October's Autumn

Campolo's being conservative was a mistaken view that I acquired when I first came to the board. It wasn't corrected for me until this post (thanks Darby). I researched him after this thread and realized that his being called conservative by liberals is a mistake. He is a lot more conservative and literal than most liberals, so from that point of view he's "conservative." But no, I wouldn't call him conservative now that I know better. I'd just call him Christian. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> After I posted I saw the correction. Yes, conservative compared to liberals but liberal compared to conservatives. That is why I opted for moderate. I originally wrote "progresssive moderate" but I'm not sure how progressive he is in the sense of still growin in belief or if he is pretty staid in his beliefs. As far as his actions go he is definately progressive, his story about the prostitutes is a good example. He is approaching 70 and I think after he turned 50ish he decided he really didn't care what people thought about him which is why he felt comfortable with "hiring" the prostitutes. Of course, he didn't hide it. He tells the story and even wrote about it. That lends to the fact that he is above board with it. I can just imagine what the Right would do to twist the story were he a politician. (I'm currently reading Al Franken's book Lies and the Lying Liars who tell them: a Fair and Balanced Look at the Right I will never think I'm being paranoid the next time I think a politian or the media is lying!

I also find it hard to do. I don't think it is entirely a bad thing so long as we don't get set in our ways. I have found at different times in life I needed God in a certain way. After getting through whatever struggle that was then my view of God could change and be more open. Make sense? Thankfully, God is very patient!

Wow, Flow! Thanks. You just helped me put together two ideas I'd previously held separately. I'd never connected the creating tomorrow on our own and with our progeny with my views on violence. I had a more simplistic (?) view simply that violence was wrong. Never really *why* in the sense that you describe it.

This is also Jewish teaching. The focus is not on the hereafter but on NOW. Salvation is about NOW. THe whole Kingdom of Heaven is at hand is about NOW.

Everyone once in a while I will hear about JW theology and realize they have a better understanding of the bible than many Christians. Since we were just discussing Tony Campolo, this is (or at least was) his personal belief. I think the term used is "soul sleep." I personally believe that if their is any kind of afterlife that it will come through a resurrection. It is certainly supported by the bible. I don't believe the soul is a separate thing from the body. It is more of a gut feeling belief since I really have no way of knowing.

I took a class with him. He doesn't have a conservative bone in his body He is actually a moderate. It was from him I learned that people were actually gay. Previous to that I was under the impression that people had sexual encounters with members of the same sex like a one night stand. He is also in favor of *most* gay rights. At the time I went to college he was not in favor of gay marriage but his wife is and so are many of his family members. He is very open on the fact (or was) that it is his own personal belief and not necessarily right. I don't know where he stands now. I personally have faith that he will come around to seeing what is right.

I have 2 "born again" sisters, not to mention parents, last living grandparent, and countless friends from college! I rarely discuss religion or politics with my family (except my younger sister). I have better luck with college friends because, well, we went to the same college and they are more moderate than conservative. I find it better to focus on what we have in common as far as other things. For example, the fact that we are all creators. My mother sews and does embroidery, my oldest sister is a knitter, the next is a quilter, I sew, my younger sister sews, too.

I feel your frustration. When I get extrememly frustrated I focus on how recently women gained the right to vote, how recently the First (?) Civil Rights movement happened. In the end, the right to marry, be openly affectionate, etc. will be gained. I have the advantage of going to a church where the pastor participated in sit ins, boycotts, etc. I take courage from seeing someone who, in the light of history, isn't *that* much older than me and how much change he has seen in his life time. I know we will see the same. Some day we will be the ones telling the young people about the fight for the Civil Rights for the GLBT community!

Two excerpts from the sermon: "... retail merchants have been greeting customers with 'Happy Holidays' instead of 'Merry Christmas.' Could it be tha retailers are more sensitive to our increasingly multicutluaral and multireligious society than some Christians who have grown accustomed to being the dominant faith?" and here he actually quotes a conservative Pastor who published in the local paper "'Merry Christmas' is a gretting specificaly meant to celebrate our Christian belief that God was present in Jesus Christ. 'Happy Holidays' is a far more appropriate greeting for retail merchants who [are] more concerned with profits and fourth quarter earning than they are in promiting any specific religon, and there's nothing wrong with that."

I'll take another look...

I'm not big on Unity. I don't really feel a need to align myself with George Bush who apparently considers himself a Christian (although, in all fairness, that might just be for political reasons). In fact I distance myself completely from him. I see nothing Christlike or Godly in him. Of course, I don't know him personally. I just know what I see of his actions. Perhaps in real life he is a really nice guy... That has a lot to do with why I am squeamish about using the term "Christian" for myself.

Your comments about the Incarnation are the same thoughts that I had when I started to rethink the Incarnation and the Trinity. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It is tricky to do. Taking an old concept at looking at it a new light. Of course you have to make sure those you are talking to know what *you* mean by the old concept. I think that is why sometimes we simply come up with new words!

Sorry, can't give you the last. Perhaps the "what unites is the person of Jesus." Not all Christians take commune or believe in baptism. In fact, baptism of today is not much like baptism of Jesus. And the Nicene Creed? Nope.

Just to clairfy: I wasn't posting about my own beliefs necessarily but rather that I know people who are Christians who wouldn't agree with what was stated.

Yup. That was one of the first things I learned right before I started college. I couldn't believe I had never heard it before! It probably started me on the path to wanting to learn Greek. I felt robbed of not being given that information sooner!

