thormas

None that I know of but actually, when addressed to a beloved brother, is is kind of sweet.

Don't worry, I can take it. You seem to miss that Jesus' focus on the Jews was one thing but as Ehrman shows his parables speak of pagans participating in the Kingdom. So if true, then he took it for granted that Gentiles would share the Kingdom. We have established he didn't preach to them because he came to announce the good news to the people of God. It might seem a stretch to you but that was the mission and he apparently took it seriously right to the end. *I get that you have issues with Paul of the NT (that he took Christianity in a way contrary to what Jesus preached) but you seem to allow that have an adverse impact on your understanding that the sole focus of Jesus on the Jews did not necessarily mean that "he wasn't interested in gentiles." They were simply and understandably were not his focus. Can you point to any scholars who is this definitive? I am curious. *p.s. that is the equivalent of you saying I read into Ehrman 😜

All I did was report what Ehrman and the two prophets said. I didn't say anyone make it a definite conclusion. You miss my point: I recognize the other sayings - it is just that these saying adds something interesting to the mix and then the questions remain: did the end-time, in addition to an annihilation of pagan kingdoms, have instruction on the good news coming from the jews that (other) Gentiles sought/flocked to? If so, was it before or after the Kingdom was established? Seems you are reading into me, not me into Ehrman. 🙂

What you say about scholars may be true, however, for years, I have taken my nod from Ehrman and sought out what he refers to as 'critical biblical scholars and historians.' There are points of disagreement but there is also a high degree of agreement. I now include about a dozen such scholars and it is growing. I have always been and still am more interested in theology that I am in biblical studies. However, I have, in part, you to thank for a growing interest in the latter: you have brought up topics, for example the Temple incident, that have sparked my interest and led me to do a good deal of reading/research to get the best possible answer, discovering in the process that it s more nuanced that you (and others) have allowed. Thus the preference/need for critical scholarly opinion vs. amateur opinion when not simply reading but seeking to understand the text at a deeper level. So, I never said scholars were always right on their speculation. However, scholarly speculation or opinion is more grounded: for example, Hurtado has delved into Paul and what it tells us about the earliest 'Christian communities.' For someone to have a contrary opinion is fine but for it to be taken seriously, he/she would have to show where Hurtado is wrong or engaging in ungrounded speculation. That hasn't been done here. Running with what works for you is fine and that you don't have time or an inclination is also fine - however critical scholars - as opposed to an amateur opinion - know and show that there is more to the Bible than the untrained, unsupported eye beholds. I'm not looking to be convinced and I too enjoy a bit of debate but in these kinds of debates I am also looking to develop a more nuanced understanding of the text that is most often missed in an amateur opinion.

No one said inarguable, the point is that the scholars 'speculation' is more grounded than an amateur and that makes a difference - sometimes a considerable difference.

Agreed but as we said that was not his focus, however he did speak of the gentiles (see Ehrman) in his parables being included. And a question for me is - was that interaction, especially in light of his teachings, an 'invitation' in itself?

That is the question and neither Ehrman nor the quoted prophets make that a definitive conclusion. I have no problem recognizing the prophets on the end time including the overthrow of the kingdoms and I agree about the innocents. However, the question is do these innocents flock to the Jews for instruction about the good news before the Kingdom is established or after? If it is good news it seems that it would be before - just as Jesus announced the good news of the Kingdom before not after it was to be established.

Concerning point #1 above, Ehrman, in his book 'The Triumph of Christianity' writes, "Throughout the prophets of Scripture can be found predictions that at the end of time God would bring outsiders into the fold of the people of God as gentiles flock to the good news that comes forth from his chosen ones, the message delivered through his Jewish people." And he quotes from Isiah2:2-3, "Many peoples shall come and say, 'Come let us go up to the mountains of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways, and that we may walk in his paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth instruction and the world of the Lord from Jerusalem." And Zechariah, "Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem........saying (to the Jews), "Let us go with you , for we have heard that God is with you." ______________ Now on a fair reading, Ehrman is saying that gentiles would go in crowds to hear the good news delivered by the Jews. And the two prophets predict that the gentiles will decide to go to the Jews so they can learn God's ways and walk with him. Instruction is to come from the Jews and the gentiles will seek to learn. There are indeed verses which talk of a horrible ending and the coercion and judgment of the Gentiles......but these verses (above) speak of a different reality that the prophets predict (and of which Jesus would have been aware). Still exploring.........

That's the one: Ehrman, since he wrote it, says not only did Paul understand and take seriously the words of Israel's prophets but that those words meant the "word of salvation' (would extend) ...for all people." So Paul was in agreement on this with the prophets and Jesus. Ehrman also (as indicated in previous posts) shows that Jesus did indeed refer to and include 'non-Jews' (pagans) in some of his sayings and parables when talking about the Kingdom for all. Another issue is should any of the interactions of Jesus (listed by Elen) with non-Jews be considered as historical or of a piece with his teachings? And finally, the remaining question(s) is did Jesus allow for 'announcing' the Kingdom to the Gentiles, do his saying indicate only a violent ending and/or was such a mission in line with Jesus' teaching in the minds of his closest followers? I am not attempting to twist anything just get to the bottom after considering everything and turning to the scholars for information and interpretation. Jesus taught in parables and the some of those parables are said to reference the Gentiles. To be fair it has to be asked whether or not such mention in parables is considered an 'outreach.' However as I said earlier, "I have not been focusing on invitation so much as inclusion and how that inclusion is handled (announcement, explanation and encouragement)." Concerning Jesus as the Son of Man: what you say is likely a bit more complicated according to the scholars. It is speculation either way. As I have said, I have no problem if I am wrong I am just trying to fully understand and for that we amateurs need the help the scholars.

