flowperson

I would agree with your observations, luthitarian, to the extent that fatherman's observations apply. Even in an environment of rapidly changing beliefs, such as we are all experiencing these days, the traditional forms of belief need to be respected and supported. To say that they are dead is a subjective evaluation based upon a certain perspective. This all cannot be viewed as fixed events in time, but must be evaluated as a process in time that unfolds at the core of human culture. It is organic and spiritual in nature and not material. Many of us see and, to an extent, understand the rapid changes that we are all caught up in and cannot escape, but others cannot. While certain sets of beliefs will render some unable to cope and survive in the futures that are being created around them, we hope that enough belief forms will adapt and change so that a future may be created that is as supportive as it may be for differing belief systems. Unless I am greatly mistaken, that is the real purpose of this progressive movement. Of course these are the sorts of cultural war games that we see each day in the news, such as the party in power's reliance upon demonization techniques to mollify its voting base in order to maintain power and control over society in certain ways. These sorts of activities are the really corrupting and destructive forces of contemporary culture in the US, IMO. To openly and legally restrict an individual's or group of individual's rights to "being" simply because they are what and who they are, and not because of their individual choices, is an open and blatant offense against life, and all of us in the end, become increasingly threatened by these activities. Conflict is never pretty or fruitful. It only diminishes life force. I believe that this was the core teaching that Jesus gave us, and what leads to the eventual triumphs we have seen this century in the campaigns led by King, Ghandi, et al. Passive and peaceful resistance to conflict and confrontation were oddly enough summed up by Mayor Nagin of New Orleans when he recently won reelection. " First they laugh at you. Then they ignore you. Then they fight you. Then they lose!" The pace of technological and scientific change is only going to quicken and render more and more traditional beliefs irrational and inapplicable to future human life IMO. That's what this is all about. We need to start building the right sort of busses to hold enough believers so that we can ride into the future together to experience the life that awaits us all. flow....

John : Thanks for this post. I studied a lot of this about fifteen years ago at a very well stocked library at a Hebrew Institution of higher learning in the midwest. At about the same time I studied some very old books and folios dating to and concerning the golden age of alchemy in Europe, from about 1300-1600 ad, or up until about the time that Newton et al began to revolutionize scientific studies and research practices. Newton, by the way had a wide knowledge and grounding in alchemical theory and practice, which has its roots in ancient India and China. The Sefirot which was not mentioned in the above article, consisted of ten emanations, which are understood through powerful symbolic representations. The Sefirot represented stages or levels of power in the creation processes that flowed from the EinSof, at least that's how I remember it. This is all very similar to meditations that were triggered through symbolic representations and the study and interpretation of them in the processes of alchemy. One thing symbolically leads to another, and the final result is creation ab nihilo, creation from nothing. Kabbalism seemed to arise in Spain in the middle ages, and it's founding father, so to speak, was supposedly Moses DeLeon, Moses of the lion. Many believe that this is a veiled reference to activities at Alhambra and the Court and Fountain of the Red Lions which dates to Islamic times prior to 1200 ad . I have mentioned elsewhere here that much of the mathematical and technical knowledge of ancient civilizations was preserved and passed on through Islamic institutions in Africa, Spain, and the Middle East while Europe slumbered in the dark ages. What I'm driving at here is that it should be recognized that there are simlarities to mystical religious practices and forms of scientific blue-sky theorizing. The processes and formats have some basic similarities, and their purposes, the creation of new ideas and novel thought processes, seem to run in parallel directions and are driven by the study of symbols. I have also been very interested in the synchronicity of the facts that the Jews, the community where Kabbalism first arose in Spain, were evicted from Spain by the Church in 1492,;and, of course, that Christopher Columbus was dispatched by the Queen of Spain to "discover" new worlds in the same year. flow....

Isn't it fascinating how well G-d arranges certain "coincidences" ? Which reminds me of one of my favorite observations of the ongoing conflict between G-d and the "adversary" G-d is subtle and not malicious. The enemy is subtle and malicious. flow....

Chad: I'm sorry to hear of your trouble, but many have suffered for their beliefs and survived to live better lives in the future. Only you can decide what's best to preserve who and what you are, and no one else can give you those answers. It's very difficult to be negatively judged by someone who loves you and that you love, but even that can be overcome by finding the core of yourself and preserving it fiercely. If separating yourself from the pain is your only option after all your considerations, then I repeat, you must do whatever it will take to preserve yourself and who you are. Two books helped me through that process when I went through it twice, The Road Less Traveled, and People Of The Lie, both written by the Late M. Scott Peck. He was a very wise and loving person and a psychiatrist who believed in finding love and caring in the most difficult of situations. He espoused a very Christian approach to solving these sorts of situations. G-d go with you and enclose you in His/Her loving arms. flow....

