thormas

so............another conspiracy theory. _______________ It could be said of the trumpeter that his powerful position "..........and views are being used to pervert the course of history which those with different views but a lack of such resources are unable to do." Sadly all too true! Time to say "NO!"

Oh Burl, the great man behind 'Heathens' - to not recognize this oval office occupant is the truest heathen (and that is insulting heathens). Heathens as unbelievers - what does this trumpster believe in - other than himself, even at the expense of others? Actually I have liked many Republicans, have voted for Republicans and I like certain policies they back - but this trumpster is no Republican (just ask so many true Republicans who have left the party or the less courageous ones who cower in Congress and long for their freedom). But the bottom line, my friend, is that this is not a good man, not an ethical man, not a man who truly loves and serves America and all its people - he is a narcissist, who loves himself and there are no others before him - even those on whose behalf he swore an oath. And don't fret about judgment - the man proves on a daily basis just who he is and what he values, and sometimes we must see what is there and name it for what it is; we must decide and respond - for the sake of others, for the sake of all. Accomplishments, even any(?) that aren' tarnished by this man, do not excuse the man himself. Sometimes "NO!" is the most powerful response and No! hopefully will resound throughout the land on 11/3/2020. To support such a man because of "what he has accomplished" is a compromise that is too high a price for me and a majority of Americans. I am not a betting man but I suspect him being with the goats on the last day ☹️

I do love that you bring such humor to these discussions Joseph - it's so refreshing, But good gawd you do get a little testy when one rightly criicizes the orange man. Sadly like so many defenders of 'he who golfs while Americans die' you attack when one simply points to his oh so many flaws, lies, racist remarks, attacks on women and general incompetence dealing with a pandemic, an economic crisis and a racial unrest. And that is only this week.😷 I did enjoy it when a reporter called him on lies (how many is it now?) and if he would be apologizing to the American people and the trumpster appeared stumped and then blew him off and moved to another question. I sort of felt for the the old orange guy for a second since his delimma was either tell the truth and admit to all his lies or (as is his default setting) lie and .......well there we go again. I'm sure he thought it was a, wait for it............nasty question. I am tickled when this big guy who bullies and demeans everyone calls a strong woman who confronts his incompetence, nasty. His next cognitive test will be: person, NASTY, man, camera, TV. Sadly there will be no extra points and the women will remember. So Joe: not judge, not yet,,,,,,,,,that happens on 11/3/2020; definitely part of the jury as are all American citizens; and, never an executioner although a version of that awaits him in the courts when he leaves office.........and that will be NASTY. I actually not only don't hate him but I wished him well on the day after the election, hoping (and praying) that the incredible weight of the office and the realization that he was to be the President of us all would descend on him - sadly and to this day, it has never happened. And from day one, the lies and then the bullying, and the attacking tweets and the whining and the increasing incompetence - yes it got worse and worse brought us to a point where any and all who - with eyes to see and ears to hear - had to speak up and simply say Enough. I hate what he has done and continues do in and to this country and its people (and now he seeks to impact the vote with one (rehashed) conspiracy theory and demean a (strong) woman with another conspiracy theory). Same old, same old. Hopefully we can all 'let it go and begin to heal' on 11/3/2020 as the majority of the people in the USA and the people of he world have grown weary of this unstable dunce who sits naked behind the Resolute for all the world to see.

And the very idea of limiting the vote, threatening the post office, is so un-American that any who support it, along with the orange trumpster, is complicit. Be a man Donald and wage a campaign worthy of the people (not yourself) and model the best of America: win or lose fairly - and deal with it either way. Sadly he never has and one only hopes that other Americans - Republican, Democrat and Independent - see his bull and opposes it.

I do love the trumpster calling anyone, especially a woman, nasty. It's such a wimpy thing for a man to say, "you're nasty." And coming from this clown it makes it all the more absurd. Now he is on another 'birther rant" - all the obese one does is repeat himself: retreads upon retreads.

Yet understanding this, scholar still deal with the text we have: an educated 'opinion' is still more valuable that a reading by another who also brings his/her preconceived notions to the text. Do scholars consider the scriptures to be 'untrustworthy by their very nature? Seems an Ehrman is more nuanced than that view allows. As mentioned if Acts is more like Josephus than Luke and Joesphus is given some credibility as a history, we should be a bit careful before we dismiss Acts.

