JosephM

What is your current experience that makes that an illusion? Are we talking of the same kind of current experience as the past one or is your current experience based on study, reasoning and thinking that has made your past experience into an assumed illusion?

Sometimes our experiences are limited by our understanding. The mind can make a familiar image to fit its understanding. It is no less real because it might have been the only way your mind could accept it at the time. You mentioned nothing other than the presence of God in the form of an image you were familiar with. Any other form of communication, feeling or sense? I don't doubt that your experience was real. When i was a toddler i had experiences i couldn't process at the time and to do so would also seem today as an illusion because i could not compare it to words only symbols i was taught. But later i was able to receive in a more meaningful way. It made none of my prior experiences less real. In my experience, God doesn't speak in words. We know and then translate to the best of our understanding. That's why it is so difficult to communicate that which has no language. It is more accurately sensed or felt in my experience. We are limited in communications to others in this realm by language and our mastery of it but words are not needed while experiencing God.

I don't know what the Muslim experience is and you may not either to even make a judgement . Why assume anything without personal knowlege? It seems to me better to not compare so called experiences of others. It seems to me better to seek out your own and then there will be understanding. Also i never said anothers experience wasn't true. I was just challenging your information that the Muslim had an experience directly from God to even use to say one was true and one not.

It's not a concept or belief. It is an experience that seems to go beyond the 5 senses we are familiar with. How do you know that this experience is accurate? You "know" because the evidence while unseen is present and known. In fact it is sometimes verifiable by the experiencer and others present even though it can't be repeated at will. There you go .... thinking about what the "fanatical Muslim" is thinking. It seems to me you assume too much about him unless you have direct knowledge of his thinking. I have never heard a Muslim say he preformed an atrocious act because God told him by other than his interpretation in a book. But i am open to such a testimony if you will provide one. Some Christians also say God told me and mean the Bible said it so i believe it was God because that is his word. Some things i believe. They are not from "knowing" .... mostly thinking and reasoning. They are not made real by my thinking and are subject to change. Some things i "know" and they were not obtained except by experience beyond what most consider normal. If you wish me to make you understand how my experience is more accurate or real than the Muslim how can you expect me to provide an answer since i have no "fanatical Muslim" here to question and determine any differences. I can only speak or share for myself. Not trying to convince anyone what is real to them or more accurate.

This PC forum is accepting of you Rom and it is good to have you here but i would not call your opinions nonsense even if the thought entered my mind. I hope you will consider that others don't find it compassionate to refer to their positions as nonsense even though you might not mind it yourself. It get you nowhere close to what i hope you are trying to accomplish (getting people to consider other ideas) by using such phrases. That is my opinion and one of the guidelines of etiquette on this forum. Try to be more sensitive in getting your points across. Thanks for your presumed understanding, JosephM (as Moderator)

Oh. I do have further insight that might help you to form your own assumptions on the experience. They would comprise of Impressions and feelings that follow such. I just didn't perceive that you were asking with the whole Muslim thing question before. So here goes. The experience happened numerous times while driving, while alone, while in the presence of others, while meditating, while relaxing and flying an airplane to mention a few that come to mind. It is something i can't make happen by conscious control though there is usually a need for it whether for myself or another. In other words i have no conscious control over bringing on the experience that i am aware of. I count it a gift. During an experience there is a feeling of no separation not only between God and Self but also the other if involved. There is a sense of no fear, no locality and a sense of Home that is difficult to describe afterwards. There are no questions, nor doubt in such a state, only knowing. Sometimes one toggles back and forth so as to bring in a question the self might have. When it has returned to a more normal state there is a sense of inexplicable peace and joy. No i do not take drugs, not even aspirins , The only exception is in the last few years i use eye drops so i will not lose my eye from pressure. That should be a start for your questions for a better understanding if such can be had without experiencing this for yourself.

Bold Emphasis added by me. I think that is very profound. It seems to me that doing so (blindly following) is what got us locked into what we now feel the need to be free from.