Flow: Spong has done two word studies that he mentions in This Hebrew Lord and other works. He notes that the early Jewish authors describe God by the terms "ruach" and "nephesh". One means 'wind' and the other means 'breath'. The terms describe God in a very natural way. There was no science to aid in the writings. No biology or meteorology to explain further. Early writers had to go by their own meager observations. The highest level of explanation of God is found in 1 John toward the end of the bible. God is revealed as 'Love'. "Sh/he who abides in love abides in God and God in her". There is a higher revelation of God not found in the bible: God is Unconditional Love! Could it be that no amount or intensity of study of the bible would ever result in the discovery that God is Unconditional Love? To me it is obvious that the bible may be somewhat inspiring but may be limited in it's ability to understand modern contemporary terminology of God. My point is that the Love of God is not simply the bible but that the Love of God is greater than the bible. The bible is useful but limited by it's time frame. This observation may be helpful and necessary to learn to love all of God's creatures across the racial and gender gaps and to love and accept all the untouchables in our multi- cultural society. Do you agree? Just curious, Dave <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I greatly respect Spong's work, but it is his method that might not yield true images of what the writers of the myths in the bible were driving at. When one traces the roots of bible words and phrases in the KJV back to the Chaldean and Greek roots in a Strong's Concordance, one finds some interesting word and concept trails to follow. For Instance, tracing the word "G-d" in the Chaldean Dictionary yields the prevalence of the concepts of "roll", "post", "oak", and others, but prevalently these concepts. Assuredly these are OT word trails and we may only speculate as to what the writers were driving at. I agree with you though that the roots of most cultures worldwide land on the side of the creator G-d as the life-giver in the form of the "pneuma" or "breath". flow....

I did buy the book. But it's in my stack of unreads. Is yours higher than mine ? Also, perhaps the luthitarian could tell us if the Lutheran church might have been started by Luther Burbank, or did he build the first TV studio in Los Angeles ? Just wondering since we were talking about flowers. flow....

Welcome to our rebellious little band of theological misfits, at least that's what others probably say. But then, who care's what others may think ! Again, welcome ! flow....

Ahhh c'mon AR. You're just very curious about how the other side thinks...heh,heh,heh...or doesn't flow....

I always find it refreshing to Gnow Gnu things ! (sorry) flow....

I think of each individual as being a gateway between the inside and the outside of universal realities. So, in a sense, manifestations of the self in created works that we present to the world from the inside of ourselves is the fulfillment of G-d's purpose for all of us on earth. At least that's how I've experienced the creative process when I write serious things. The still small voice speaks to the inside of me, and it automatically becomes my duty and purpose in life to pass on the messages to the best of my ability to the outside world. Evil tries its mightiest to stop the process, but as long as I live I am bound to continue my calling to do these things. I'm quite sure that this is not the experience of most people, but it has been my reality for about twenty five years now. Our Muslim brothers and sisters have a term to describe this condition, "Abt Allah" , "Slave to G-d". But His/Her yoke is easy. Any thoughts ? flow....

Salaam, Peace, Love. flow....

Ahhhh yes, but having all that in an ordered life is usually transitory. Nature abhors stability such that you can have all of that, and then in the blink of an eye, you can lose what you have. I know, I've been there and back a couple of times, because creation of novelty demands sacrifice. There is no other way. But it's eventually over, you seek new pathways and you are redeemed somehow, and newness takes a place in your life. You and life continues on into the future in different ways. Not like it was, but satisfying and stable again in new ways. flow....

I have found that seeking and questioning brings about degrees of disorder. Knowing brings a sort of stability that decays over time due to the impact of intelligent questions and new answers. Rigid orthodoxy could be termed to be not natural under this definition which conforms with the basic operating patterns of complex natural systems. By the way, the gyre is the primary symbol for change in a system undergoing change into new stabilities. AR and Fatherman, IMO you are both on the side of the angels on this one. flow....

Dave: I have mentioned this technique elsewhere here on the boards sometime ago. I find that if I read the KJV and trace the root meanings of words or phrases I have questions about back to their Greek and Chaldean origins in a Strong's Concordance, I am much more able to derive a mental picture regarding the array of meanings that are possible and probable. It takes a long time to do it this way, but I haven't found a better way to improve my interpretive outlook on the scriptures in the bible. Hope it helps you on your quest. flow....

Davestelzer: This makes a lot more sense to me than most of the myths about Jesus that have been handed down to us over the centuries. But, I make this point knowing that myth making has been the essential ingredient in belief systyems for at least 10,000 years, and probably longer than that. What we have in the case of Jesus stories is a 2,000 year long disagreement between interpreters and orthodoxy about what may have happened and when. Welcome to the boards Dave ! flow....

Ahhh yes AR. Avoidance and evasion, the guideposts of the 21st century being. But then this is the essence of non-violent protest as taught to us by King, Ghandi, et al. You do not confront the really bad stuff until it's time. Kind of reminds me of an old Orson Wells wine commercial. The bad stuff ALWAYS wants to confront you to elicit an ill considered reaction, but one must not play its game. It must be forced to play your game. But then, I've always believed that life is not a game but a great story written by the author of history that unfolds itself to our understandings in the fullness of time.. Actually I've done a large amount of avoidance and evasion myself in ways I never imagined possible when young. I believe that it all stems from a sensitivity that one develops to an environment (physical, emotional, spiritual, and cultural) that constantly seeks to judge one's behavior and mete out unjust punishments whether they are deserved or not. I would refer you to my and fatherman's observations regarding the "indigo children". Could be that Jesus was the first and will be the last. Whether or not certain people really are different from what has come before, I believe that we can all agree that this is all happening everyday before our eyes for some great reason. I believe that this is a degree of what we all are experiencing these days. We've both got a lot of company it seems. But I can tell from how you think and what you say that underneath it all, you are a brilliant and worthwhile person. Maybe it won't get better, but hang in there anyway. It's the only choice we have as long as we're walking around and breathing. And I would continue to not watch the news too much, since it's likely part of the game and not the story IMO. flow....

