met a good number of closet Yankees from the south, who just say they don't feel comfortable being that open about it down south.

I was born in a Yankee state (PA) lived in a southern state and felt no such uncomfortableness. That is not to say that there aren't those who may feel that way but that is their problem to work out. There are choices they can make to move or change their thinking. There are things that can make one uncomfortasble no matter where they live because of the great diversity of people here. 

 

11 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I don't know if this makes sense or not, but if people in the south, or anywhere, are genuinely feeling overwhelmed and "threatened" by other groups of people, there are much more sensible ways of dealing with it than calling out the kkk or building statues to past defenders of slavery. For one thing they can sit down and talk about it and discuss what the future might look like so everyone can have a decent and secure future. 

I think we can agree on sitting down and talking about it. I don't think these statues are recent builds. Most have been there for some time. The one in the picture was built in 1924 almost 100 years ago.

 

11 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Perhaps if there were programs, where people could come to this country, or other countries, for a while, and gain some skills, save some currency, and get some ideas, and then return to their homelands with ideas and skills and ways of improving things, so people don’t have to keep leaving their homelands just to eat or be safe. People could do this in groups, even with well thought out plans and ideas for the future.

There are those programs existing already. Alot of it is subsidized by the US government programs. It is illegal immigration that is the problem . If one wants to help others in other countries you can always adopt a family or individual and support them through charity contributions through organizations, global food banks ,  etc. etc. I have been doing such for about 30 years now. It's not the job or original design of our government, it the job of individuals that have a mind to do so without offence to those who might think differently. In my view to take from all and give to others is an individual decision not to be forced upon people for a cheerful giver has the reward of love. It is not so with one who has to give of necessity.

Tax money is not governments to give .... Why?        Read this story of Davy Crockett in the House of Representatives.                 https://fee.org/resources/not-your-to-give/

Just some of my thoughts, Joseph

[thormas]

4 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Why is their a need to look at it if it offends one? To me , it is history and i might enjoy the artistry and study the history. If i am offended at a topless beach, why would i go there? Should it be banned or closed? I think not. People are different and in my view need to learn to suffer others with differing beliefs.

 

Actually, topless beaches are banned in many places and topless beaches are designated (or restricted) to certain locations.

So too such statues.............that why god made museums 😀 put them in a museum and any can still 'study' them for history or artistic purposes. 

It still remains that they are the statues of a treasonous war against the US, in the name of salvery, that was defeated ........and is experienced as a painful reminder and acceptance (by some) of that cause. Time for them to go to a museum.

We should have no problem 'suffering for others' whose need is great - as is the continued suffering of too many black citizens.

 

[Elen1107]

On 8/16/2020 at 10:16 AM, JosephM said:

Why is their a need to look at it if it offends one? To me , it is history and i might enjoy the artistry and study the history. If i am offended at a topless beach, why would i go there? Should it be banned or closed? I think not. People are different and in my view need to learn to suffer others with differing beliefs.

 

What would you do if there was nothing but a topless beach near you? You'd have to deal with it or not go.

One could actually look at that statue as a form of hate speech, and possibly even a form of inciting a riot.

I do appreciate it's artistry, but when good art is used to promote that kind of negative thing, it does bother me.

On 8/16/2020 at 10:16 AM, JosephM said:

That is a hypothetical with no existence in reality. We are one country. But just to play along say we were 2 countries, who can say for sure? So why wonder? Countries join together when their is a mutual interest.

 

What it took to deploy that many people in that short a time span as just one country was something phenomenon. I shudder to think what would have happened had we been two separate countries.

On 8/16/2020 at 10:16 AM, JosephM said:

I was born in a Yankee state (PA) lived in a southern state and felt no such uncomfortableness. That is not to say that there aren't those who may feel that way but that is their problem to work out. There are choices they can make to move or change their thinking. There are things that can make one uncomfortasble no matter where they live because of the great diversity of people here. 

 

I guess that you are lucky that you are able to move if ever you want to or feel the need. That is not so for everyone.

People have to look at that statue everyday or every week. They have no choice.

They also shouldn't have to leave their friends and families just to not be insulted everyday.

