JosephM

I really don't give because of thought, as least not conscious thought although i will admit that thought and reason enters in and often tries to change my action. Thinking about it and finding reasons is what the mind seems to want to do. But giving doesn't have to come from thinking about it. The decision arises and 'feels' peaceful and right in the heart and then thoughts arise to change or justify the decision that one knew was best in the first place. At least that is the way i see it. For your second paragraph. I don't view the man Jesus as God anymore than another though i might recognize the God in him so i can't comment on those that do. Also your last question in that paragraph, at least to me, is unanswerable. My best guess is that if Jesus was led to take the trip, he would and fate would be served. If led to stop a child from starving instead then that would have been his action. One can't say without knowing the will of God in a particular case for Jesus. Third paragraph, yes, that is in my view, a judgement. There is a diversity of those who call themselves Christians as you are well aware. Perceiving is what we humans do as sentient beings for the most part. So, it seems offences will come and intensify unless we are very vigilant to catch them early and change course before they develop and become unrepairable or non-contributory to our original purpose. Just my personal thoughts.

In a religious context, sin is an act of transgression against divine law. Each culture has its own interpretation of what it means to commit a sin In my estimation, what i said is the religious Christian connotation in the New Testament as i interpret it from the words of Paul as recorded in his letters to the churches. Read every occurance of the word sin in the NT and i think you might agree. I agree that many may look at it differently from church teachings (there are many , many varieties of Christianity) but Paul, whose writings make up a large part of the NT seem to agree with what i have said. Even the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the OT can be construed to be in agreement. PS I also try not to use the term "sin" because of some church teachings and ------> HERE is an old post on it without using the word

The world is not broken as it may appear. It is unfolding. The poor, the rich, givers, takers, the Christian, the agnostic, the atheist, the starving, etc. are all here to enable the divine purpose of the universe to unfold. Each one is important to that purpose or else it seems to me it would not be here at this moment in time. In my experience we have only been given the power to transform ourselves. In doing so it can and does influence change in others. While you may not be trying to guilt anyone and just trying to understand what you perceive from your view of reality, it may come across differently when you assume others are drawing a line with their beliefs as you say you are. Lines are inherently divisive by definition. As i pointed out in my last post, whether one spends their wealth on themselves or directly on others it all goes toward making employment for others and an opportunity for many others to lift themselves and in turn, others up also. It seems to me you are affected emotionally and otherwise by what most consider the less fortunate in the world and the view you have of some but not all Christians, their perceived beliefs and charity. We all do what we do and it seems good to me not to look at it as a line or limit in ourself or the other. Just my personal view.

In my view the confusion here is that Sin is a particular action itself per-se when it is in reality actually not . Sin is what results in your psyche as a result of breaking a law that you have created/acknowledged as valid by your beliefs. It has very real earthly consequences. (conscious/unconscious guilt and self condemnation) Without a law (written or unwritten) sin would not exist. In that sense it is not nonsense except to one who is not familiar with the concept and its effects. The concept and consequences are not limited to a religion nor its absence although the specific use of the word (sin) might be.

Certainly, Jesus is not portrayed as one who would buy a new TV over giving his money to the poor though he also is recorded as allowing expensive ointment for his feet rather than selling it and giving the money to the poor. And that is where it records him saying "the poor will always be with you " but i will not. Now i am not saying that is a reason to not to give to those in need, i am just saying that each gives and lives a life according to the grace that is given them, whether it is in the name of Jesus or some other. If you feel that to "be a Christian" it is necessary to give all and have no worldly possessions then perhaps that is something for you to thrive for or draw a line as you say you do? Personally i have found that i do not feel that way. For the past 39 years i have supported my family, more orphans that i can count on my fingers and still do on a monthly basis along with the less fortunate elderly non related persons and i still am able to earn money not working to continue doing so which i could not have done by giving all my money and worldly possessions away and then having to depend on others for housing and food myself. As you know, i just got back from a luxury cruise which one could say i should have spent on the poor and suffering instead of my own personal pleasure. That was a viable option. Does that make me less a progressive Christian for not taking that option. I don't think so. I helped provide wages for service from Croatians, Ukrainians, Romanians, Italians, people from India, and a host of other poorer countries than ours that were part of the help on the cruise. Did i draw a line? Or is my prosperity and purchasing of what some consider luxury items for myself doing more helping others less fortunate and allowing them the opportunity to help others through wages from their employment? I don't know the best answer except to say, i am confident that i am fulfilling that part of the the divine plan for the universe to unfold according to the grace given me. Joseph

