flowperson

I visited an exibition in Santa Monica CA today and was moved to tears several times. This artist has an integrated vision of representing origins of intelligent life, and he has done an excellent and moving job. While the exhibition itself has features of integration of sound and images that photographs can only partially display, the websiite below will give you a sampling of the subject matter. But by all means if you are going to be in the Los Angeles area soon, do yourself and your loved ones a favor and see this marvelous thing. It's right next to the Santa Monica Pier on the north side. You can't miss it. http://www.ashesandsnow.org flow....

I beat you by three days. Happy birthday des, and ENJOY YOURSELF !! flow....

Ahhh Yes ! And that's precisely why he is on a presidential tour of south Asia bringing the promises of freedom and democracy to the masses there this week. Bet his numbers will be up next week ! flow....

I agree with the statements re: the Gospel of John. Research has shown that it presents the more mystical portions of the Jesus stories, and is written from the viewpoint that is probably most closely related to Jewish beliefs of the time as regards the life of Jesus, the incarnation of G-d, and fulfillment of the OT prophecies regarding all this. Is it any wonder that Progressives identify most closely with this cannon Gospel ? flow....

MOW I like your analogy. Today adversarial relations are played out on the public stage with the corporate media serving as the zebras (referees ) ostensibly there to separate the combatants ( like the guys in black on Jerry Springer ) when the sweaty clinches gety too lengthy or unmanageable. It brings to mind an old Chicago joke that is still one of my favorites. " What do you call 1,000 lawyers chained together at the bottom of the Chicago River ? A good start ! " With today's news of CBS suing Howard Stern due to his success on Sirius, we have another episode in the Megastruggle, IMO. flow....

Hi everybody ! I'm taking a few days off near the ocean. Very restful ! The one movie that stuck me deeply as an accurate temporal exposition of the life of Jesus was, believe it or not, Ridley Scott's film, Blade Runner. Now on the face of it you have just another Sci-Fi conglomeration of images and scenes that suppose the ensuing chaotic environment in Los Angeles upon the full implementation and exploitation of the genetic manipulation of living organisms. But this is the very era that we are all entering today whether we want to or not. Of course the fundies do not, and I believe that this deep-seated fear of the other may be at the root of all the paranoia and xenophobia out there these days when it comes to abortion law and stem cell research. If you go to the end of the film and play the death speech of the replicant played by Rutger Hauer you get the full benefit of what I'm driving at. The speech is also replete with crucifiction symbolism. Because of my background being involved with the beginnings of genetic research at a major university, I actually found this film to be a cogent approach as to how society might deal with a new variety of the human species emerging in their midst. And, I found new aspects within my understandings concerning belief in the life of Jesus when this entirely different sort of being appeared among us. The film is from the 80's and may prove to be one of the most prophetic ever made. flow....

The Gate and Gateway metaphor are suitable images to render when examining the meaning of the gospel passages that put usage of these symbols into the words of Jesus. However, I believe that we are looking at a much broader range of understandings in the usage of these symbols. It should be remembered that the very first people of G-d, specifically chosen by Him/Her to live G-d's purpose in the world were the Hebrews, which comes from the Chaldean root "hibaru". The original interpretation of the root means roughly "those who cross over". Now again we are bumping up against words and meanings that imply transition from one reality to another. But we should never either forget that the first Hebrews were nomads and that the first tabernacle in which G-d communicated His/Her wishes to them was essentially a large compartmentalized tent. They were not city or village people, and only later did they establish towns and villages presumably with walls and gates. The earliest sacred meanings attached to gates and walls were in the land of Shinar (biblical), Sumer (archaeological), Iraq (contemporary). The gate posts were especially important and almost always had votive images of the G-ds buried under them as did the walls, both structural and surrounding. The significance of this sacredness points to the delineation noted above in a recognition of the inside from the outside. Moreover, walls and gates imposed human-made order upon the natural world. By building boundaries and openings in them for passage they were emulating activities carried out by the G-ds at the very beginnings, since most creation myths always involved stories that emphasized the culture's original creation of order out of disorder, and the establishment of timelines that enabled continuance of the people out of the primordial chaos. Ciphering and counting was invented at gateways and trade practices were carried out there with strangers from the outside world. Writing evolved from these activities so that the governing establishment in city states could record activities at the gates and regulate them to their and the populace's general benefit. Many of the oldest cuneiform tablets discovered in excavations of gateway areas turn up troves of clay tablets recording official activities of some kind. It is interesting to speculate that perhaps the Hebrews adopted a portion of these customs and beliefs during their diaspora in Babylon around 600 bce and carried them back to Palestine where they subsequently built more of their own cities with walls and gates. But my recollection is that the Cannanites were using the same construction format in the land prior to the Hebrews. Prior to the Sumerians and their city states there were people in the same land known as the Ubaidians. Their lifestyle was not as highly organized as the Sumerians and not much appears about their works in the archaeological record, although votive figures attributed to their civilization have been found and usually depict serpent-appearing humanoid figures with conical hats and posed with their arms folded across their chests. This takes the record in the region back to about 6,000 bce. There are others who see gateway significance in the dolmen structures of the neolithic period in central and northern Europe. It appears that they were a general feature of the sacred sites of the Celts and that ceremonies that required the people to pass through or under them were part of their sacred rites. Stonehenge is the most prominent of extant sites with preserved dolmens. It is also interesting to note that such standing stone arrangement also define specific boundaries separating the inside from the outside of sacred areas, and that also provide gateway areas for passing through the sites. Now it is interesting that Jesus denigrated those who used gateways before Him as "theives and bandits". It seems an uncharacteristically judgemental saying for him to have uttered. It would be interesting to know if the Jesus Seminar judged it to be authentic or not. One should also rent a copy of the film Stargate and familiarize themselves with some contemporary interpretations for the usage of these most ancient structurial symbols. flow....

