Elen1107

I need to believe in something. & right now I have a cold so I prob. can't keep up with this post thread or concentrate enough to elaborate.

Hi Joseph, Concerning your Tolle quote, after some thought, I’ll say that my best understanding of the subject is somewhat different. It would depend on what the mind or the “mental positions” tells a person about who they are, what they tell them about themselves and creation, {and their relationship to God, and how God sees them, from my personal perspective.} It also kind of seems from the quote that he’s saying that the consciousness of the ego is not self-aware, and that is not how I understand ego or how the word ego is used. {I’m thinking there can be a healthy ego, and then there’s an unhealthy or selfish ego, the ego it’s self is not necessarily positive or negative, though I do understand that some people see it this way and think that we should have not have an ego}. I like Tolle, but I’m not what one could call a real follower, and am certainly not a blindish follower. You are writing about who we/you/I/people really are, beyond or within who/what the mind tells us we are, or thinks we are. I have my own ideas and experiences on this, and more specifically, on who I really am. For me it’s when I can get in touch and can actually be my “true Christ self”. This could take a page or two to try to explain, and like you say maybe “it could only point to that”/ this which I’m trying to communicate. Even though this is an important and interesting subject for me, I’ll have to leave it for later. At the present time I’m afraid I’m a bit under the weather and am unable to keep up with the web board as well as a whole real bunch of other things. Hope things are going well for you and yours - E

Hi Romansh, From your last post on this thread: “For example if I believed the Earth was six thousand years old, but every scrap of scientific evidence points to a 4 billion year old earth, then either my belief is wrong, the scientific interpretation is wrong or both. And this is deference to Paul's relativism.” I agree with you on this, that either one or both of you is wrong. But here’s the thing, the earth is a fixed number of years old, regardless of whether either of you, or neither of you, or anyone else in the world for that matter knows how old it is. The earth is X number of years old and that’s the truth, and it’s not relative or figurative or adjustable. (we could get into things like when does one say the earth was really formed, was it when it was a big ball of star dust and rubble, is it when it was a ball of molten lava, (I’m not too sure about my science here), was it when it got smashed into by another large object and absorbed that object,… but once that idea is fixed and set upon, people if we can know this answer they/we can say the earth is X number of years old and that’s that, that's the truth and there’s nothing changeable or relative about it). Where you’re saying I can’t for five minutes be a god dis-believing atheist, I don’t know maybe I can. I was one for some many decades of my life. I don’t know if I want to try to fit my thinking back into that mindset, but I think that maybe I could if I really got involved in it. You’re saying that you’re not in an environment that is conducive to Christ and god(s), and that this strongly influences your choices. I’ve been going it alone in my beliefs for quite some time, which is probably why I’m so wordy and perhaps jumping in on this website a bit too speedily. I can find plenty of people who do typical, traditional Christianity around where I live. But finding people who will even hear what I have to say when it differs from the traditional party line so to speak is quite challenging. Still I think what I think, and I reserve the right to be myself in my ideas and my thoughts. I understand it to be my Constitutional right as well as my God given right. I might not tell absolutely everyone, but I am getting better at finding people who will at least let me be who I am and where I’m at, even when they differ with me. Or people who at least find me interesting even if they don’t agree with me. I hope this is all going down or coming out in a friendly and affable manner. That’s definitely the way I’ve taken your post and am figuring or hoping that it’s the way you meant it. Cheers - E