I think Paul has a valid point here. Since sin is a transgression of the law (religious law in this case of its use) sin requires both a consenting law that one puts oneself under and judgement. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all those who believe. (Rom 10:4) Sin is not imputed where there is no law. To him/her that esteems something to be immoral and then commits the act, to him/her, it is sin. They have judged themself.

Everybody couldn't be like Jesus and live like Jesus. There had to be those to support him with food and lodginging and that needed to listen to his message. His message to literally leave family and friends and follow him (live like him) wasn't to everyone. Only to a handful of chosen apostles. The soldiers came to him asking what they should do along with many others in different trades. He didn't say to stop doing what they were doing or to give all their money to the poor. That wasn't his message to them. To the soldiers It was to not accuse falsely or extort money and be content with your wages and to tax collectors " don't collect anymore than you are required to" (Luke 3:13-14). The line you speak of that people (followers of Jesus) appear to draw, in my view, is each according to the grace that is given them. Reasons to me are just a cover-up of the reasoning mind.

In my view, there is no "should they (Christians) be doing more". Helping the poor or those in poverty is not a task limited to a religion or single group of people. People are doing what they are currently both willing and able to do. Some do more and some do less, each according to ones own convictions and unction given one. I personally do not believe giving all your money will do away with poverty. I also do not believe it is governments job to do so. There is a myriad of factors that contribute to poverty and realizing that, i chose to do what i am able and willing to do joyfully without guilt or measuring it against the performance of others..

GC, When a man creates a New Will and testament it replaces the Old otherwise there will be much confusion. The New Testament is now made valid for Christians and it replaces the Old. Otherwise it would have been written and called the supplement to the Old Testament and not called the New Testament. That is my way of looking at it. As far as homosexuallity is concerned, all i know for sure is that the gay people i personally know seem like the most loving, caring and sensitive people i have met that would harm no one. I would say let God be God and the judge and those of us who still see darkly ..... forgiving and non-judgemental. For with what measure you measure , it shall be measured back unto you. That i believe is a good reason to leave condemnation and judgement out of one's personal hands. One greater than yourself is able to sort things out on such as this issue.

Kudos! Well put.

Picky, Picky, Picky. 🙂 Not saying you are wrong BUT ... it is my opinion that you are being a bit unreasonable on this issue. He was a self proclaimed Apostle of Jesus and did the miracles as a servant and in the authority of the master (Corinthians) which he referred to as Jesus. (the servant is not above the master) Read ALL the text that you attribute to Paul for yourself and i think you might be a bit more reasonable and conceding on this small issue. 🙂😄😊😄 PS Not asking you to believe in miracles just that according to the NT the collaboration of Paul confirms miracles were performed by Jesus and later by the apostles to a reasonable man that accepts the writing therein.

Welcome to the forum ST. Jump right in if there is anything you would like to discuss. Joseph

Yes, it would be reasonable if you believe Paul wrote Corinthians that he believed Jesus also performed miracles. Whether he believed it was "just exactly like those outlined in the Gospels" i did not say because those Gospels were not published for him to read at that time.

Good try Paul but read more of Corinthians.... I find this reasonable to assume Paul supported miracles as a follower of Jesus. 2 Corinthians is universally regarded as an authentic letter of Paul, not a later forgery.) In this letter Paul wrote, “The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles” (2 Corinthians 12:2). As he tried to assert his God-given authority as an apostle, Paul reminded his readers about the signs, wonders, and miracles he did when he was with them. This fits our description of self-authenticating testimony. If Paul had done no signs, wonders, and miracles while he was in Corinth, he would have lost all credibility the moment the church read that claim. Why? Because they would have known better. So, we can conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Paul did, in fact, perform miraculous deeds in Corinth. ....... according to Paul's letter to the Corinthians unless you want to disregard or play that down also. 🙂