Ummm, about the 10,000 years thing. It was, I believe Bishop Ussher of Northern Ireland who issued a decree in the dark ages sometime that the world was created by G-d in 4,004 bc. At least that's what I remember. He did some esoteric calculating using older translations of the Bible. I don't think that Ussher was the guy who created Green Stripe Scotch though, but I could be wrong about that. This is probable due to the fact that the Jews celebrate their founding yearly and it is around 3,700 bc if I recollect, and Chinese year count is at about the same level. The fundies likely picked up on all this as a "proof" that the world is not really that old, and that fossils, carbon dating, etc., are really bogus contrivances used by hypocrites and apostates to negate the true story of creation. But look at it this way, if the 6,000 total year count is close to true, then we've got 4,000 years left yet to... party on dudes and dudettes !! Whoohooo !! flow....

JB Having been there a couple of times myself, although not always involving church matters but rather family matters, I can tell you that the prime directive of evil is to separate those who care about and love each other, no matter what that process may involve or what the cost may be to those involved. This is the reason that "live", which involves loving and caring, is "evil" spelled backwards. It's all as simple to understand as that. flow....

TMS Thank you...Thank You...Thank You...Thank You.... !!!! flow....

Forrest Also go to the books thread below and check out the recs there. I just started a book on sufi mysticism recommended by mystictrek and it's terrific. I don't believe that you can go very far wrong reading what the TCPC'rs suggest there. And don't worry about being harsh and offending anyone. We're all pretty ordinary people here and not elitist as far as I can tell. Thick skin is automatically inherited by all ordinary people. But I believe that we all have in common the burning desire to discover G-d and the works of his/her hands, and it's all about love. Best wishes on your journey ! flow....

Thanks guys. I guess I understood the concept on other levels, but I'd just not heard or read the word before, and if I did I forgot where or when. I for one would lean towards the doing of works as opposed to the telling and measuring of works. I'm just too practical I guess. However, I really groove on the concept of the manipulation of body parts by mechanical devices. I believe that some massage parlors here in sin city may have the latest models. flow....

Forrest: First of all, welcome to the board ! Second, I'm not so sure that you are seeing the trees clearly (couldn't resist that one ). Seriously though, I would have to agree with OA on this. Jesus wasn't seeking mass appeal, He was planting seeds for something that has yet to be fully discovered and grow to fullness. Progressive are dedicated to seeking that fullness. It is a work in progress. If progressives were to use the methods and values of the right in trying to "sell" our program to average Joes and Janes in the wider world, then we would be lowering our standards and values of expression of our principles to theirs. Is this what you really want ? Or do you want Joe and Jane to seek the fullness of Christ's teachings along with us. It is a path of exploration and discovery, and you logically cannot teach discovered things until they are found. The joy and novelty is in the seeking and not in developing contrived answers as has been done all too often in the past by those on the right. flow....

OA "orthopraxy" ? Please translate for those of us who are unfamiliar with the term. Is it some kind of weird bone specialist or something ? flow....