Hi Paul, Ok let me see if I can address this. You’re saying that two people see the same wire differently, one person is colorblind and the other has regular vision. First let’s establish what ‘red’ really is. I’ve studied a bit about art so I know a thing or two about light and color and that sort of stuff. Red is light being reflected off a pigmented surface at a certain wavelength, the surface reflects more of the red wave length of light than that of the rest of spectrum, and this is what the human eye perceives as red. If a person perceives it correctly or at least the way the human eye is meant to perceive it, or commonly sees it, then this person is perceiving red truthfully. They perceive the truth of what is going on concerning the red wavelength of light. I know someone who is colorblind and this person knows that he doesn’t perceive some colors correctly, particularly red and green. He’s frequently asked other people if something is either red or green. He was a painter to and did some perty good work, but he did have to ask people what color he was painting with from time to time, and learned to compensate for his colorblindness. Apparently some of the cells in his eyes didn’t pick up on certain wavelengths of light or something like that, I’m not exactly sure about the exact medical explanation here. Thing is he knew he wasn’t perceiving the truth or the reality about some colors. He didn’t say well my truth is what it should be and everyone else is wrong or mixed up or something. He knew his eyes were different and like many people with colorblindness got through life dealing with it in a way that didn’t impede his life or the quality of his life very much. Now maybe we shouldn’t say he is seeing things wrong, because that’s not very nice and perhaps not the best way to put things. But he himself would say that he didn’t see things entirely as the really are in terms of color, he would say that he saw things differently and he knew that his truth in the perception of color was not the truth, or to put it more simply not accurate. So in a certain sense his truth was that he didn’t perceive the entire truth or reality about color and the colors in the spectrum that the human eye can perceive. I hope that when we disagree a bit or challenge each other with certain ideas, we can and are doing it in a friendly way, the point being to get clearer perspectives on things and to… *the truth* J Cheers - Elen

Hi Joseph, From your last post on this thead: “Many fundamentalists may think they have the truth but you and i may see that as a dysfunction or lie. If they are trapped in that dysfunction (or blinded by prexisting beliefs) where is their current free choice to choose what we may think we see more clearly.. How is their choice free to make if they can't make it because they are blinded.” I have trouble believing that most of these fundamentalists have no choice in what they think or what they believe in. One of my standards or ways of figuring things out is just by having a feeling that something is off somewhere. That something is not right in my own thinking or that I’ve been taught or told something that doesn’t quite fit right or doesn’t seem right at all. These people must have the same faculty for sensing or discerning that something is missing or some interpretation of something is not quite what it could be or even what it should be at all. They must understand themselves as being free to think, it’s perty hard not to know that one is free to think, at least in the United States, which is where most of these fundamentalists are. I gotta think about the second part of your post for a while, honestly I don’t know quite what I think or feel, it sounds rather lovely though. I get it that the more one is in union and in touch with Jesus’s spirit then the more one is able to perceive and discern the truth and also be able to do it in a kind and loving fashion. Is that part of what you are trying to say? Thanks - E

Hi, - I'm kinda short on time right now. I just want to say that I hope to be getting back soon with some replies. - Thanks

Hi, I just want to say to the people who have made posts directed to me that I'm a bit short on time right now. I'm interested in these subjects however and hope to be getting back with replies sometime soon. Thanks and thanks for waiting.

I don't know what happened. I kept getting messages like the server that you are trying to contact is not working and things like that. I tried Googling and searching with AVG and the same sort of thing kept happening and I still couldn't connect. Maybe it had something to do with a local server that my internet connects through, but like I say it seemed I could connect to other sites just fine. Thanks for the consideration - E

Hi soma, Thanks for being ok about the spelling thing. I’m figuring that we are all here to help each other out and where we differ or have a disagreement or even a bit of something to say about spelling, it’s all for mutual enlightenment and edification for everyone. At first I actually thought you were using a word that I didn’t know the meaning of, till I looked it up in Word and found out there was no such word. Then I figured you must have meant ‘mythology’. What I sometimes get from the whole flagellation, ridicule and crucifixion part of the Christ story is that here is this man that is put in the most defamed, most slandered, most ridiculed, most crushed and cursed position that a person possibly could have been put in in those days, and probably any other day. As it stands and turns out, this man was and is the most together, the most knowing, the most in knowing what he was doing, the best of the bestest in terms of intellect, emotional health and spiritual enlightenment and even much, much, much more. What it has said to me is that what is made of a person, or how a person is made to appear by others and also group-think or opinion can sometimes be extremely wrong and even the opposite of what really is the truth. Christ himself is quoted as saying, “Do not judge people by their appearance, but by their fruit.” {don’t know if I really know what ‘fruit’ means here in this context}. Also that he was able to endure all this and still perty much know who he is/was, is perty amazing and astounding to me. That Jesus was and is full of love is kind of an understatement and is really, really hard for me to put into words. It’s this Love that made Him eternal, pure love enhances and changes his/one’s own chemistry and energy so much that there’s literally no end to it, this, them and Him. When Paul says, “Love is eternal” he’s saying something really amazing, profound and intensely true and beautiful here. I had a conversation with a friend recently about how nothing harmful can be eternal - I'm thinking that it's this Love that does this, that makes it so and that keeps everyone and everything from being harmful and/or being in and of harmful stuff. Thanks for reading

