JosephM

I would vote to have it removed. If i lost the vote, i would let it go or if so inclined work toward garnering more votes to have it removed peaceably in the future. You take it out of context by quoting a partial sentence. (a no-no on this site) What i said "A statue if historical, does no harm to me and if anything acts as a reminder of the past not to be repeated." Besides what i am advocating is non-violence change by the majority rather than the minority who violently destroy them and encourage it There is a peaceful way for change and a violent way. While i am not bothered or harmed by a statue of Hitler, i would vote to remove it on community property of which i am a part. If it was on private property and not against the law, then i respect the right of the other and it does me no harm and if it does harm to you then it seems to me, you need to get over it or move away or work to change the law. Vietnam Conflict. Joined voluntarily in Jan 1965. Yes there are limits to free speech and expression. Limits are also placed on community property and on some private property by laws or ordinances. (ie: in my community you can't put up signs on your property, put up a mailbox, hang clothes outside, or keep a boat in your driveway to mention a few.) I signed up when i bought so it is a community ordinance that limits what i can do. I have no problem with legal limits and working within the law to change them if desired or necessary. Should the flag you mention be flown or left stranding in public? It's up to the the community and the laws of the land, not just me or my opinion. In my view, individual and ethnic teaching and education. A pew research poll shows that Blacks place more importance on ethnicity than other ethnic backgrounds. We Italians were once in that boat in the US as were the Irish and other groups and there was much violence. Peaceful assimilation into society requires that your ethnic background not be more important than the society you are assimilating into. Otherwise, it seems to me, peace will not come as 'them' and 'us' refuses to exist as one.

That's right and it should be an expression of the community to determine what statues are displayed on public property and not a violent minority removing them by violence. As far as private property, we fought for freedom of speech and i am not bothered by one who wishes to display a confederate flag or statue or picture of Hitler though i would never vote for such a thing on community property. And in that case i would respect the vote of the majority. No harm to me either way but the point is obviously that the community at the time felt it appropriate whether to honor someone or just as a historical marker and there is a more peaceful way of changing it. Will you support violence to remove those statues over community rulings just because it in your opinion should be removed? Agreed, however it must be done peaceably not forceably.

Hi 4BeanMix, Welcome to the community. You are not alone as a lot of x-Catholics have moved on to a similar more progressive stance. Many people have passed through this site on their personal journey and I'm hoping you will find discussions beneficial to your own personal journey until that time. Joseph

First of all i am a human being. Second i am an American and of least importance i am an Italian. To me my ethnic background is of trivial importance to me at this stage of life. A statue if historical, does no harm to me and if anything acts as a reminder of the past not to be repeated. . In your hypothetical my answer would be i would be wisest to get over it and i would benefit by ignoring and not giving the inanimate object power over me. In America we have freedom of speech and expression and that goes whether i agree with what is being expressed or not. If my neighbor wants to fly the Confederate flag next door, that is his right that i paid for with 4 years of my life. I don't have to agree with him but i respect his right to express himself. However, If he brings physical harm to my house i will exercise my rights that i sacrificed 4 years for to bring an end to his/her harm. What i see as a great problem for many is that when ethnicity becomes more important than our humanity there becomes a strong inclination for the dichotomy of a them and an us.which seems to me to do nothing for peace as an individual or society.

As to do with Cancel Culture as relates to "doing no harm". If a statue offend you, then ignore them. History is to be remembered , not forgotten. If we are to be harmed by statues that to me represent history but to you may represent something else..... then where do we draw the line? Some people are sensitive and offended by the slightest thing. How do we identify doing harm to the other? and where do we draw the line over things that one needs to get over and things that do need to be changed? Exactly what does the statement in the other thread by Paul S. mean when he says "All power to you whatever that may be, as long as you cause no harm, in my opinion." What about the lyrics " 'If I'm doing no harm, it shouldn't bother you'. Like wise, 'If you're doing no harm, it shouldn't bother me" that Ellen quoted and PaulS said "Sounds sound to me! " How do you apply that to all this Cancel Culture thread? Is the defining of harm to others always opinion?

VR, It would be best to put under our special topics forum under book discussions or media, whichever is more appropriate to the discussion.

I would agree with that. I don't think it is a myth but the Bible version in my opinion may contain some past down confabulations.

Here is a paragraph from the president of ProgressiveChristianity.com Fred Plumer. "I also suspect that even if a group of progressive Christians gathered to discuss the same subject, we would have a hard time agreeing on what we mean by the term God. It would be easier, I presume, for most of us to agree upon what we did not mean. We might be willing to let go, for example, the idea of some anthropomorphic being who may or may not respond to our prayers and supplications. Most of us would probably reject the idea of a supernatural theism that has haunted Western Christianity for over 1600 years. But things might start getting tense when we tried to decide if God is a separate entity or whether we believed in a non-dualistic creation, and “God” is in all things. We might resort to terms like pantheism, panentheism or even something called creatheism, (God is a holy name of Ultimate Reality), but I doubt even in this select group that we could agree on descriptive characteristics of God that would fit everyone’s perspective or anyone’s perspective for that matter. We might wonder if so many of us say we believe in “God,” why is it so difficult for us to agree on what we mean?" Perhaps this is because God is unfathomable or a supreme Mystery incapable of of definition by language.

Many Progressive Christians today identify with Panentheism. In panentheism, God is viewed as the soul of the universe, the universal spirit present everywhere, which at the same time "transcends" all things created. While pantheism asserts that "all is God", panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe.