On 8/16/2020 at 10:16 AM, JosephM said:

I think we can agree on sitting down and talking about it. I don't think these statues are recent builds. Most have been there for some time. The one in the picture was built in 1924 almost 100 years ago.

 

I agree with talking things out, and getting down to what the problems really are, even if they are hard to look at.

On 8/16/2020 at 10:16 AM, JosephM said:

There are those programs existing already. Alot of it is subsidized by the US government programs. It is illegal immigration that is the problem . If one wants to help others in other countries you can always adopt a family or individual and support them through charity contributions through organizations, global food banks ,  etc. etc. I have been doing such for about 30 years now. It's not the job or original design of our government, it the job of individuals that have a mind to do so without offence to those who might think differently. In my view to take from all and give to others is an individual decision not to be forced upon people for a cheerful giver has the reward of love. It is not so with one who has to give of necessity.

Tax money is not governments to give .... Why?        Read this story of Davy Crockett in the House of Representatives.                 https://fee.org/resources/not-your-to-give/

I've always felt pretty good about this country's disaster relief programs.

Perhaps people, and the government, should look at what they have and haven't done to enable people to recover from natural disasters on their own, or to enable or prevent elderly widows to be able to maintain and provide for themselves in their later years.

I see this happening today. I've know a good number of older women who lose out in hard and tragic ways once their husband dies. They end up below the poverty level and working minimum-wage jobs with no insurance, all the while being over 50, sometimes over 70 or 80. I've seen this time and time again. However if the wife were to pass on first, the husband is just fine and doesn't have to change a thing, doesn't have to sell his home, or get a crummy job. He can be and stay retired and not worry about food or medication or how he is ever going to live out his last days.

I like the Davy Crockett song, but I disagree with him here and with Mr. Bunce too. I think they are wrong.

[PaulS]

On 8/16/2020 at 10:16 PM, JosephM said:

Why is their a need to look at it if it offends one? To me , it is history and i might enjoy the artistry and study the history. If i am offended at a topless beach, why would i go there? Should it be banned or closed? 

So just avoid the town square or other high-profile parts of the city such monuments are graced with?  I would suggest it's not the 'looking' at such a tribute that offends one but rather it is the thought process that went behind its installation and continued presence, that has many people saying its time has come.

Quote

We are one country. 

Quite divided thought it would seem based on the political opinions shared.

Quote

I was born in a Yankee state (PA) lived in a southern state and felt no such uncomfortableness. That is not to say that there aren't those who may feel that way but that is their problem to work out. There are choices they can make to move or change their thinking. There are things that can make one uncomfortasble no matter where they live because of the great diversity of people here. 

The great diversity or the overwhelming majority?  Whites are the overwhelming majority so it isn't unreasonable to expect that their views may carry more weight in general than the minority.  Poor people can't just up and move if they don't like it.  Other people for various reasons (employment, family etc) can't just up and move even though they see oppression and racism around them.  I just don't think it is as simple as you make it out to be.

Quote

I think we can agree on sitting down and talking about it. I don't think these statues are recent builds. Most have been there for some time. The one in the picture was built in 1924 almost 100 years ago.

New Orleans certainly did - and removed such tributes and monuments.

[JosephM]

7 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

What would you do if there was nothing but a topless beach near you? You'd have to deal with it or not go.

One could actually look at that statue as a form of hate speech, and possibly even a form of inciting a riot.

I do appreciate it's artistry, but when good art is used to promote that kind of negative thing, it does bother me.

Beaches cater to the majority of people. Topless ones  are usually segregated off so you can go to the regular beach instead. In the US, if there is a topless beach there will also be a non-topless beach. Choose your poison.

One could look at anything and have their own  opinion concerning it.  Change your thinking and the hate goes away.

Agreed it may bother you but tastes differ, you are responsible for your own negativity in my view.

7 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I agree with talking things out, and getting down to what the problems really are, even if they are hard to look at.

Yes, we have common ground here. I am all for that. Too bad some have to resort to more violent means than that.

 

7 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I've always felt pretty good about this country's disaster relief programs.

Perhaps people, and the government, should look at what they have and haven't done to enable people to recover from natural disasters on their own, or to enable or prevent elderly widows to be able to maintain and provide for themselves in their later years.