Hi, it’s me again Joseph, where you say: “While i would agree that these are dysfunctional ideas and concepts........ i am of the persuasion that they are a natural part of our evolution of consciousness and even necessary. In the scheme of things i would say it could not be otherwise.” Is what you’re saying is that we have to learn to decipher and discern the wheat from the shaft so to speak with these ideas, and even if they are written into and structured in and around our most sacred documents and important spiritual belief systems? – I’m thinking this would be a really big, serious and important step in the flow of human mental and spiritual evolution. Especially at this point in time and history. I have some ideas that Jesus himself, between the ages of like 13 and 30 traveled all over the known world, (and possibly beyond), learning from everyone and everything that was out there, and then did something very much like this. Separated the wheat from the shaft or the truth from the fiction and the dysfunctional in ideas, theory and practice from those that are really true, worthwhile and of real and sure value. This is part of what makes him such a very special person, his ability to understand decipher and sort through things. [it also makes him a bit more like everybody else and makes what he taught the gathering, diciphering and cummulation of many different cultural belief systems, which I think could very much be a good thing]. I could elaborate more on this, but perhaps it’s better to wait and start a different thread. I’ve gotten a lot of this understanding from a video called “The Unknown Jesus”, I think it’s put out by A&E as well as from other sources. There’s even a page on Wikipedia that ties in with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_years_of_Jesus I really like what you said: “As Paul in the New Testament writes to the Ephesians. "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him: " (my emphasis on all)” This really makes it sound like all this struggle is really happening in the natural or divine order of things, and that it’s something that we as people have to learn to do, be aware of and stay on top of, - which is what you’ve said yourself in your post. I’m really liking what you said: “If there be such a thing as a Master Will or Order..... it will certainly be accomplished in this dramatic dance.” Seeing it as a “dramatic dance” feels and computes a lot better than “what the b*x!* b*x! h*#! is going on here and all over the place, anyways! Where I get tripped up is that, I have to live in this world – which means that I have to live in a world where all this dysfunction is going on,… and some of it is really mean, mean dysfunction. Both other people and myself are really being hurt by all this cr*#!p It’s even killing people and torturing them both psychologically and physically – so hanging back and saying that it’s all in the natural order of things – kind of feels like a lazy or lackadaisical way out for me. This may or may not be the only life we have, but regardless this is real time and real life times that are being spent in pain and agony and confusion. Where you talk about this being my introduction thread, I’m kind of not so glad that I’ve presented this particular problem/conundrum as part of my intro. Maybe I somehow needed to say that there are problems here and with traditional doctrine or at least with the way that traditional doctrine is understood. I’m rather wishing that I had intro-ed with some other idea(s) but here I am with it and here we are. Since I’ve written some of this thread, I’ve actually, for a little bit, thought of trying on, so to speak, some of the traditional outlooks regarding this kind of thing. Not that God actually ordained and required this sort of thing, or that people or a particular person needed to be tortured and sacrificed to God to make God happy and bloodthirsty satisfied with everything and with all of us… But that maybe in the cosmic dysfunctional order of things, that to break the seal or the tie between sin and death, somebody had to do something perty extreme and even downright drastic. [biblically sin is equated as if it is death itself and goodness as life and life itself, regardless of physical life and death; at least it is in the New Testament.] This has nothing to do with God, or what God needs and requires of humanity and so forth. It has to do with how messed up and dysfunctional we are as people, and that maybe somehow in the cosmic mixed-up, dysfunctional chemistry of things that sin or evil (doing) is somehow tied to blood and the chemistry in our bodies and spirits – right now this seems perty farfetched to me, and even a good bit “out there” and weird, but I’m looking at the ideas there anyways. We are too often too much out of balance with God and the way things really should be or ought to be. For me to just dismiss some longstanding and hard held tradition, outright and just like that, without giving it any thoughts or consideration what so ever, is a bit unconscientious. Right now I’m actually too scared to actually “try on” this perspective, so to speak. It’s too much like sending my thinking and inside being in two very extremely different directions at once, and frankly I just plain hate this part, (the crucifixion, the ridiculation and the “flagellation” that is.) (“Do not delight in what is evil, but rejoice in what is good”, Paul of Tarsus – it’s a choice - … and I think the crucifixion was perty dang awful). Thing is that this would get us all into the Adam and Eve type thing and that Adam evolved independently as a species, and I’m sorry one gender and one gender only does not make a species in my book, at least not with the more sophisticated and complex life forms. It also makes people responsible for what their earliest ancestors did, I don’t believe that people are responsible for what their actual, one generation earlier, parents have done,… which is express quite eloquently in Ezekiel, I believe, so how could we be resposible for what these two people did back at the beginings of all human existance. Where I’ve gotten hung up, or what has been a real lynch pin has been for me, is that I really want a complete and intact sacred document or book. Sometimes I actually feel like I need one. I guess it’s perty obvious from this that I’m trying to dig or find my way out in two directions at once or in any direction that works. I really hope to put the truth first and get to the bottom or top of this numb-drum, and actually get somewhere in my thinking and understanding of these things and maybe have something to offer to others in the process or the conclusions of the whole thing. Thanks for reading all this. – I think I’m kind of writhing so much because I haven’t had many people or places to express ideas on this/these subjects,… and this is the overflow… - Also for anyone reading, even though this post has been directed mostly to Joseph, because of the turns and ideas he’s placed in the dialog – I’m hoping that anyone who wants to respond or reply will feel free and comfortable in doing so. I’m kind of figuring that that’s the way this post board works – maybe unless someone specifically says differently. Hopefully this is how we can actually get somewhere in having a sane sense of understanding about the entirety of the Christ story, and get more to the truth in the tradition(s) and/or without them.