Hi viatimor, I would not be interested in contributing through Zoom or Google meet. I think this site would be sufficient for your discussion and anything external would take away from this forum function. You could make arrangements to meet in a thread on this site for your discussions with those so inclined. Joseph

Yes, welcome to the group. Feel free to present your specific ideas.

Ellen, I think that your perception of the word of god is as good as any i have heard. What it is NOT seems to me to be easier to define.

The 8 points while some may see them as dogmatic in my view they are not as they are subject to change as you have seen over the years. The 8 points in my view is not a belief system nor dogma. Here on our main ProgressiveChristianity.org site it reads ......... " Progressive Christianity is inherently always evolving and progressing. Please take these lightly but seriously. They are not dogma, they are simply a starting point to establish conversations and a foundation of values and beliefs that we have observed Progressive Christians generally share. It’s ok if you don’t agree with all the words or all the parts. We support your authentic path."

It seems to me regardless of the location (US, Austrailia, UK, etc.) when ethnic origin becomes more important to an individual than assimilating into that established society, there will always be a THEM and an US , whether white against black or black against white or any minority based on color or religion or culture, racism will prosper and always provide an opportunity to pop up its ugly head. We can have diversity but it must include assimilation for peace and law and order to prevail. That's my two cents or if your Australian with more than 2 cents, 2 bobs.🙂

Trump - great payout One may need to know Biden's running mate before betting. He seems to have a major problem affecting him.

It is. It's out of control.

On the lighter side ...... Thanks, Joseph 😃😄

The young speak out. She says it all.mp4

Perhaps this letter might clear up my trivialization. Quite true but humorous at same time

Paul, In the US we give preferential treatment to minorities. There are 14 Federal Grant programs specifically for minorities. In many cases to meet quotas Blacks are hired over more qualified Whites. For federal contractors and subcontractors, affirmative action must be taken by covered employers to recruit and advance qualified minorities, women, persons with disabilities, and covered veterans. Affirmative actions include training programs, outreach efforts, and other positive steps. These procedures should be incorporated into the company's written personnel policies. Employers with written affirmative action programs must implement them, keep them on file and update them annually. And then there is minority private organizations and Federally sponsored organizations to0 numerable to mention .... These well-known organizations administer grant and scholarship programs for ethnic minority students. United Negro College Fund advances education for African American students through scholarships and other aid programs. ... Hispanic College Fund. Bureau of Indian Affairs. American Indian College Fund. NAACP. African American College Grants and many more And Here is a rare CNN article on black privilege. If i formed an organization for the advancement of white people that would be racism. Perhaps this article might give you some insight to both sides of an issue in why many Americans (Black, White and all minorities) are getting fed up with all this racism talk. https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/30/us/black-privilege/index.html

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I consider the Pew research Centre neutral. (NON-partisan) They report polls and the polls you are showing me tell me 50% Blacks are pessimistic concerning whether they will ever have equal rights even though we have come a long way since Martin Luther King and others.. And of course they feel slavery has affected the position of Black people today and that our country hasn't gone far enough. The reasons they feel this way is not because of systemic racism, if it were so we would never have elected a Black president (for which i voted for) , but rather because as a result of slavery they were uneducated and underdeveloped. We have spent trillions on education, welfare, and priority business opportunities and giving preferences to minorities with program after program. It takes time and people, no matter what color have to take responsibility for themselves and work within the confines of society norms. The Irish, the Italians and other groups did it and strong family ties and sacrifices by our parents made it possible for us. While many Blacks have made better lives for themselves and their family a large percentage of Blacks have not and are still underdeveloped. Family units and culture have a lot to do with this as there are too many Black children growing up without fathers and too many single mothers with many children from different husbands. Perhaps they blame the whites and i have empathy for that but sooner or later you have to realize that you are responsible for yourself and say no to drugs, crime, and feeling sorry for your past and work hard to break free and make a new future. The Pew Centre says the great majority of Blacks say its extremely important to identify as a Black. Though i am Italian i identify as just an American. I don't look at ethnicity as central to my identity. It takes time but as long as you identify more strongly with a race as central to your identity you will find it difficult to fit in to society as a whole. The majority of whites are simply not racists.

Frankly, i think your analogy is a bit extreme. We are talking about some people being offended not about Discussions are fine but this here in the US is not discussions. Even many Blacks object to what is going on. Well, it seems to me this whole issue is about "cancel culture" . The monuments and statues are part of our historical culture and there is a clear movement to cancel them.

Here is a YouTube video by a black man that i believe is worth watching about this whole racism issue. Worth watching to the end.

Being hoodwinked is always a possibility. 🙂 To me it is not a political thingy but rather personal experience. I do see such a media bias on both sides however 90 percent of mainstream media is slanted to only report the left side of things. My personal experience with people show the majority clearly does not oppose the statues but as i said it should be left up to the consensus of each community in which they reside and done peacefully. There is nothing to stop the majority voting out statues and monuments. What we have now is an agitated minority trying to push their agenda on the majority. Sure it has been said before in times past with no change but that is because most people are not offended. When most are, then vote it down. I have no problem with that . Until then 'cancel culture' and destruction of property will get us no where except further division. I might have a different view if i were a black man. But at the present i don't see color and would hope many of those of different color, creed, etc will get past such distinctions. Do you have a problem with if you are in a minority voice and don't get your way? 🙂 Who said the world was always fair? What is fair? If we are going to be a democratic republic, we must listen but we can't allow a vocal minority to dictate over such a matter or you will upset the majority and have even worse a situation. Do you think we need a civil war over such a matter? People will always be offended if things don't go their way and we have agreed that we are a democracy of sorts. (Actually a Republic) PS Did you listen to the Obama 1 minute video on "cancel culture"?