I see this happening today. I've know a good number of older women who lose out in hard and tragic ways once their husband dies. They end up below the poverty level and working minimum-wage jobs with no insurance, all the while being over 50, sometimes over 70 or 80. I've seen this time and time again. However if the wife were to pass on first, the husband is just fine and doesn't have to change a thing, doesn't have to sell his home, or get a crummy job. He can be and stay retired and not worry about food or medication or how he is ever going to live out his last days.

I like the Davy Crockett song, but I disagree with him here and with Mr. Bunce too. I think they are wrong.

I think it is up to the charity of individuals rather than government to do some of what you mention. I take it as a personal responsibility to do both for myself, family and for others. I can't control what other people do but i have done my best to provide for my family and others i have never met by sacrificing when i was younger so that i could have later in life to help and to leave my family with more than adequate resources to not suffer from my passing. I would encourage young people not to live as if there is no tomorrow and do the same. But if not,  that is their business and consequences come and hopefully they learn before it is too late. I am not for government bailouts as that in my view breeds corruption among those who have been given power over our tax money and funds that were supposed to be limited by our constitution. I do not prefer socialism on a grand scale. Some social programs like Social Security seem to be needed because personal discipline in saving for the future in often lacking in many. SS is poverty wages for those who did not prepare for retirement but at least they won't starve for food and shelter if they are willing to move to more affordable accommodations..

[JosephM]

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

So just avoid the town square or other high-profile parts of the city such monuments are graced with?  I would suggest it's not the 'looking' at such a tribute that offends one but rather it is the thought process that went behind its installation and continued presence, that has many people saying its time has come.

There is an easier way. Paul, just get over it. Change your thoughts and the offense goes away.🙂

 

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

Quite divided thought it would seem based on the political opinions shared.

No more than Australia. We just have 10 times the population and a whole lot more of crowed  diversity. Heck ,  the newspapers make it sound alot worse than it is. They prey on the negative. Your welcome to come visit and see for yourself. I'll even provide a place for you to stay at no charge though you could help me mow the lawn if your up to it. I'll even throw in some golf.

 

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

The great diversity or the overwhelming majority?  Whites are the overwhelming majority so it isn't unreasonable to expect that their views may carry more weight in general than the minority.  Poor people can't just up and move if they don't like it.  Other people for various reasons (employment, family etc) can't just up and move even though they see oppression and racism around them.  I just don't think it is as simple as you make it out to be.

Let's not get racist Paul. 🙂 We are all Americans here except for the illegals. I don't see color.

With all our welfare and government programs and great opportunities for those willing to take it, the poor are a very small section of society and the problem isn't for lack of opportunity or government programs. Sure , some fall through the crack but we are a generous nation of people and anyone lacking the basics can get it free if they are willing. We have church outreaches, food kitchens, treat all emergencies free in our hospitals and some free clinics if you have no money. One does have to be able to find the social services one needs but they are here. I am not saying i have the answer for all the reasons for there being poor people but there are answers and solutions and government isn't a very effective one in my opinion. People here are basically good and generous and do help less fortunate ones but that doesn't usually make the evening news. 

[PaulS]

2 hours ago, JosephM said:

There is an easier way. Paul, just get over it. Change your thoughts and the offense goes away.🙂

If we applied that mindset pre-civil war, then I guess blacks would still be slaves.  What about changing your thinking and saying to yourself "If it makes my brother feel more engaged and less downtrodden, then I will be happy to make the change".  It should be pretty easy just to change how you think.

Quote

No more than Australia. We just have 10 times the population and a whole lot more of crowed  diversity. Heck ,  the newspapers make it sound alot worse than it is. They prey on the negative. Your welcome to come visit and see for yourself. I'll even provide a place for you to stay at no charge though you could help me mow the lawn if your up to it. I'll even throw in some golf.

We (Australia) haven't been having riots, demolishing of monuments, police teargassing our people, or military moving in to maintain peace.  So, maybe a bit more divided than Australia presently.  But thanks for the invite.  Revisiting the US is on my to do list, but there are also lots of places I would like to visit in between as well.  Maybe in a few years when international travel is once again permitted.

