glintofpewter Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 then couldn't pedophiles use this same argument? Love, Go to this thread. Posts 34,35 http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/1644-are-we-welcoming-of-those-of-all-sexual-orientations/page__pid__30957__st__20#entry30957 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Here is the question that I have been 'dealing' with for quite some time: If we are to accept homosexuality because they are also Gods children and sexuality is not a choice we are born homosexual or straight, then couldn't pedophiles use this same argument? I don't think that innateness is itself a good test of moral acceptability. The standard I would apply is harm. If no one is harmed by any behavior, why should anyone object? Hypothetically, what if homosexuality were a conscious choice (which it isn't)? Would that make it immoral? I say no. So, even if pedophilia is innate (and I don’t pretend to know whether it is or not), that cannot be a moral justification because of the harm that results. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt67 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I don't believe we have a choice. Does anyone hear really decide to love someone of their own sex or is it a natural tendency? I never had to think about my preference. That would mean that things like incest and pedophilia are innate too. I don't think so. These are results of trauma. Some Christians think that we are inclined to and are incapable of making a moral choice, but I disagree. Basically they think humans are nothing but animals, which is ironic, because they align themselves unwittingly with the "evolutionists" they claim to oppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hhanover Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Whoa. Pedophilia and incest are different because they involve rape. Rape bad, consent good. The end. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Whoa. Pedophilia and incest are different because they involve rape. Rape bad, consent good. The end. Hollis, Sweet and short. I think most all here would agree with your statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hhanover Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Look, this is not a criticism or adverse judgement on anyone - it just sounds like it. Does anyone else think it's kind of creepy to obsess about how and with whom other people have sex? I admit to thinking quite a bit about ME having sex, but to spend the apparent effort and time our politicians spend contemplating the sex acts off others points to something weird, perhaps. Just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Look, this is not a criticism or adverse judgement on anyone - it just sounds like it. Does anyone else think it's kind of creepy to obsess about how and with whom other people have sex? I admit to thinking quite a bit about ME having sex, but to spend the apparent effort and time our politicians spend contemplating the sex acts off others points to something weird, perhaps. Just saying. Absolutely! Why is homosexuality even an issue for hetro people? When I was a young churchgoer I accepted homophobia as God's will, but always wondered just what was so dangerous about it. Why weren't my fellow churchgoers equally so concerned about other sins? Looking back, it seems to me that people just adopted this homophobe view because that's what they were taught and they didn't question it. Of course it helps if one is never 'exposed' to homosexual company, because then there's no need to recognise them as just as fully human as hetros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hhanover Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 My observation is that "genital" sins are such a hot topic because we know when we or others have done them. It's a little more iffy when we contemplate pride, envy, greed, ignoring the poor, worshipping ephemeral idols like materialism (my specialty). I mean, really, isn't greed good? Ask Adam Smith, for crying out loud. And pride, isn't it healthy? Bumper stickers say "proud of my honor student" or "my C student can kick your honor student's butt". It is all very muddled unless you have been next door for a bit of bouncy with the neighbor lady. That one's clear at least. So, being a bit thick, we concentrate on the clear misdeeds - most often the clear misdeeds of others, of course. We indeed are a funny bunch. Hollis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I recently served as pastor in a Ucc church and we hung on our outside wall a banner which stated, "We believe God loves all people. ( a rainbow flag was placed under the statement.) In the two years that I worked there, I received over 100 calls from people. Most of the callers asked questions like: if you believe God accepts gay people do you think God accepts me; I am divorce? or me; I am working with out a green card? or the most moving was a man who called and asked if we believe God accepted him, he was dying from cancer. I am so use to living in a community of acceptance, that I could hardly believe these folks had not heard the message of love and acceptance from a Christian church. The message of removing "literal-ism" from the Bible and shouting it from the roof tops acceptance must be told, people are waiting to hear. One gay couple asked me just before their wedding, "can we really stand at the altar to exchange our vows?" Again, I was happy to say YES! If any one knows of people in the Seattle area that are brainstorming how to spread this message, I would love to dialogue with them. Thanks, Linda 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Linda, welcome to the forum. I applaud your efforts to reach out to those who may feel alienated. Also,I hope you will hang around awhile and contribute to the discussions. George 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 It is all very muddled unless you have been next door for a bit of bouncy with the neighbor lady. That one's clear at least. So, being a bit thick, we concentrate on the clear misdeeds - most often the clear misdeeds of others, of course We know what we do and we know what we consider 'out of bounds' and we know what we are afraid of - but we have no idea what happened next door unless they put on a show. And that's the problem. It's all in our heads and in our own fears. Sometimes relationship will help. Years ago I worked with several gays. One day one of them, out of his homophobia, described which acts and which positions he would or would not do. I was embarrassed - and surprised by his choices. We don't know. And I don't want to know. As long as it is an act which builds wholeness. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I recently served as pastor in a Ucc church and we hung on our outside wall a banner which stated, "We believe God loves all people. ( a rainbow flag was placed under the statement.) In the two years that I worked there, I received over 100 calls from people. Most of the callers asked questions like: if you believe God accepts gay people do you think God accepts me; I am divorce? or me; I am working with out a green card? or the most moving was a man who called and asked if we believe God accepted him, he was dying from cancer. I am so use to living in a community of acceptance, that I could hardly believe these folks had not heard the message of love and acceptance from a Christian church. The message of removing "literal-ism" from the Bible and shouting it from the roof tops acceptance must be told, people are waiting to hear. One gay couple asked me just before their wedding, "can we really stand at the altar to exchange our vows?" Again, I was happy to say YES! If any one knows of people in the Seattle area that are brainstorming how to spread this message, I would love to dialogue with them. Thanks, Linda Welcome Linda. I found that inspiring. Thank you.