Hi, just my luck on the one day that I get the most replies, I can’t get on line, my car needs some fix up and I have a cold. Apologies that it’s taken me a while to reply in return. Kinda in response to everyone’s recent posts, I gotta say that I perty much believe in Christ as the completion or accumulation or epitome of human evolution, possibly maybe even Gods first fully evolved child, but I don’t know about these concepts exactly or if they are only 80% true or something like that. Part of the benefit of a web board like this is the opportunity to put a few ideas out there and then through the correspondence try to get to the bottom (or top) of whether they are true or not. Obviously with some of these ideas I’m just doing the best I can with what I’ve got to work with and my understanding of things. Paul, you mention homosexuality and also eternal pain in judgment. There’s something about homosexuality that I don’t quite understand, but then I don’t understand why people eat bubblegum flavored ice cream or hot spicy foods either, so I figure my not quite getting it is perty much like the same kind of thing. However if someone were to try to legislate taking bubblegum ice-cream or hot sauce off of the menus I would very much be on the side of the bubblegummers and hotsaucers even if I would choose not to try these foods. If people want to talk about the right and wrong of things, at least gay people are not making unwanted babies and leaving them neglected or abandoned and painfully emotionally injured all over the place. That’s a good deal more wrong than anything I can see any gay people doing, (where I sometimes get into the right and wrong of things is about whether people are making a real commitment or not or if people are abusing other people’s feelings, and I don’t think that this is in any way preference specific.) I have a friend who says that homosexuality is Gods answer to over population, if this is true then we all should celebrate it and them. When it comes down to eternal pain and judgment, I got to admit that it’s something I don’t think about too much. If I do sometimes wonder if this kind of thing exists at all then I’ve gotta think that it’s really only for people who do things that are really, really, really wrong, like mass genocide, serial murder rape and torture or some of the other really, really heinous things that we sometimes hear about. I’ve sometimes wondered that if a person is really incredibly wrong and awful, horrible and hideous then maybe they do have to go through some kind of something until they “get it” that you don’t ever do these things. At the same time I think that in a way time does end at a point and “hell” can only exist till the end of time, so in the long, long, long run of things, everyone really does “get out”. The thing is though, to not take the long/ wrong way home, cause at some point along that road one is gonna really, seriously regret it and wish they didn’t. Like I say I really don’t think about this stuff too much so if my thoughts are a bit sketchy and I sound like I’m not completely sure if I even believe in them myself this is why. It’s just ideas that I’ve “played with” from time to time. PS- Paul you might want to check the spelling in the poem you’ve shared, I think that one of the words may have made the meaning come out more to the opposite of what it’s meant to say. Thanks I’m kinda short on time and long-drawn out with this flue/cold thing I have (even this post sounds groggy to me), so I’ll have to respond to Josephs and Somas posts later. Thanks everyone for corresponding, I’m hoping that this all can be a real good thing. Thanks and Laters - E