Earlier in this post I gave quotes from Ehrman, the 5th quote. Scholars: Allison, Ehrman, Hurtado, Fredrikesn, and Vermes and Hengel. I have given a fair reading and presented their take - what do you think of Bart's quote? Settle the matter: a simple turn of phrase, the bottom line is that settled or not for you, the question remains what was the actual situation, what is the most accurate take - scholarly opinion trumps (no pun intended) amateur opinion. So there must be something in the texts for them to consider. Best to remain open and when time permits see what the experts are saying and why. Actually there was a council and a decision. And we also have Acts: I'm still exploring this as I never gave Acts too much credit but some scholars show that it is different from Luke and is a history like Josephus' writings. Still reading. Paul's version? Okay but there is the reality of an increased Christian mission to the Gentiles - and even Peter seems involved unless Rome was a vacation gone wrong. Good one unless those missionaries came from the Jerusalem community. Still reading because I simply don't know. Ever heard of the Hellenist Christians? A bit new to me and exploring when time permits. Part of the issue: was Paul in line with Jesus? - given some of the scholarly opinion I included above where Jesus is seen making reference to non-Jews (Gentiles) and the Kingdom. His focus was the Jews but is there mention and inclusion of the Gentiles and what is the scholarly take on these texts? Previously you didn't even consider these texts (see above). The other issue is that the disciples knew Jesus and if there were any mission to the Gentiles that they 'blessed' that is telling. The point being it is your reading of Isiah and, as we both know, many times there is more than meets the eye - thus scholarly insight. I have not been focusing on invitation so much as inclusion and how that inclusion is handled (announcement, explanation and encouragement). The difference between us is that you rely on your reading and I turn to the scholars to get the fuller story. Yet the point remains. Jewish expectations of the kind of Messiah was turned on its head: Jesus was not a military Messiah and there was no conquest or coercion - as seen in the ministry of Jesus. And yet his disciples continued with their expectation of the coming Kingdom, preaching to Jews and Gentiles, in light of this reversal of understanding. The kind of 'evidence' intrigues me - thus I turn to the experts for greater insight. I get the role of the disciples in the Kingdom but you seem to conceive of a rule like that of kingdoms of old. In his ministry Jesus did not rule like this, would the disciples who knew him (with the Risen Christ as their leader in the Kingdom) differ in how they ruled - would what they did have anything in common with earthy rule? Were the Gentiles to be 'subject' to God? The prophet speaks of all feasting at the table of God - doesn't sound like subjects but rather those who have turned to and freely worship God. Thus conflicting images so turn to the scholars or at least I do. First of all, what scholars? Sure some scholar have preconceived notions that they bring to the Bible but the best try to let the texts speak for themselves - like Ehrman and the others I have included above.

The second tine this has been pointed out.

Even one in Australia can read and watch the news and speak to friends in the States - Paul seems to have an incredible grasp of our situation. And if we did suck it up earlier, if our president, and governors followings his lead, asked us to sacrifice and modeled it, if he had not directed us to open prematurely - those businesses would not be in such a desperate way. Now they might have to suck it up longer for the good of all and so they can open and stay open. But that won't happen without leadership which we are surely lacking. New poll: 67 percent of the American people don't trust the trumpster

Depends what is meant by see God and when - in the Kingdom? I thought conscious experience of God was your phrase??

Just to push here a bit, you said God comes to us directly but it is the Son that enables this to happen...................the Son is the Word, which goes to my point. I think God is neither but I do like Spong's idea of a verb. The Eastern Fathers spoke of the divinization of man and Spong's idea helps: when man 'does God' i.e. when man does Love he is humanity doing divinity and it is in the doing of divinity that man/woman becomes 'divine' or 'one with God.'

So Augustine had a conscious experience of God - in a book 😋

No need to be amazed, actually it's not hard. Sadly, he has forced all of us to 'enter' and behold his mind and his scary innermost thoughts, rants, threats, insults, theories, racism, ignorance, lack pf curiosity, etc. - courtesy of his constant twittering and his agonizing press conferences. Actually, news of any kind is not really needed, all one needs is a daily dose of trumpster tweets to be in the scariest place in the universe - the orange one's mind. We are all where we don't want to be but can't avoid it. Of course you feel that way about the news - another trumpster conspiracy theory - also brought to us via tweets and news conferences.

Joseph, what you accuse me of is exactly what you have just done: Glass house. I have expressed some surprise at Burl's comment vis-a-vis trumpeter's marketing, asked him questions and asked if he buys into the conspiracy theories put forth and I provided a cautionary tale as they have already hurt the trumpster with many, many people - as you know. I also provided some theories put forth by you-know-who that were actual examples of a world with no basis in reality.

What does an emphasis on DEAD actually mean? I sort of like it - so ominous. Burl, I'm actually surprised that you buy into the trumpster's narcissistic self-marketing. And, you also partake in conspiracy theories? Fauci is a phony expert? This is Soros nonsense, correct? And that particular Moderna theory was already debunked. Be careful with those conspiracy theories they'll bit you in the ..........😩 They have already made a fool out of the trumpster and his minions. And, you also echo the orange one and call it the China Virus? Is it the apocalypse? Perhaps it is with the orange obese one in charge. I do remember the trumpeter being on point with his drug of choice, with injecting bleach, with magical lights and with his prediction that the virus will just go away, disappear - hell of a surprise for 165k people and their families and friends.