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Let's not get racist Paul. 🙂 We are all Americans here except for the illegals. I don't see color.

Noting a dissimilarity in your population is not racism.  It is an acknowledgement that black people, who were once kept as slaves by white Americans and who have long battled for civil rights before finally getting some traction as late as the 1960's, are clearly at a disadvantage to a white majority.  I think it would be fairly head-in-the-sand to say there is no racism against blacks in the US.

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With all our welfare and government programs and great opportunities for those willing to take it, the poor are a very small section of society and the problem isn't for lack of opportunity or government programs. Sure , some fall through the crack but we are a generous nation of people and anyone lacking the basics can get it free if they are willing. We have church outreaches, food kitchens, treat all emergencies free in our hospitals and some free clinics if you have no money. One does have to be able to find the social services one needs but they are here. I am not saying i have the answer for all the reasons for there being poor people but there are answers and solutions and government isn't a very effective one in my opinion. People here are basically good and generous and do help less fortunate ones but that doesn't usually make the evening news. 

The poor are a very small section of society?  Currently, 18% of all children in the United States — nearly 13 million kids total — are living in poverty.  I don't consider that a 'small section' of society (and just because it isn't much different to Australia doesn't make it right).  And whilst I don't doubt that generally the US people are generous, simply getting the basics in life doesn't help people move states to live somewhere that is more agreeable to them (less racist or one that chooses not to glorify racist figures), which is what we were talking about.

Poverty Myth: The US Doesn’t Have Much Poverty
For a country that sees itself as the “richest nation in the world” this is one of the most intransigent poverty myths. The truth is the US regularly ranks near the bottom on rankings of developed countries for both adult and child poverty. When it comes to inequality the situation is even worse.

https://4thworldmovement.org/overcoming-poverty/poverty-myths/?gclid=CjwKCAjw1ej5BRBhEiwAfHyh1JoNwwBLaY-FQNnR8kiaOgqaceNsoZODz1G0mhGFTAJI9pGioNvfbxoC2aYQAvD_BwE

 

[JosephM]

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

If we applied that mindset pre-civil war, then I guess blacks would still be slaves.  What about changing your thinking and saying to yourself "If it makes my brother feel more engaged and less downtrodden, then I will be happy to make the change".  It should be pretty easy just to change how you think.

It seems to me you take it to an extreme in your example here. Being offended at something is not the same as being in slavery. A slave had little control over his situation as a slave but one always has an opportunity to change  on how they think about things.

 

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

We (Australia) haven't been having riots, demolishing of monuments, police teargassing our people, or military moving in to maintain peace.  So, maybe a bit more divided than Australia presently.  But thanks for the invite.  Revisiting the US is on my to do list, but there are also lots of places I would like to visit in between as well.  Maybe in a few years when international travel is once again permitted.

Great social distancing (lol). BTW, They defied orders and there was violence and other problems just not as bad as in the US. 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/06/australian-black-lives-matter-protests-tens-of-thousands-demand-end-to-indigenous-deaths-in-custody

When darkness comes your people also get violent. Your news does a better job of hiding it but it can be found.

 As far as to the degree of violence and damage i agree there is little comparison but its there. Check this out...

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/what-really-happened-at-central-on-the-night-of-black-lives-matter-rally-20200611-p551ov.html

Of course you can always blame it on police handling but i don't think that was the problem.

And you do have riots in Austrailia just not on this particular subject matter of BLM. 

In 2019 you had riots ... https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/activists-and-police-clash-outside-mining-conference-in-melbourne/video/7816ed69096e10c9b9daa8fdd1156c23  and your people are also very capable of being violent. All countries have divisions, perhaps not always on the same subjects or to the same level of violence but never-the-less much division exists. I would not throw stones.

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

The poor are a very small section of society?  Currently, 18% of all children in the United States — nearly 13 million kids total — are living in poverty.  I don't consider that a 'small section' of society (and just because it isn't much different to Australia doesn't make it right).  And whilst I don't doubt that generally the US people are generous, simply getting the basics in life doesn't help people move states to live somewhere that is more agreeable to them (less racist or one that chooses not to glorify racist figures), which is what we were talking about.