I totally agree and yet, isn't it ironic that Christianity accuses Judaism of being legalistic? Yes! And it drives me nutty the way people talk about "the God of the OT." They miss so much of God! Definately. My experience is limited to a liberal Conservative congregation and the Jewish people I've known. I've heard knew ideas about adding something for Lent (like exercising) rather than taking something away. That I might be able to get into. Excellent point. I'm afraid I'd be one of the worst adherents. That is why I tend toward moderation. Some people find it quite freeing to give something up for Lent (or add something). For me it would a negative. Again, just my personality. I have no problems giving up things. I didn't eat red meat for years. I tried to be a vegetarian but wasn't getting enough protein in my system -- tofu and I don't get along. For my own health I started eating red meat again -- there is a specific reason why I do but I'm afraid it would be TMI. I also have food allergies and can only eat certain dairy products and small amount of egg (usually cooked in another food). So I lose some alternative ways of getting protein. I'm off topic, here. But your comment on lobster, shrimp, etc. sent my brain in a different direction.

Yup. Okay here goes: Have to take that one off the list. This one too. Not sure about this, would need more info on the "just a state of separation." sorry, no again. Well, not unless we think all Christians are Unitarians, no. Christianity is really polytheisitic no matter what Christians will tell you. They limit their gods to three but it is still polytheistic. Yup. Well, in my experience true for moderates and liberals but not so much true for Conservatives and Fundamentalists. They may claim belief but more often actions don't match stated belief. Again, my experience. Yeah, I guess... would need more though. Yes and no. My idea of grace is about accepting humanity. Where as a more traditional person would say it is about being saved.

I like this. This is better than what *I* was seeing in the God-centered versus self-centered. This is the hard part. Of course good stuff is rarely easy.

Well said. My only way of replying to this is that I found accepting myself as human and that God says I'm good. I'm still working on embracing my humanity. If you read my posts on the "Other faith Traditions" about Judaism that has a lot to do with where I'm trying to go. It is an on going struggle as I grew up with similar steady doses as you did. I wonder if there is a detoxification for all that? I know some people detox their bodies. Is there a spiritual enema?

I'm not sure from a psychological stand point but I think it may be the focus on Protestantism (sp?) on grace rather than works. I'm sure there is something deeper, though. Perhaps because practice is so much harder?

Okay, now I've read the post since you directed me! The basic answer to your question is No! LOL I don't observe Lent. I didn't grow up in a liturgical church and still miss the point (even though I know some really like it). I did joke that between THanksgiving and Christmas I was doing Lent early because I had sworn off desserts in an attempt not to gain weight that so often plagues Americans over the holidays. It didn't last for very long but I did practice moderation so the weight gain thing isn't an issue. I find if I restrict myself on something that I'm more likely to be obsessed with it. So I'm better doing most things in moderation and life stays balanced. As we discussed on the other thread I also have problems with the idea of humans being evil, orignial sin, etc. I prefer the Jewish take on it. I prefer to embrace my humanity rather than trying to subdue it. I think it is far more effective (at least for me) and pulls me away from legalism. That may not work for everyone but when I went in the opposite direction it was very damaging emotionally and physically.

I don't know if you've read the entire thread about "Renunciation and Discipline" but I said this on the first page: I'm hoping the thread can switch back to discussing this basic idea, as it is one that moves me deeply, as it seems to do to you. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I hadn't read the whole thread. I have problem reading long posts on a screen, not sure why. Thanks for highlighting for me! Yes, it again goes back to bringing up issues that come from the kind of Christianity I was raised in, mixed with my own personality. I think that is why I find so much comfort in Judaism. It is so different from my upbringing it brought validation to my experience as a child, teenager, and young adult. I found myself feeling much more comfortable with God because God is described so differently in Judaism. I took a huge emotional sigh of relief when I discovered God through Judaism. Some of my favorite Jewish books: To Life!; Basic Judaism, and Becoming a Jew. There is one more but I can't find it on my shelf. I seriously considered converting to Judaism and probably would have had I not found the UCC. Who knows, I still might if I were to find the right Synagogue -- I've visited two. I guess the synagogues aren't too great around here. (That is coming from a teacher friend who is Jewish, another teacher friend who is Jewish travels some distance to go to synagogue).

I can feel the agony of my childhood when I read this. I don't like the idea of forgetting myself. Can you explain it more to me? I'm bringing in baggage and want to see if I can get around it. Thanks

THanks Altheia for doing the footwork on this one. Like I said I'd heard the idea before but never checked up on it! I had actually forgotten about it until recently and then it came up again today. Speaking of doctrination, I remember thinking as a kid that it was a sin to make a mistake in math. This came from the idea that in order to be sinless you had to be perfect! YIKES! That could be a few months worth of therapy right there!

I am what Jews call a Gentile with a Jewish heart. I found refuge in Judaism when I could find no common ground with the Christianity I knew. I still find Judaism to be a place of solace. I like Kushner's To Life! I've also read several other great books about God and Judaism which have shaped my theology. One of things I like in Judaism (Conservative which really isn't conservative and Reform) is that they understand worship in a different way than Christianity. For example, studying is considered worship. Using the gifts God has given us is worship. Taking care of others (like elderly or severely disabled or other people who are vulnerable) is also worship. Judaism also has a much higher view of humanity than does traditional Christianity. There is a lot less talk about sin and falleness and more about accepting our humanity and embracing it. I really got to know Jesus better when I went to Israel and then started attending synagogue about 6 months later. I see Jesus as a Jewish man, not a Christian or founder of Christianity. I really don't believe he ever intended to start a new religion. Like many of us here I think his real intent was to take the powerful people of his time back to what God wanted for us. To love God with all of our heart, mind, and soul and to love our neighbor as ourself.