Neon Genesis Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) Again, I agree with you, NG. I don't hold to this kind of supernatural theism either. And that is, perhaps, the point. There are different kinds of theism. We don't have to pick only supernatural theism or no belief/experience of God at all. I suspect that atheists (at least the outspoken kind) reject supernatural theism, which I do also. But for whatever reason, they know of no other way to believe in or experience God than supernatural theism, so they claim that God doesn't exist. For me, Christianity comes down to loving God and loving one another. In fact, I'm reading a Methodist book right now called, "Three Simple Rules", which says, in essence, "Do no harm, do good, stay in love with God." Isn't this what Jesus did? I think our world would be a better place if we did this. It seems to me that a non-supernatural theism would be just as incompatible with Jesus' worldview as an atheistic point of view would be incompatible. It's clear from the gospels that Jesus did believe in a supernatural theism. How exactly is a non-supernatural theism any different than atheism other than semantics? How do you love a god that's not literally there and is just a symbol? Where have I said anything about Jesus and his teachings on divorce? Where have I demanded that we must follow everything about his theology?You're missing my point. My point is if you don't believe the bible is the literal word of God and if you insist all Christians must believe in some kind of god, but it's ok to reject Jesus' teachings on divorce, by what standard are you using to decide what Christians must believe in and what's ok for Christians to reject? As I've said previously, it comes down to weight. Although I haven't talked about it before, was Jesus' central message about divorce law? Was that the focus of his ministry? Was that his gospel? A fundamentalist Christian would say that Jesus' teachings on divorce are just as important as his teachings on loving God and they would accuse you of "gutting" the gospel. I'm not a fundamentalist. The only thing that I am "fundamental" about is saying that I think Jesus' teaching on loving God and loving others is central to Christianity. And for that, I get rebuked here on this "Christian" forum. You're not being "rebuked" for saying that but for your implication that Christians who disagree with you on this point are somehow not honest. Why is it so important for Christianity to have "central" beliefs? Edited July 27, 2012 by Neon Genesis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 To Neon Genesis: I apologize if my post came across as meaning that I thought that you were personally dishonest. I in no way meant that. I think you are a sincere and compassionate person, regardless of your personal "theology" or lack thereof. If you are a Christian Atheist, all I am saying is that I don't understand that category. I don't understand how it works. So please forgive my ignorance. What I was referring to is the penchant that our culture has to label things "Christian" (music, performers, entertainers, careers, bumper stickers, books, political candidates) without ever considering what that might mean, especially in the light of Jesus' best teachings. Jesus said that there was a cost to following him, but in our day and age, there is also a great deal of money to made off the label. 76% to 80% of Americans say that they are Christians (Protestant and Catholic), and yet America as just as prone to war, violence, ignoring the plight of the poor, and ignoring social issues as if it were pagan. So, yes, I question what kind of "Christianity" this is where it cost us nothing and leaves us and our country/culture unchanged. But that is another subject in which I could get myself into trouble in short order. Anyway, I didn't mean anything derogatory toward you, just that I don't understand. As I said, my ignorance. Peace. Regards, Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I accept your apology and I agree with you completely that people brandy about the label Christian too much as a mere marketing label and yet behave in the most atractious ways to each other and others. That is why I have said before in this thread that being a Christian should be about your actions and how you treat others than what people believe or not believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) I guess just as God is hard to define so is being a Christian. If it were not so then I wonder how there has become so many denominations. For me I think whatever a person thinks about their Christianity it should be more than just a label. It has meaning to their lives too and one tries to live it. I recognise I personally do not always succeed but I try. I think that is true of most of us in my experience. Life is definitely not easy but we hope in what we believe. Edited July 27, 2012 by Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 from 49 ways to love God the first ten. It is the easiest way I've found to stretch the point. If the qualities of character listed on the right of each line are ways to love God. I don't think it matters if we name God. Yes the author has inspired interpretations to reach the words