Come on Paul... that term is relative. Our poor are rich in comparison to what is considered poor in other countries. Why do you think people flock here and sneak in? We have school programs to feed children who don't get fed at home from parent neglect or inability to provide. The parents  are eligible for welfare. Some use it for drugs and other non-necessities. You can't believe all the statistics you read. Poverty is relative. I was raised in poverty according to numbers back then and we didn't have much meat or nice housing but it was kept clean and we had food and 2nd hand clothes, no name brand sneakers, or phones,  or TV, etc. and my wife didn't even have inside toilets or running water or washing machines.  In fact, we didn't know we were poor. I don't call that poverty. Today the poverty line for a family of four with two children for that 18% figure is $24, 339 . That may be US poverty but its workable and better than we had it. Our government  even provides  free cell phones to families who can't afford it and free dental and health clinics which brings their equivalent pay to more with no income tax..   There is plenty of thrift stores for like new used clothing for near nothing.  13 million kids poor? No Paul . My first job was 25 cents an hour and i managed to save 10% and continued to do the same as wages grew. This is a land of opportunity that was not meant to be a socialist nation but we are slowly going that direction because some people don't understand that for many of us it takes sacrifice now to work harder and smarter and save to get ahead and out of their situation in the future.

[thormas]

8 hours ago, JosephM said:

Come on Paul... that term is relative. Our poor are rich in comparison to what is considered poor in other countries. Why do you think people flock here and sneak in? We have school programs to feed children who don't get fed at home from parent neglect or inability to provide. The parents  are eligible for welfare. Some use it for drugs and other non-necessities. You can't believe all the statistics you read. Poverty is relative. I was raised in poverty according to numbers back then and we didn't have much meat or nice housing but it was kept clean and we had food and 2nd hand clothes, no name brand sneakers, or phones,  or TV, etc. and my wife didn't even have inside toilets or running water or washing machines.  In fact, we didn't know we were poor. I don't call that poverty. Today the poverty line for a family of four with two children for that 18% figure is $24, 339 . That may be US poverty but its workable and better than we had it. Our government  even provides  free cell phones to families who can't afford it and free dental and health clinics which brings their equivalent pay to more with no income tax..   There is plenty of thrift stores for like new used clothing for near nothing.  13 million kids poor? No Paul . My first job was 25 cents an hour and i managed to save 10% and continued to do the same as wages grew. This is a land of opportunity that was not meant to be a socialist nation but we are slowly going that direction because some people don't understand that for many of us it takes sacrifice now to work harder and smarter and save to get ahead and out of their situation in the future.

Joseph, 

$24,239 for a family of 4 is doable with 2020 prices? Please! And compared to your situation as a kid, I guess but you must be talking COL in the late 40s and through the 50s. It was a different world. 

And it's not all in comparison to your situation.......plus you were not faced with ongoing systematic racism. 

And world comparisons are fine but let's just consider America (The USA) where perhaps we should be able to have less poor in such a country as ours (and not be a socialist state). We have all those programs you mentioned because .............so many people are poor! People who are not poor don't need this programs. Poverty may be relative but it is also real in the lives of too many in this country. 

And (elsewhere) you slam people on retirement planning? Without even considering that some might have circumstances that decimated their savings and their plans for the future in spite of their best laid plans. Where is the understanding and empathy for others?  Many of us do make sacrifices to get ahead and plan for the futures but not all are able to do that. How much would that father or mother of the family of 4 be able to save on $24k a year? If they needed to use any of the programs you mentioned, there is probably nothing left year after year. 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by thormas

[PaulS]

11 hours ago, JosephM said:

It seems to me you take it to an extreme in your example here. Being offended at something is not the same as being in slavery. A slave had little control over his situation as a slave but one always has an opportunity to change  on how they think about things.

I think rather than have to change one's thinking about tributes to people who fought to keep black people enslaved, I would prefer those who feel these tributes need to be displayed, change their thinking.  So it seems we are at a impasse where the only answers each 'side' can give is for the other 'side' to change their thinking.