Paul, I'll buy your point that Paul was not the writer of the book of Acts and yes, of course we have no way of proving that everything is recorded accurately BUT, since we are using Paul of the NT and you are limiting me to his writings then it makes reasonable sense to me that a reading of Corinthians and the gifts of the spirit by Paul would obviously support the idea that Paul, a follower of Jesus was including Jesus in miracles because he attributed to Jesus the fullness of the Spirit. Having said that, that is not the reason i believe Jesus did perform miracles although its a reasonable assumption supported by the NT (perhaps not exactly as reported) but because that gift and a few of the others mentioned have been confirmed by my own personal experiences.

Paul, I would beg to differ the point that Paul doesn't support the gist material such as miracles. He supports it as gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12. He is also recorded by others in Acts preforming miracles himself. Acts 14:10, !9:11-12, also Acts 20:10, Acts 28:8 and more.

Welcome John. Join in or start a topic that interests you.

What can we do about it that we are not already doing? Approximately 2 people in 1000 (1.7) are homeless in the US. What does it take to solve the problem? Is there even a solution?

Of course there are other books that inspire us. "Just about any book", i personally don't think so but you are entitled to such a belief.

I think Ehrman says "Romans had to have a reason to crucify a person. There had to be a criminal charge. There could be lots of charges – runaway slaves, brigands, insurrectionists, all could be crucified. So why was Jesus crucified? The Gospels tell us, and in this particular case, there are very good reasons for thinking what they say is right. Jesus was crucified for calling himself King of the Jews." However Pilate found no basis for a charge against him and found him innocent. From reading Ehrmans blog, he makes the assumption, he called himself King of the Jews. . He was accused of it by those who wanted him dead but there is no record in the NT he claimed to be King of the Jews. So much for the verifiable of what authors such as Ehrman write. Assumptions may be reasonable but they are really just best guesses or conjecture on Ehrmans part. We could also assume Pilate's use of the term king of the Jews (v. 39) is obviously sarcastic since he has just said Jesus poses no political threat.

Thomas, I don't think you will find in the NT where Jesus "called himself King of the Jews" . If i am mistaken, please correct me and reference the writing that says so. Joseph

It is ok to have this OP in debate and dialog if one desires to have debate on the subject. It is not ok in the PC forum for all to participate because we do not allow debate in that section for the most part. it is a safe area for people who want to ask PC questions but do not want to hear from people who do not identify as such. (or are not in agreement with the 8 points). There is no harm asking the question in this section if the one who asks wants to hear from both those who identify as such and those who don't. This is something that was asked for and decided upon many years ago. Rom is welcome to post his views/thoughts on the question in this area. Joseph (as Admin)

One thing i hope is not lost in this discussion (validity or reliability) is the many inspirational messages that can be gleamed from the NT. If there is one book i read as a young man (over 50 years ago) that had a tremendous impact on my life, it would be "The Power of Positive Thinking" by Norman Vincent Peale. Most of the inspiration from the book comes directly from the words of the NT. It uses a portion of the writings both of the Old and New Testament that can be applied to unlearn a negative pattern of living. He shows how one can use optimism and faith to change ones pattern of mind and overcome obstacles. He does this by using positive re-enforcing writings from the NT that when put in practice helps to change lives to one more filled with success, joy and satisfaction. In using the NT as he prescribes, we get away from doctrine and questions of validity and reliability and test the power of words directly for ourselves by applying them to our life and witnessing results for ourselves.

Welcome to the forum CJM, No struggle here with a plain cross as a necklace or pendant. Personally I haven't worn one for over 30+ years but If I had the inclination i would have no problem wearing it. To me it symbolizes to be dead to self and alive unto Christ but it seems to me it means different things to different people. So as not to contribute to the confusion i choose not to wear it but rather let my life reflect any message it symbolizes. Joseph

Still looking for 7 monthly sponsors. You can be a guest who enjoys reading this forum or a member. Your support helps to keep this forum online as a database wealth of views and information. Don't forget it includes an advertising spot on threads for your paper or book or site . Won't be asking again here in the news but your financial support of 20.00 keeps this forum alive. More information in 1st post of this thread HERE ....------->>>>>