from the passages but I think there is truth here. We say it over and over again - it is our actions that.matter. Jesus tried to throw away laws and creeds. Jesus asked us to put these truths deep in our hearts and to live out of them. If we live out of our best selves are we not honoring how we evolved or became individuals. http://billgothard.c...ist/49commands/ Repent—Matthew 4:17—Humility Follow Me—Matthew 4:19—Meekness Rejoice—Matthew 5:12—Joyfulness Let Your Light Shine—Matthew 5:16—Generosity Honor God’s Law—Matthew 5:17–18—Love Be Reconciled—Matthew 5:24–25—Responsibility Do Not Commit Adultery—Matthew 5:29–30—Self-Control Keep Your Word—Matthew 5:37—Truthfulness Go the Second Mile—Matthew 5:38–42—Deference Love Your Enemies—Matthew 5:44—Creativity Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 . So, yes, I question what kind of "Christianity" this is where it cost us nothing and leaves us and our country/culture unchanged. But that is another subject in which I could get myself into trouble in short order. I think many sermons every Sunday are about this. Luke 11:20 NIV But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the Kingdom of God has come upon you. If we think that "demons" needs a modern understanding why would we not think the same about human understanding of "God"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I would like to summarize the whole question of this topic started by Norm for those who may doubt the possibility that an Atheist could be a Christian by making a statement and asking a question. First, i as many others here seem not to disagree in principle that the central theme of Jesus's teaching was indeed Love of God and Others from which springs such other things as he taught such as mercy, forgiveness, kindness, peace, joy, etc.... Second I think those who self-identify as Christian seeking an answer would be wise to ask them themselves as Pete has asked in one of his posts.... If Love is from God and an atheist believes in love but not the concept of God are they still not moved by the same spirit of love even if they do not recognise it in the same way another does? And i would ask..... Is God really a concept or more a living reality? Each of us are free to decide for his/her self. Thanks Norm for asking the question. The discussion imo has been enlightening to say the least. Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Again: Meister Eckhart You may call God love, you may call God goodness. But the best name for God is compassion Here is someone I think "nails it" in the the thirteenth century. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 (edited) Neon It seems to me that a non-supernatural theism would be just as incompatible with Jesus' worldview as an atheistic point of view would be incompatible. It would depend on how we interpret John 10:30. If this is as true for me as it is christ then a lot can be interpreted atheistically. As there are many authors and editors, so how can we be sure of Jesus's central message? From a purely pragmatic point of view it may be worthwhile looking at Jesus the historical charcter and Christ the myth. But both ultimately are one and both have their place. Edited July 28, 2012 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 It seems to me that the difference between Christian atheism and a non-supernatural theism is more or less a semantics argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Thanks Norm for asking the question. The discussion imo has been enlightening to say the least. Yes, thanks Norm. This thread has been an interesting read. Christian Atheist is defined in Wikipedia and from there I take this paragraph: "Jesus, although not seen as divine, is still a central feature of Christian atheism. Most Christian atheists think of Jesus as a wise and good man, accepting his moral teachings but rejecting the idea of his divinity. Hamilton said that to the Christian atheist, Jesus is not really the foundation of faith; instead he is a "place to be, a standpoint".[4] Christian atheists look to Jesus as an example of what a Christian should be, but they do not see him as a god. Hamilton wrote that following Jesus means being "alongside the neighbor, being for him",[4] and that to follow Jesus means to be human, to help other humans, and to further mankind". I see my association with christianity as being a follower of Jesus, not in the sense that I believe everything that Jesus believed or stand by everything that Jesus said, but rather that there is much to be gained from his wisdom, particularly when it comes to his message of compassion, love, and being a 'full' person. That's enough for me. Yes Jesus seemed to believe in God as a person (Abba Father), which would be an absolutely normal expectation considering the culture he grew up in. Could he be wrong - Yes. Does it matter - No. Keeping Jesus in mind often, is enough for me to consider myself a Christian, but obviously there are numerous other takes on what defines a Christian as Christian. Frankly, for me, I don't really worry about that. Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 I apologize for being an absentee thread-lord. I've had some unexplained issues with my Internet service, and I never post on forums during work. It turns out our service line from the street was chewed on by squirrels! How ironic is that!? The World Wide Web brought to a screeching halt by a few hungry squirrels (apparently they LOVE coaxial cable). Anyhow, this thread is a real encouragement for me. The consensus seems to be that yes; an Atheist (I prefer the term Non-theist) can follow in the footsteps of Jesus. I've shared excerpts of this thread with some of the members of my Minyan, and they were surprised at the positive responses. I am very proud to say that I am a member of the Progressive Christianity Forum! Thanks everyone for participating. NORM 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 I don't at all deny that we can take the Jeffersonian approach and cut up the gospels, removing every reference to God from the teachings of Jesus. But how much would be left? Actually, quite a bit: http://www.angelfire...JeffersonBible/ I used to meditate on it quite frequently some years ago. Of course, now I have the Talmud. NORM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Just because I don't believe in the supernatural doesn't mean I can't find value in the supernatural myths of the bible. As Marcus Borg has argued in his books, it's a matter of viewing the bible through a literal lense or a historical-metaphorical view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I apologize for being an absentee thread-lord. I've had some unexplained issues with my Internet service, and I never post on forums during work. It turns out our service line from the street was chewed on by squirrels! How ironic is that!? The World Wide Web brought to a screeching halt by a few hungry squirrels (apparently they LOVE coaxial cable). Anyhow, this thread is a real encouragement for me. The consensus seems to be that yes; an Atheist (I prefer the term Non-theist) can follow in the footsteps of Jesus. I've shared excerpts of this thread with some of the members of my Minyan, and they were surprised at the positive responses. I am very proud to say that I am a member of the Progressive Christianity Forum! Thanks everyone for participating. NORM That'll be enough of that, Norm. Soon you'll have the whole world coming together and sharing their love and fellowship, irrespective of religous labels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vridar Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Norm Asks: "Is it enough to emulate the words and actions of Jesus? Do those words command a belief in the supernatural deity as an a priori position to hold in order to claim the mantle of Christianity? Should the Bible be the sole (infallible?) source of knowledge on the subject? Can an atheist be a Christian?" Paul Asks: "Personally I think a person can be a follower of Jesus' teachings as a humanist; and if they follow Jesus then I suppose they can call themselves Christian, if that is what they want to be known as. What is in a label anyway?" George States: "I think that someone who sincerely identifies themself as a Christian is a Christian. This would almost certainly entail a theology or philosophy that centers on Jesus and recognition of the Bible as the primary religious text." WaySeeker Asks: "...as Dutch has mentioned, of who or what God is,..." Ron (Vridar) Responds: As a non-believer and mature (old) Bishop Spong Message Board poster I came back to see what my friend, fellow Spong poster, and religious mentor, GeorgeW, was up to. The switch to TCPC from Spong left me in the dark. I was aware early on this site is over my head. However, I have argued many sides of the atheist questions. Norm asks originally if an atheist can be a Christian. As others have mentioned, and I have still to read some posts, terms need defining. I dislike the term atheist as it could mean "against" theism. Agnostic I have come to accept as it meaning not known. Personally, I prefer Apatheist which will not be found in any lexicon. Defined by me Apatheist means "I don't care." And, truly, I don't. In the early 20th century being Christian was defined as believing 7 (I think) tenets. Accordingly, not believing one tenet disqualified one as a Christian. Using these tenets this Apatheist (Atheist, if you prefer) is not a Christian. I cannot believe in the virgin birth, nor the resurrection, nor the inerrant Bible. Nor do I believe a true Atheist can be a Christian. An Atheist can live Christian values, but cannot be a Christian as defined by most Christians. Most Atheists do follow Christ's teachings. I believe more so, percentage wise, than Christians. We do have the 4 horseman (one deceased) of the Atheists who are quite vocal and sometimes hateful, but, I think they make these noises to get noticed, if not to sell books. My friend, GeorgeW, helped me to evolve from a strong Atheist to my Apatheist self. He also could succinctly post in one sentence what just took me too many. Till next time, Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) Welcome to the forums, Vridar! The word atheism literally means without beliefs in god; -a means without and theism means beliefs in god. An atheist is merely someone who doesn't believe in God and says nothing about what they think about theism. An anti-theist is someone