11 hours ago, JosephM said:

Great social distancing (lol). BTW, They defied orders and there was violence and other problems just not as bad as in the US. 

That was my pint - not as bad as the US.  You certainly seem more divided and more aggrieved than the present situation in Australia.  Yes, very poor social distancing which partly led to a resurgence in Victoria.  The only thing that I think saved Australia from a spread rate like the US is the low number of cases and issues with density like you've previously mentioned.  Without a doubt, group situations are a recipe for disaster where there is covid infections.

11 hours ago, JosephM said:

Your news does a better job of hiding it but it can be found.

Our news does a better job of hiding it?  What on earth are you talking about Joseph!  You've just quoted two of our main media channels.  These protests were all across the news and out in the open.  

11 hours ago, JosephM said:

 As far as to the degree of violence and damage i agree there is little comparison but its there.

As you say, very little comparison.  I don't argue that it's not there, just that when compared to Australia you say your situation concerning division in the US is not all that bad, I beg to differ.

11 hours ago, JosephM said:

All countries have divisions, perhaps not always on the same subjects or to the same level of violence but never-the-less much division exists. I would not throw stones.

Nobody is throwing stones other than to compare the violence in two countries, and the government response, and to point out there is very little comparison.

11 hours ago, JosephM said:

Come on Paul... that term is relative. Our poor are rich in comparison to what is considered poor in other countries. Why do you think people flock here and sneak in? We have school programs to feed children who don't get fed at home from parent neglect or inability to provide. The parents  are eligible for welfare. Some use it for drugs and other non-necessities. You can't believe all the statistics you read. Poverty is relative. I was raised in poverty according to numbers back then and we didn't have much meat or nice housing but it was kept clean and we had food and 2nd hand clothes, no name brand sneakers, or phones,  or TV, etc. and my wife didn't even have inside toilets or running water or washing machines.  In fact, we didn't know we were poor. I don't call that poverty. Today the poverty line for a family of four with two children for that 18% figure is $24, 339 . That may be US poverty but its workable and better than we had it. Our government  even provides  free cell phones to families who can't afford it and free dental and health clinics which brings their equivalent pay to more with no income tax..   There is plenty of thrift stores for like new used clothing for near nothing.  13 million kids poor? No Paul . My first job was 25 cents an hour and i managed to save 10% and continued to do the same as wages grew. This is a land of opportunity that was not meant to be a socialist nation but we are slowly going that direction because some people don't understand that for many of us it takes sacrifice now to work harder and smarter and save to get ahead and out of their situation in the future.

I don't doubt that there are many even poorer people who live in countries much more over-populated and with much less financial opportunity, that want to come to the US.  We get it in Australia too.  I don't blame them for wanting to enter.  And yes, their countries are quite clearly even worse for them to remain in.

But the issue was you were saying 'the poor' are a very small section of your society.  I am saying that nearly 20% of your society living in poverty is more than a 'very small' cohort.

[JosephM]

19 minutes ago, PaulS said:

But the issue was you were saying 'the poor' are a very small section of your society.  I am saying that nearly 20% of your society living in poverty is more than a 'very small' cohort.

And I am saying in reality they (that 20 of our society are not poor by world standards.  I am saying that the level of poverty as classifying as poor is relative and doesn't give a clear picture of our society and how well we are off which includes those 20% that is reported as living in poverty.

[PaulS]

37 minutes ago, JosephM said:

And I am saying in reality they (that 20 of our society are not poor by world standards.  I am saying that the level of poverty as classifying as poor is relative and doesn't give a clear picture of our society and how well we are off which includes those 20% that is reported as living in poverty.

I said earlier that "poor people can't just up and move if they don't like it.  Other people for various reasons (employment, family etc) can't just up and move even though they see oppression and racism around them.  I just don't think it is as simple as you make it out to be".

With nearly 20% of your population living in poverty, to me it seems their choices about moving are very limited.  It would seem 1/5th of your population can't change states or counties even if they desperately wanted to.  They simply can't afford it whilst living in poverty.

[thormas]

8 hours ago, PaulS said:

I said earlier that "poor people can't just up and move if they don't like it.  Other people for various reasons (employment, family etc) can't just up and move even though they see oppression and racism around them.  I just don't think it is as simple as you make it out to be".