Is anyone else as fascinated as I was with Pope Benedict's statement, at Auschwitz this week, that he didn't understand why G-d was silent while the Nazis disposed of a million and a half people at the death camp during WW II while implementing their industrialized version of "the final solution" ? I guess that I was a litttle surprised that this scholarly man of G-d and the leader of the largest religious movement on the planet somehow expected G-d ( or presumably some supernatural manifestation of the spirit ) to intervene and micromanage the affairs of humans when they decide to eliminate each other, even in such huge numbers. Do you believe that this observation was a simply a manifestation of this man's faith, or something that goes deeper ? Wouldn't you think that he would recognize the total defeat of armed Facism in 1945 to be an indication of G-d's will in this conflict. And wouldn't such a great leader recognize that humans are destined by G-d to clean out their own sandbox when they mess it up so badly so that we all learn the great lessons ? Any thoughts ? flow...

C'mon AR. Y'all ( my cousins from Mississippi are visiting this week) know that it's much more fun, and usually better for your health, to pretend than to deal with what may be real. I'm just conforming to the behavior of most of our brothers and sisters in dealing with this messy and deceptive world. Love and Peace, flow....

des: You're right about the portrayal of the albino monk. There was an interesting bit on the BBC last week. It seems that The Albino Fellowship in the UK is officially protesting the portrayal as being unecessarily violent and negative. Well...it IS a movie. Also, you're right about the root meaning of "Magdalene". Only I found that the roots trace back to an understanding in my Strong's Concordance of, "bitter woman of the tower". It's also very clever of Mr. Brown to name his heroine, the descendant of the Magdalene and Jesus, Sophie, automatically identifying her with the essence of the sacred feminine in antiquity. Pyramids, in Mr. Howard's opinion, seem to also identify with this theme because of his emphasis of the form in the final scenes of the film at the I.M. Pei pyramidal installations at the Louvre. Thanks for the great article AR ! flow....

MOW I believe that He was attempting to teach us that truth always reveals itself over time, especially since we are reflections of the natural world, and that is the way it was created and how it functions. The truth in any situation is usually not obvious, especially early on in any situation. It must reveal itself. The process of inventing patentable devices or processes also follows this chain of logic. To be patentable it must be novel, have a certain utility, and must be NON-OBVIOUS. As you said, one path to truth is to accentuate the absurdity of something to the extent that it's true attributes become more obvious. IMO, this is the great truth of the scriptures. If we read enough stories of how others coped with the toleration of illogical and immoral acts on the part of others, the truth of their actions and importance of their choices will always demonstrate themselves to be true or false in society over longer periods of time, and this is how G-d intended true histories to unfold themselves. IMO one can still see all this by simply turning on the television and watching the news. But of course most of the stories there are chosen and fleshed out for us by corporate media moguls so that we reach certain conclusions that are pre-determined for us. Am I being too cynical, or simply being realistic ? All is not maya yet, but we're certainly closing in on it. flow....

OA: Absolutely, and isn't it curious that the two creation story threads in Genesis are written from those same two perspectives. Deja vu all over again ? Coincidence ? Chance occurrence ? flow....

Hmmmm... Gee AR...how digital of you to take things out of context and make a list. I thought that you understood that I only post things that I believe to be at least probable, based upon my research and experiences, which have been stranger than you could probably imagine. Many of these experiences took place in a renowned institution of higher education, among learned researchers. It has all caused me to compare our world with that detailed in Orwell's 1984, and for me it has been close to that since 1984. By the way, Orwell's real name was Eric Alan Blair. Hmmmm...could all the Blairs that negatively affected my history also be a coincidence ? But things have gotten much better. I don't look back in anger very much any more. It's so non-productive. I tend to ignore much of the obvious these days, even when things are thrust into my pathway in an intentional manner so that they are very hard to ignore. The shopping went well. A few years ago things improved so much that I could switch from heavy duty foil to regular. Heh, heh, heh ! flow....

Topeka rings a bell with me. Aren't these the same people that staged quasi-violent demonstrations at abortion clinics around the US a few years ago when that seemed the thing for right wing demonstrators to do? I agree with their right to demonstrate against the war, but I don't get the homosexual side of this. Tolerating is not embracing. But then I get all tangled up anyhow when I try to determine just what motivates these people to do what they do. G-d's retribution ? Sheesh... they've been watching televangelists way too much ! flow....

Gnosis is the mostest ! Knowing is believing ! Let's get on with this ! flow....

Yeah, and then the boy was placed under the apprenticeship and care of a kindly old mentor named Gepetto ! flow....