I am a bit burned out and am finding I don't feel I have much to contribute right now. I still read the board everyday though. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> AR Miss You !!! Get unburned and come back when you're ready, not before. Dr. flow....

MT Applause !!! Applause !!! flow....

Well, your initial post is just a bit overwhelming. But it really doesn't say many things that haven't been said here and elsewhere about the pickle we are now finding ourselves to be in throughout most of the world. If we had a great time machine we could all go back and try to "correct" some of the "mistakes" made in the industrializing and corporatization of the world. But would even that solve anything? We are all blessed with exactly the situations that we are in; and, yes, it is the result of playing off one dualistic concept of human development against another for at least the past 150 years or so in the hope that "the rising tide would raise all boats". That's happened to an extent, but now it is turning into a rampant separaton of the haves from the have nots. It is really too bad that the leading nations can say the words but cannot do the things it takes to begin modifying our collective national behaviors towards destructive materialism. I and millions of others are waiting for some signs that our hopes and prayers may result in real actions by those who have the power to change realities. But in lieu of that, all that we can do is talk about it all in places like this and hope that it will do some good some day. Welcome to the board. flow....

MT Of course you are right, but back in the day I had the energy and time to speak out on such things. Today I have neither and cannot, even though I've tried to keep fairly current on the issues. Speaking one's truth to power has it's aphrodesiac benefits and its deadly backlash consequences. I've tried to cope with both and have recovered to a fairly middling life these days. My major priorities these days are to work my job (50) hrs a week, look after the affairs of parents who are both about 90, and try to pass on a little of what I know here on this board from time to time. But this year there don't seem to be many of the old gang around to kibitz with anymore. Hmmmmmm. Someone trying to tell us something ? Been there before and it always passes. Thanks for the thoughts. flow....

Thanks for the good words, but when one passes the Rubicon of 60 by a few years, you realize that, especially these days, life is for the young and irresponsible. They're the only ones of us able to actively live out the sage advice of James Brown, "Git down ! Git back up ! Kiss yo'self !" Maybe the TV marketers have finally gotten to me, except that there are days when I'm in my twenties between my ears, until my body screams at me that I'm really being a dumb A--. Then I put on my "steal your face" or "dancing bears" hat and go to work and everything seems ok. That doesn't qualify as lying to oneself does it ? Thanks again C ! flow....

LOL Soma, But, of course that begs the question of what it means when their heads tip to the left; or, better yet, wiggle in a circular motion on their highly flexible necks ? flow...

I've known Mormons from time to time in my life and have found them to be generally open and accepting of others on a personal level. They are grounded in an inspiring belief in the value of family, work, responsibility for the welfare of others, and are not uppity about their accomplishmnents. They're probably better Christians, as a group dynamic, in their behavior than most other denominations, at least insofar to their adherence to the teachings of Jesus. Their foundational culture underlies the somewhat brief history of the city and valley that I now call home, and I can freely state that the people here are more open, friendly, non-judgemental, and tolerant than anywhere else I've spent any significant time during my life. Yes, some strange beliefs as far as some of us wacky liberal mainliners may think, but full brothers and sisters in the group of believers nonetheless. I'd rather ride on their bus than Jerry Falwell's on a long trip to anywhere. My reason for posting this article, which I believe delineates better than most things I've read, is just what the burgeoning discoveries of science and their appplication to our everyday lives is doing to traditional beliefs all over the map, and just not to Mormonism. It's something I recognized and realized about twenty years ago, and, as stated earlier, I believe will be the primal theme of the 21st century. Thanks for your interest. flow....

Applause !! Applause !! flow...

I found this today on the LA Times web site, and I believe that it points out the sort of basic cultural restructuring we will increasingly experience in the 21st century. It's probably going to be a rough ride, especially for those in control of societal institutions that tend to ignore the obvious in order to preserve and protect their presumed cultural dominance. flow.... http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-mo...-home-headlines

JB Silence, persistence, consistency, openness, reading the ideas of others, and deep-emotionally-connected thought and reflection. Practice these and it will all come to you my friend. peace to you...flow....

Sad to say, it seems that if the radical right of Christianity and other religions cannot have the future be exactly what they want it to be, they are perfectly willing to kill others and support the general destruction of life on earth instead, if need be. They would rather choose death than life, which is of course the antithesis of the primary wishes of G-d. What a mess !! flow....