Of course the entire economic crisis is horrible but the lost would be substantially less if we had a president who knew what he was doing, listened to the experts and actually cared. But we don't, he (and some governors) blew it and here we are. There was a better way........but our fate is tied to a failure of a man and president. I'll go with the experts on the dangers of Covid-19. Not sure where you are getting your numbers but the yearly flu deaths in the US are far less that the present number of Covid deaths over 6 months in the US - unless I have the wrong information. And we typically have a vaccine for the flu which mitigates its impact. Last time I checked even octogenarians are people and US citizens ............and some 165K Americans actually did get sick and they died, and many probably didn't have to. But hey that's me: for the trumpster it is more important to have college football and nascar, open schools without leading the way on any effective testing, sign 'executive orders' to make himself look better and not pressure a Republican congress that wants to cut benefits that will only increase the suffering of the people. It is not AIDS or Ebola - I had a friend who died of AIDS decades ago and it was a horrible death, today that person would have been able to take 1 pill (I believe) to remain healthy. And he was able to have visitors till the end. My friend's Mother died of COVID and had to die alone in the hospital and they still have not been able to have a funeral for her. Covid is not AIDS but I was never in fear of catching AIDS. And how many US citizens died of Ebola? And how about the kids? Ninety kids dead and counting but the trumpster uses stats to tell us kids are ok - fill the schools. Ninety kids is a statistic unless it's your kid or a friend's kid but hey open the schools. I'm glad more and more people across the country are ignoring this clown. Nobody does like getting sick but suffering in our society (destruction is a bit much) is due in large part to a failed, uncaring trumpeter.

I don't! Many times it is made up and/or doesn't exist: how many TV preachers have we heard who told us they just spoke to God Himself and God wants you people watching this show to give money? How many others have said they see or experience God and they are actually sick human beings with medical conditions? How many have said that they know (from personal experience) that God is on their side and then wreak havoc in the world? How many are desperate and simply want to feel special if only for a moment? How many speak of their experience but do not act like their God in the world? So of course some people say it doesn't exist or is just made up........... And others of us simply disagree that God works this way.

I'll simply repeat: "Books are people, some still with us, some long gone (such as the writers of the NT); to put aways books is to put away these people: their lives, their insights, their contributions, their words, their spirit." Oddly, you seem to assume that one who reads does so 24/7. You seem to assume that one who reads does nothing else, has no time to reflect and 'experience.' This is as mistaken as me assuming you don't read enough and you really have to do it more - "not forever, or even a full day" but maybe "for an hour or two, or maybe even a half of day, whatever works"- just read more. But of course, I don't. As you have just acknowledged, the 'true experience' of God/Father is in and through the Word - not a direct experience of the Father. It is the Word that reveals the Father and that same Word resounds in men and women in ordinary, everyday life. I also could not honor or follow a God who chooses to reveal himself only to a certain 'those' and "therefore there are those who have a true experience of God." Such a God is a bit too choosy for me. I think God's word reveals God to all.

I use the word Incarnation: a word that is typically mis-understood but a word that, properly understood, captures the intimacy of God in man. Simply reflecting or showing God's love misses something: we are the body of God, we are doing God (Spong's idea of God as a verb). It is literally in us that God or Love is bodied forth in the world; it is in our flesh that God 'touches' others. Christianity is built on the incarnating of God and we know 'God' through the incarnated one. The Father does not come directly but through the Son.

We all value our freedoms but as people pulled together and sacrificed in other times, so too everybody should do the same now (masks, hand washing, distancing, no crowds). It is more than absurd that people are not willing to do this, to sacrifice for a few months to help bring numbers down everywhere.

I get that however my perspective is that we experience God in his Word and Spirit; God-in-himself or the Godhead is 'hidden.' As creation (Genesis) and salvation (Christ) are through the Word, that same Word resounds in everyday life calling us to relationship with God, calling us to 'know' God.

More than fine as we each describe the experience of God differently - what matters most is if, how and to what degree the experience impacts our way one in the world. I should add that I don't belief that Jesus is the only incarnation of God as I was speaking about a Christian belief. There is one Way but many paths along that way.

And to me, supernatural theism is something more than that caricature. Again, we don't know one another and you have no real idea of my experience. I believe the 'experience' of God is something other, something different than you describe. Books are people, some still with us, some long gone (such as the writers of the NT); to put aways books is to put away these people: their lives, their insights, their contributions, their words, their spirit. Simply, some us won't commit such a mistake. _________________________ God is 'present' to us as Word and Spirit: the Word is spoken through others and the Spirit (Love) is given through others. This is in-carnation. In Christianity, God is 'present' as Word, spoken in and through Jesus who is called 'Word of God.' God is not experienced directly (no one knows the Father); God is experienced in his Word, Jesus, (except through the Son). Jesus is the epitome of in-carnation. And no worries, you do not sound like an old lady just a caring human being.

I don't undermine anything - just stating a reality for many, especially his disciples and others, who became the core of the Jesus community.

Yet then they had Jesus in the flesh.