The trumpster's brother, Robert Trump. died this weekend. The trumpster describes his brother as also his best friend. He flys in and out to see him and leaves for his country club. Most people would stay till the end for a brother and a best friend or at least come back later or the next day. This is odd ............but we are dealing with a narcissistic sociopath - so he before everybody else. And we all are the worse for it.

To 'trust in the Lord' does not mean that you have to walk on eggshells in discussions and I take your comments as both articulating your position and also trying to get across to another what you firmly believe and what you believe might be important for others. And it is fine that I disagree and do the same in discussions with you.

Well said Elen - completely on point.

We are all citizens of the same country, now in crisis, with no true leadership at the top. There is something 'bigger' than our own course as has been evident in times past when we pulled together and were encouraged to look beyond ourselves for a greater need, for a greater cause by real leaders.

Actually, topless beaches are banned in many places and topless beaches are designated (or restricted) to certain locations. So too such statues.............that why god made museums 😀 put them in a museum and any can still 'study' them for history or artistic purposes. It still remains that they are the statues of a treasonous war against the US, in the name of salvery, that was defeated ........and is experienced as a painful reminder and acceptance (by some) of that cause. Time for them to go to a museum. We should have no problem 'suffering for others' whose need is great - as is the continued suffering of too many black citizens.

Even with the separation of powers which we have always had: it's still called Leadership. If the trumpeter 'said' we should all do this, if he modeled it, if he got the Congress behind him as a show of solidarity and if got on the phone with Governors - we would have nearly if not complete nation wide compliance. Leadership .............however we are rudderless. If it impacts the entire nation, the nation needs to respond together............sadly the trumpeter only considers what impacts him.

Well said on all counts. And for most people there is no dependency on books, simply a recognition, as you have said, that they convey the experience of other people - some long gone, some still with us and they are welcomed and respected insights of those people that are considered along with much else. There is no need to wait on God as God is ever-present.

Elen, I know you got that from a book.............☺️

OMG Burl - he pleads publicly with Russia to interfere in the 2016 election and our intelligence agencies say they interfered and the trumpeter comes out with the Putinator and says he disagrees strongly and he drops it. Really? And he totally ignores (and lies) about hearing/knowing about the bounty on our soldiers. Our soldiers. Really? There is more to that Biden story. Move past the conspiracy theory and do the research. Sure NK is doing just fine and we are no safer thanks to the trumpeter just trying to get credit without doing the long term work. Hey, how do you like the trumpeter's comments on Harris' eligibility to be on the ticket? It's not just a conspiracy theory, this is the president of the US, who is surrounded, not by the brightest lights in the country, but by people who can look at the constitution and separated fact from fiction. This is a lie, a known, easily avoidable lie by a guys sworn to uphold that constitution. Yet you support such a man?

How would a person figure that out, figure anything out, learn or know anything without others be they found in a person or a person who speaks to us in a book, or song, or play, or movie, etc.? It seems we figure things out once we have something about which to reflect and wrestle with or fret about and then, sometimes, comes the Aha! moment.

Not at all for Jesus is the epitome of the embodiment in Christianity but he is not the only incarnation of God.The Way is one yet there are many paths that share the Way. And no one has to talk about it: God is present in the words a mother uses to help her child to grow, that a stranger uses to care for another, that a friend uses when he speaks a hard truth to his friend, that a lover uses to console and care for her love, and on and on. It is God speaking in and through us that enables us to grow into our humanity (and thus our divinity). God need never be mentioned: God is ever-present empowering us even if we never know him - even if we never know he is Emmanuel (God with us) It is not that we have to be shown God's love but, rather, that the God who is Love reaches us: in nature, in a song, in a movie, in a TV show, in a book, in a stranger, in a new, budding friendship. Even if one never knows it is God who calls and loves - God still does call and love and can reach the person. However you touch on a point of utmost urgency: we, each of us, carries and brings God to the world; this is the Grace that is God embodied (even unknowingly) in man/woman. We are the ones who can create with God, we are the ones who redeem/save/heal with God - we are essential, we are the co-creators - and if we do not do it - how is God able to touch another human being? One may never hear of God or know God yet this does not mean that God is not 'with them' empowering them to overcome their circumstances and grow into their humanity, grow into a child of the Father who turns and empowers other and the world.

You do realize that the laugh face shows that I was joking with Elen, right? ____________________ Although it show be pointed out that it is a book that is telling us we need no one to teach us even as the book teaches that to us 😾

Exactly and sadly accurate.

Think I got it from you. Well if he said that there might not have been a book but there was a person and a word spoken - which once again goes to my point: not 'direct' from God but in and through others. _______________ As for God: in and through others is one and the same God. I simply think that given what direct means, it is theism revisited and speaks of a supernatural God bypassing the natural for a miraculous one-on-one with a person. Simply don't think that is how God works.

More conspiracy theories and.... the trumpeter caves to Putin, alienates the Allies, blows it with North Korea and tries to muscle the Ukraine - really tells you something. Hey, accomplishments?

only with a book😷