October's Autumn

http://www.claremontucc.org They telecast their Sunday Morning Service/Sermon on local delay. I think you can also order or download, too.

While the theoretical is interesting I still stand by my statement that physics, while sometimes the effects are devastating, are not evil. Actions of human intention can be.

I was looking at the one I picked up for my husband at church. I find the little one pagers to often be trite. I'm not sure that the cocept of a devotional fits in with people who recognize human needed as being more complicated than simple answers and a prooftexted piece of scripture. Although I would certainly be interested in knowing if one exists or could be made, I'm not closed to the idea, just skeptical.

THanks!

We had a Matrix thread going in the Cafe for awhile. Check it out. And welcome aboard. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I will, and thanks!

Because it involves a willful and deliberate action (or lack of action) that is in direct opposition to a holy God (and in many cases our fellow humans) My .02 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That and human action against human has the intention of hurting or overpowering that person. The tsunami lacks will or ability, it is physics.

That little part at that "Last Supper" where Jesus dips his bread with Judas?(Matthew 26:20) Very significant (put this under the heading of the things they didn't teach you in Sunday School) THere is significant meaning to sharing a meal with someone in the Middle East, and the dipping of the bread is also signficant as the person becomes a brother, if you will, for life. Essentially Jesus is forgiving Judas for what he is about to do. I'm afraid that is the best I can explain it, but Judas isn't the bad guy. It has been 10 years!

Considering Jesus was a feminist, I'd have to say: yes.

Crucifixions were a dime a dozen at that time in history. I don't know the numbers but many, many people were killed by that method (or the more horrific method of impaling).

I think we can all agree that outlawing partial birth abortions is a reasonable measure and not "extreme". Still, many in Congress voted against the ban, supposedly for the reason you stated. They're afraid that when people start examining the issue with more scrutiny, and go beyond the rhetoric, the "right to choose" argument will start to evaporate. I say put all the arguments on the table, and let the chips fall where they may. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There is no such thing as a "partial birth abortion." It is a lie made up by those who don't know what they are talking about. The procedure is a dialation and extraction which is only used in extreme cases when a normal abortion procedure would put the woman's life at risk. Don't believe the rhetoric of the right wing politians.

When I was in high school I took a semester of Spanish. (I'm terrible at it, but that is for a different forum!) My teacher said we had to put the "emphasis on the right syllable" for it to sound right. If you take that phrase and switch the emphasis on "emphasis" and "syllable" you'll better understand what it means. I think that people, when interepreting scripture often put the emphasis in the wrong place. In this case what would amaze people is not that Jesus talked about lusting in their heart but that he was creating a more egalitarian society that prohibited men from objectifying women. If you are a woman and have had a guy look at you "like that." You know what I mean. Jesus' statements on divorce are also similar. We see them as commandments against divorce when in fact they were protections for women who's husbands could easily divorce them and leave them destitute (and apparently often had to turn to prostitution for a means of survival).

I agree. When people claim that Bush is pro-life I have to laugh. He is pro-fetus he doesn't give a damn after you are born!

The problem with the abortion debate is that the wrong questions are being asked. The question we should be asking is what can we do to eliminate the need for abortion? Even if abortion became illegal it would still happen (as it has since the beginning of time). I think that an unwanted pregnancy is a no-win situation. From what I can gather women (I use the term loosely because in some cases they are under the age of 15) who are forced to take a pregnancy to full term and deliver a baby and either take care of it or place it for adoption have many issues of guilt as do women who terminate a pregnancy. The secret is to prevent unwanted pregnancies. We should be headed in that direction. Then the only abortions that would be needed would be for ones where the pregnancy was not viable (ie tubal or other instances where the mother and fetus will both (all) die if it not terminated. Side note: The problem with stopping abortion after the first trimester except in case of rape or incest is how do you determine that it was a rape or incest? I guess incest could be done through DNA testing, but rape is more tricky as there is not always the physical trauma of force.

I'm more Unitarian in my beliefs... I'm not quite sure what to do with "Christ" I'm more comfortable with Jesus... I don't take communion... I do believe Jesus has teachings (which tie into teaching from the Hebrew Bible) which those who call themselves Christians are supposed to follow, specifically: Love God and love your neighbor.

I went to a Conservative (which is actually liberal) Synagogue for several years. If only I'd been born Jewish...

Tony is an interesting man. I took Sociology of the Family with him years ago. FYI his wife is in favor of gay marriage. Tony was one of the first steps I had in leaving fundamentalist-ish Christiainty. He also opened the door to my understanding of what it is to be gay (prior to his class I understood that people who had sex with others of hte same sex were just having doing it in the same way two strangers would have sex, not that homosexuality was an orientation). I'm surprised he is still espousing an anti-gay marriage stance. I also think he is naive when it comes to his views on divorce. It should be harder to have children, not get married or divorced. Children do not do well in a family where their parents are miserably married. I have an acquaintance who did not believe in marriage until her parents finally divorced when she was in college. If that was marriage she wanted nothing to do with it. It wasn't until they finally admitted their relationship was bad and ended it she was able to bring her self to even consider getting married. (Last I heard, she was engaged!) What is "attacking" heterosexual marriages is the fact that humans are doing it. Divorce is just a sign that some people are realizing that their relationship is sick and they need to get out. It is kind of like dying, really. Part of the cycle of life.

Believe it or not I wrote my Master's thesis on this topic, well, I touched on it, anyhow. My basic argument was against the existence of Satan. I ended up concluding one could believe in Satan if they chose to but previous to that I made the argument that there really isn't a need for Satan. As far as evil goes: I first separated out true evil from things we think are evil. For example: Many see the Tsunami as evil, it is not, it is awful, true, but not evil. Earthquakes, death, disease, not evil, just part of living. What true evil is is what humans do to each other and to the world. Think rape, murder, etc. But also think cuts, put downs -- how we treat each other. Wow I just turned a 50 page paper into 3 small paragraphs!

I come from a similar background. I ended up in Seminary which helped a great deal! Biblical study doesn't have to be that formal but I personally needed it because I was tired of everyone telling me all the things the bible said (and contradicting each other) and needed to find out for myself. Even though I didn't find all the answers (probably found more questions) I learned enough to overcome the intellectual issues of coming from a fundamentalist - ish background. I still struggle with the emotional ones, which is why I'm here. My favorite movie is The Matrix. You are at the point where you've chosen to take the pill where you leave the Matrix rather than stay in it. Being out of the Matrix isn't as pretty as being in it, but at least it is honest!

35, female, married, just finished my teaching credential, hoping to *soon* be employed as a contract teacher (have been subbing forever!) Live in the Inland Empire in Southern California. Interests? Reading, internet forums, made my first quilt this summer (and possibly last!) and am trying to learn to knit, but not very actively.

*raises hand* I've been here for 5 years now.

I want one along the lines of "Straight person for Gay Marriage"

I've debated myself with this issue. When I was baptized I was 14-16 years old. I was dunked in a tank (of thankfully warm water) in a very conservative church. So now that I go to progressive liberal church there would be something to getting baptized because there has definately been a conversion of faith. This is my best reason for being baptized again. Reasons not to? Because it has lost much of its biblical meaning in modern churches. Everything from baptizing infants who don't have a say in the matter to having simply lost its meaning (or has it changed its meaning?) as a sign of repentence. I'm not big on tradition for tradition's sake. I think things that have lost meaning should be done away with.