Notice i said obvious to "most all", not all. Very few in percentage of people agree with the throat splitter. My guess is less than 1 % and 0% on this forum. 🙂 Yes, i believe your intentions were as you say but put yourself in the shoes of the other. If you told me you believe or experienced hell and i use an example saying people believe in little green men from Mars to contrast your experience, what would you think? Was i probing your experience or making light of it? You be the judge. I'll stand by your verdict. Guilty or Not! 😛🙂🙂

You will never "know" God by a concept. You can believe in a concept but you can only "know" something by becoming one with it even if only for a brief moment. You can learn much about a butterfly by dedicating your life's study to it but you will never "know" the butterfly except to be one with it. In my experience it is the same with God Personal experience is not a concept that can be defended or argued for or against without being personal Read it. It ends with a question. It's obvious that most all would doubt their (the extremist Muslim) experience of God concerning sliting throats, etc. Now why would you mention it in response to what i said was my innate experience except to refute what i said rather than to ask questions to understand it but instead by using an extreme example as an argument to negate an experience? Or assume it is the same as the example? 😛😄 PS : No offence taken here ... just thought you needed a good tongue lashing ! 🙂

The answer you were seeking is most obvious to me. It was agreement that there should be doubt concerning the Muslim and that was in response to my statement that i know there is a God.

Paul, You are assuming and assuming is fine with me if that is your cup of tea. I was just sharing and was not looking for you to refute the possibility that my experience is real by comparing it to a suicide bomber. I don't know what they are thinking that makes them do what they do. There are many counterfeits in this world but that doesn't preclude the existence of the real. Perhaps you read harm or radical into my words?

You can suspect the experiences of others all you want. I have nothing against your belief or your not knowing. You will never know til it happens to you.

WHo of them said it was innate knowing on their part? I can only speak for myself and own experience. Can you show me the Muslim that claims innate knowledge or is his just a belief from a book that says its okay? You admit you can't above so why assume his claim is the same as mine? What claim have i made that you would compare what i said to your extremist Muslim example?

You can't by reason or by axioms know God. You can believe in God by reason but knowing is innate and doesn't require thought. In fact it is realized without thought. If i were to convince you by reason and axioms that there is a God you still would not "know".

Reason has its limitations and the traditional sense of real can be ... well traditional ... and outdated . Perhaps there is a sixth sense or even more and while the world seems only real to your 5 senses, your experience of it may be misleading as you point out. Yet, it certainly doesn't discount the experience of those who have gone beyond that which we call reasoning using the 5 senses.

By calling ourselves progressive Christians, we mean we are Christians who… 1. Believe that following the path of the teacher Jesus can lead to healing and wholeness, a mystical connection to “God,” as well as an awareness and experience of not only the Sacred, but the Oneness and Unity of all life; 2. Affirm that the teachings of Jesus provide but one of many ways to experience “God,” the Sacredness, Oneness and Unity of life, and that we can draw from diverse sources of wisdom, including Earth, in our spiritual journey; 3. Seek and create community that is inclusive of ALL people, including but not limited to: Conventional Christians and questioning skeptics, Believers and agnostics, Those of all races, cultures, and nationalities Those of all sexual orientations and all gender identities, Those of all classes and abilities, Those historically marginalized, All creatures and plant life; 4. Know that the way we behave towards one another and Earth is the fullest expression of what we believe, therefore we vow to walk as Jesus might have walked in this world with radical compassion, inclusion, and bravery to confront and positively change the injustices we experience as well as those we see others experiencing; 5. Find grace in the search for understanding and believe there is more value in questioning with an open mind and open heart, than in absolutes or dogma; 6. Work toward peace and justice among all people and all life on Earth; 7. Protect and restore the integrity of our Earth and all of Creation; 8. Commit to a path of life-long learning, compassion, and selfless love on this journey toward a personally authentic and meaningful faith. Notes: We’ve heard you and in our many conversations with our readership, Progressive Christian pastors, theologians, scholars, visionaries, and in our observations and studies, we have co-created this updated version of our 8 Points of Progressive Christianity. Progressive Christianity is inherently always evolving and progressing. Please take these lightly but seriously. They are not dogma, they are simply a starting point to establish conversations and a foundation of values and beliefs that we have observed Progressive Christians generally share. It’s ok if you don’t agree with all the words or all the parts. We support your authentic path. You can use these in your faith communities and with family and friends to talk about what it means to you to be a Progressive Christian in today’s world. Here is to always progressing! Copied from - ProgressiveChristianity.org by JosephM

Dee, Progressive Christian. As Burl indicated it is a broad swath of Christian organizations. Our parent organization ProgressiveChristianity.org alone is comprised of a global network of progressive churches/ individuals listed on 194 pages on our parent site Here ----> https://progressivechristianity.org/global-network/ that can be sorted by state or country. The latest wording of the 8 points that are general principles many use as a guide to the label of Progressive Christian on this site and the wording should be taken lightly and is found here ...