who is opposed to religion. Not every atheist is opposed to religion and there are even many religious atheists though they may not be as popular as the anti-religious variety of atheists. If we're defining Christianity by popular opinion, then you couldn't be a liberal Christian who doesn't believe in the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ because most Christian denominations require a belief in the divinity of Jesus and his resurrection from the dead but I don't think Jesus was about following what the popular crowd thought. Edited August 10, 2012 by Neon Genesis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vridar Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) Neon, agreed on most all accounts. So, an atheist cannot be a Christian under any circumstance? Correct? But an atheist can follow the commandments of Jesus? Correct? Edited August 10, 2012 by Vridar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I would say that following the teachings of Jesus is what being a Christian is about. I don't know why so many Christians think Christianity should be defined by beliefs instead of actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I don't know why so many Christians think Christianity should be defined by beliefs instead of actions. Maybe it's easier to 'believe' in something rather than live it out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Neon, agreed on most all accounts. So, an atheist cannot be a Christian under any circumstance? Correct? But an atheist can follow the commandments of Jesus? Correct? Vridar, First, I think that people get to choose their own labels. They might seem idiosyncratic although I think don't think a Christian atheist is. I believe more than a few Christians sense or believe that God does not intervene or that God is not omni-potent, etc but they do not change what they say about God because that would separate them from their social network provided by the church. Many Christians in Bible studies I participated in, when pressed to articulate their understandings of God, will rest on "God is love" as sufficient and the most satisfying statement. They find that God inhabits the golden rule. Again, by their actions the world knows Christians. The Western world is infatuated with propositions of belief and so the church has many such lists which divide as much as unite people and therefore we should be suspicious of them. When Interfaith Alliances are formed frequently it is "God is love" and the golden rule that allow them to tear down the fences built by credal propositions. It is the "golden rule" that unites.and IMO it is love and compassion, our highest values, that broaden the understanding of who is neighbor and how to love ourselves. As core values I can think nothing higher to be lifted up to be our guide and, if the goal of salvation is for us to be restored, made whole, then I can think of nothing else that can be as effective. No propositions about God can do the job. Dutch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vridar Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Dutch, Agreed. Love is important. As an Apatheist it is my first love (pun intended). It's interesting that the Golden Rule, or, as I like to refer to the negative Golden Rule, has been around forever. Cultures prior to Christianity quoted sayings such as, "Do not do unto others as you would have them not do unto you." So, the golden rule can even unite us Apatheists, which is not unlike uniting a herd of cats or frogs. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Ron, I have just returned from a couple of weeks away and found this thread still buzzing and with your participation. Thanks for the very kind words and welcome back. I hope you will be more active here in the future as you were a most valuable participant in the golden age of the Spong forum. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 Personally, I prefer Apatheist which will not be found in any lexicon. Defined by me Apatheist means "I don't care." And, truly, I don't. I think that I could describe myself as a fellow Apatheist. At this point in my life, I prefer not to align myself with any identifiable belief system. I trust only in the moment. An Atheist can live Christian values, but cannot be a Christian as defined by most Christians. -empahsis mine Ah, here is the crux of the issue. As defined by "most Christians." I think that as people evolve, the way we think and view things also must evolve. The seven tenets used to define Christianity, as Bishop Spong has so eloquently described, cease to be relevant in our society today. I think there is a movement of people who attach themselves to the philosophies of men (and I count the philosophy of Jesus among them) taking what kernels of wisdom they can glean in which to navigate this world. Thanks for sharing your insights, Ron. It is a pleasure to make your acquaintance. NORM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 In the parable about the attacked wayfarer, I wonder if it mattered to Jesus what the Samaritan's faith was? Was this not the whole point of the parable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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