With nearly 20% of your population living in poverty, to me it seems their choices about moving are very limited.  It would seem 1/5th of your population can't change states or counties even if they desperately wanted to.  They simply can't afford it whilst living in poverty.

This is exactly the case Paul.

And the idea that the poor in the US are not really poor or that being poor in the US is a 'relative' thing, given the poverty through the world, is a typical republican canard.

[JosephM]

12 hours ago, PaulS said:

I said earlier that "poor people can't just up and move if they don't like it.  Other people for various reasons (employment, family etc) can't just up and move even though they see oppression and racism around them.  I just don't think it is as simple as you make it out to be".

With nearly 20% of your population living in poverty, to me it seems their choices about moving are very limited.  It would seem 1/5th of your population can't change states or counties even if they desperately wanted to.  They simply can't afford it whilst living in poverty.

Ok , we will have to disagree because of my experience as we moved when we were in the standard for poverty. It  required lowering our standard of living and some sacrifice but to me,  it is as simple as that. It is the negativity of the thinking mind that makes things difficult. Some of the happiest people i know are those that have the least.

[thormas]

1 hour ago, JosephM said:

Ok , we will have to disagree because of my experience as we moved when we were in the standard for poverty. It  required lowering our standard of living and some sacrifice but to me,  it is as simple as that. It is the negativity of the thinking mind that makes things difficult. Some of the happiest people i know are those that have the least.

As Paul said, not all have that opportunity and of course you were not impacted by systematic racism. Nor were you more prone to suffer health issues (including the present pandemic) as are minority citizens.....in spite of the health clinics the poor can go to after they stop at the thrift shop.

It is interesting that those who are not or no longer poor romanticize being poor (happiest people) although it is also interesting that those who are actually in poverty would prefer to be anyplace else (the kids might not know they are poor but the single mother or the mother and father are acutely aware of it). I doubt you or any others would go back to being poor.

[Elen1107]

On 8/17/2020 at 10:34 PM, JosephM said:

I think it is up to the charity of individuals rather than government to do some of what you mention. I take it as a personal responsibility to do both for myself, family and for others. I can't control what other people do but i have done my best to provide for my family and others i have never met by sacrificing when i was younger so that i could have later in life to help and to leave my family with more than adequate resources to not suffer from my passing. I would encourage young people not to live as if there is no tomorrow and do the same. But if not,  that is their business and consequences come and hopefully they learn before it is too late. I am not for government bailouts as that in my view breeds corruption among those who have been given power over our tax money and funds that were supposed to be limited by our constitution. I do not prefer socialism on a grand scale. Some social programs like Social Security seem to be needed because personal discipline in saving for the future in often lacking in many. SS is poverty wages for those who did not prepare for retirement but at least they won't starve for food and shelter if they are willing to move to more affordable accommodations..

You might be as much the exception as the rule in terms of looking out for your family if you pass first. So many people were told that everything would be ok, and then it turns out that it's not. Make sure you read the fine print, and know for real what is going to happen.

If these things are "socialist", then one would have to call most of Europe and Canada "socialist". I don't see them like that at all. They all took the good thing that we had during the 50's and made it better. I'm thinking that the US shouldn't be so arrogant and full of itself, as to not be able to keep growing and getting better and not be able to learn from other countries.

[JosephM]

On 8/21/2020 at 3:52 PM, Elen1107 said:

You might be as much the exception as the rule in terms of looking out for your family if you pass first. So many people were told that everything would be ok, and then it turns out that it's not. Make sure you read the fine print, and know for real what is going to happen.

If these things are "socialist", then one would have to call most of Europe and Canada "socialist". I don't see them like that at all. They all took the good thing that we had during the 50's and made it better. I'm thinking that the US shouldn't be so arrogant and full of itself, as to not be able to keep growing and getting better and not be able to learn from other countries.

Don't know what you mean by fine print?

If i thought Europe or Canada was a better place to live than the US ..... i would move there.  What i have learned from those countries is that my family and i prefer to live in this great country of opportunity in spite of some peoples perception that the grass is somehow greener in the other country.