Progressive Christianity.org Discussion Board is an internet support community of individuals, mostly consisting of but not limited to those that embraces pluralism and the eight points of Progressive Christianity. An internet place of reaching out and encouragement to those for whom organized religion has proved ineffectual, irrelevant, or repressive, as well as to those who have given up on or are unacquainted with it. A safe place of discussion and sharing of ones views and thoughts concerning the journey or quest for truth and spiritual discovery. A place of challenging discussions where participants come to both share and learn. A community that gets away from systematized, exclusive absolutes, and where intellectual honesty is much more likely to be valued. The discussion board welcomes all to participate, including but not limited to Conventional Christians and questioning skeptics, believers and agnostics, women and men, those of all sexual orientations and gender identities and those of all classes and abilities. Because of such a diversity of people and views, the discussion board is divided into individual forum each with its own guidelines and is strictly moderated without censorship or restriction of views yet with the requirement of mutual respect for others of differing views. A place where respect for the other and verbal behavior in discussions is more important than any view expressed. It’s a community of welcome without the bonds of having to accept the formal dogma and doctrines of man disguised as the church system, holy books, laws or rituals. Tell us a little bit about yourself and join in on the discussions. Joseph Mattioli ( Site owner in service to Progressive Christianity .org)

Yes, however this evidence i spoke of is not seen in a modern scientific context because the eyes / observation in your case may be limited to either the range of physical sight / equipment or in some cases to a later direct effect observed as evidence. It would appear that faith in the context i give does become a little circular but the evidence is in the experience of the unseen that manifests itself in an inexplicable "knowing" that in the 'now' leaves absolutely no doubt in certainty. Many times this faith (outside of merely Jung's statement) has results that are indeed verifiable to the experiencer but not necessarily repeatable at will to others. Why? I can't say. It can always be explained away by one who requires evidence in the modern scientific context but to the one with the experience, no such evidence is required other than that which is given in that gift of faith..

I would identify as such and believe i understand your disagreement. Dismissing such a statement as a faith statement would be a most normal view, however i don't identify the word faith as most do. I identify the word most closely with the way it is described in Hebrew 11:1 which is difficult to grasp without experiencing. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Most probably it is.

I can relate to Carl Jung's answer. I would say the same thing.

This is exactly what inclusiveness means. Communicating ones belief is part of inclusiveness but when it comes to the point of i am right and you are wrong a line is drawn. It has become personal. Getting personal will get one excluded. At that point sometimes some thoughts are better left unsaid. Well, that seems to be the risk we take with the first amendment and to live in peace with others. To me, in my view, the alternative is not acceptable. Beliefs are allowed to be communicated and one can state their opposing belief in response but if it reaches the point of calling names, insulting or getting personal to me it crosses the line of inclusion here and in progressive Christianity in general. I will listen to a person who believes in slavery and his /her reason/s why, perhaps ask questions to better understand their thinking, perhaps point out a few things they might consider which may alter their thinking, and then drop it. Why argue and escalate into something personal?(rhetorical) It will not serve anything except to further alienate us and end an opportunity of reconciliation to a peaceful existence. In my view, the moment we become argumentative we may find our self crossing into irrational and unproductive territory.

Just to explain the one word in a different way ...... Inclusion includes people with different beliefs but is not inclusive of harmful actions. Hence the statement in that point that behavior is the fullest expression of what we believe. On this site stating your belief will not get you excluded from the community because we are inclusive of differing beliefs but not behavior such as being disrespectful to others or verbal attacks or violating our compassionate post guidelines. That will get one excluded. One could argue we are excluding someone for their beliefs because they believe insulting others is okay or justified. However, it is the action, not the belief that would get one excluded. That's why it is best to leave somethings unsaid at times even though we might feel it is true or that we are justified in saying it.