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inthedark Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) We need to be inclusive of all people if we are to become a civilised society. If a person chooses to have sexual relations with a person of the same sex and both are consenting adults, I say who cares? Good on them! In Christian circles I have often heard paedophilia introduced to this type of discussion, which is a little strange, and like comparing apples with peanuts. One involves a healthy sexual experience between consenting adult partners whilst the other involves causing extreme harm to a very vulnerable person by someone who holds power over that vulnerable individual. One act is an act of love and affection, which causes no harm whatsoever, whilst the other is a very destructive and harmful act all about power and control. Paul Edited July 27, 2012 by Inthedark 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 People love to talk about pedophilia when they talk about homosexuality. It always makes me sad. Are some gay men pedophiles? Of course - as are some straight men. Being gay does not make one a pedophile any more than being straight does. The United Church of Canada has made some great strides in this battle, and I hope we will continue to do so. I believe that, almost always, our sexual orientation is as much a part of us as our eye colour or our height. It's in our wiring. I don't believe people can "choose" to be gay or straight, or anything else. And I don't believe that God would create people just to condemn them. On the other hand, let's say that sexual orientation IS a choice - what does it matter? As long as everyone is consenting (both literally and legally), then I don't care who does what to whom. Do your thing. Just don't harm anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 People love to talk about pedophilia when they talk about homosexuality. It always makes me sad. Are some gay men pedophiles? Of course - as are some straight men. Being gay does not make one a pedophile any more than being straight does. Following the Sandusky incident (the football coach at the Penn State convicted of sexually abusing boys), I asked someone who had done a lot of mental-health counseling about what motivates a pedophile to prefer boys or girls. He said he was not an expert in this, but to his knowledge pedophilia is independent of sexual orientation and homosexual men (who are pedophiles) are attracted to boys and heterosexual men (who are pedophiles) are attracted to girls. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 It's always bothered me how religious institutions seem to have so much hate for love & sex. No wonder so many people grow up with sexual hang-ups. The church, like the state, has no business being in people's bedrooms. Everyone of age? Good. Everyone consenting? Good. Everyone fully aware of everyone else's STIs (if applicable)? Good. Get on with it then. Surely, in 2012, we have better things to worry about than who does what to whom - ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Raven, This may be one of those instances (I think rare) where reason can overcome our inclination to be revulsed by sexual activity that deviates from the norm. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murmsk Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 So where does polygamy fall in this discussion? steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 So where does polygamy fall in this discussion? ------------------- Do the relationships contribute to the wholeness of all involved? The weakness of using this as a sole criteria is that often we do not know what is good for ourselves. Polygamy more often than not I suspect is about power and not relationship. I will have to look up the evolutionary view. It does favor the male's genes but I forget what the best stategy for a woman is. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 So where does polygamy fall in this discussion? Steve, I don't know that it does fall within this discussion. What do you have in mind? (BTW, thanks for supporting the forum) George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 So where does polygamy fall in this discussion? ------------------- Do the relationships contribute to the wholeness of all involved? The weakness of using this as a sole criteria is that often we do not know what is good for ourselves. Polygamy more often than not I suspect is about power and not relationship. I will have to look up the evolutionary view. It does favor the male's genes but I forget what the best stategy for a woman is. Dutch Dutch, Thank you so much for your observation. As a gay male, I can say that wholeness in a relationship IS very important to me. It was also a key factor in the ruling of the California Supreme Court when it determined that gay marriage was in the best interest of wholeness in relationships, including the children of gay couples. Myron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Healthy adult relationship exhibit mutuality in relationships. This is powerful, but mutuality is also a limiting factor. It takes work. It involves adult trust in another. It involves a high level of adult intimacy. It can be scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I've been having this discussion with a fundy friend of mine who is anti-homosexual (no suprises there I guess). Too often he keeps bringing beastality, paedophilia, and polygamy into the mix linking them in some biazarre way to homosexuality, whenever I raise the the point that gays don't choose to be gay, they simply are. Clearly the first two I always refute on the grounds that they're non-consensual and actually harm people against their will. Polygamy, whilst not strictly against a person's will, I do wonder if these relationships are formed out of love. I seriously doubt it. I think for the man they are formed out of the context of his religious belief (I wonder if there are any non-religous polygamists?) as they are for the women who I think, misguidely, believe they are fulfilling God's will first, and marrying out of love second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 A gay friend and mentor once told be that a monagamous relationship was all he could handle, but the rewards were worth it. Later in life I heard the same message from straight couples. Not too long ago I met an man who had been in a monagamous relationship for more than 50 years. He was a member of my church. Many times he would turn to me with a look of absolute marvel in his eyes as he looked at his wife and say "I've known her for more 50 years and I still don't understand her." It was the look in his eyes. A love formed over many years. I'll never forget it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murmsk Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Steve, I don't know that it does fall within this discussion. What do you have in mind? Well I can see situations where there could be a loving, non-dominating relationship between three adults especially if bisexuality is involved. The reason I ask is it is a bit outside my current comfort zone as homosexuality once was. With respect to my current discomfort, my brain tells me it is another prejudice. I was wondering how others view it? steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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