Hi, I'm wondering if this discussion board website was down today? I've had the worst time getting it to open both with explorer and chrome. Other websites seemed to be working just fine for me. I just want to know if it's something here or if maybe there's something amiss with my computer. Problem is, now I'm a bit short on time and don't know if I can participate much today. Thanks

Hi Paul, I’ve got to say I disagree with you. I don’t think that truth is all that relative. I think that we as people can develop and fine tune or ability to discern what truth is and what is not. Here’s a simple scenario that might show a bit more of what I mean: Person A says something lousy to person B. This leaves them both feeling negative and uncomfortable. To “fix” this Person A goes into a spiel and a bunch of talk and convinces person B that e didn’t really say that. So now it’s no longer part of person B reality that this thing was really said, it’s no longer e’s truth. But, however, it’s still the truth. Now person A still feels kind of uncomfortable about the whole thing, so e goes into a further spiel and talk and convinces em self that e em self didn’t really say that. Now it’s also part of person A’s truth and reality that e didn’t really say it. But again, it’s still the truth – that is that person A really did say something lousy to person B, even though it’s now not part of the truth and reality of either of the two people involved. Another simple and common example might be seen in the following: A bunch of people, even a whole lot of people may not believe that this earth is round. It’s not part of their reality; it’s not part of their truth. However the truth is that this earth really is round or roundish and always has been. So the truth doesn’t always correspond to what an individual’s truth or even a group of people’s truth is. Similarly a group of people may believe that creation stops at the top of our earth’s atmosphere, this is not the truth, and just because it’s been part of large group of peoples reality doesn’t make it any truer or any more so. One could say something similar about slavery, exploitation, abusiveness or oppression. Just because it’s part of a group of people’s reality and truth that these things are acceptable doesn’t mean they are. Nowadays one will find a lot more people who will say that these things are not acceptable and that that is the real truth and the reality concerning these types of things. The thing is not to get caught up in “who’s idea it is” or “where this idea came from” and just to get to the truth – Then everyone wins, because everyone’s got another piece of truth or of the truth. You mention mental illness and abuse, and yes I can see how these things can influence a person’s actions and decision making. These things can affect the lens that one sees themselves, creation, other people and the world around them through. However I do believe that God, JC or even a set of higher principals and ideas can polish, so to speak, and clear up the lens or the set of ideas that we all seem to be perceiving everything through. They may have been stuck in a situation where their lens became marked up or marred in the first place, and there was virtually nothing they could do about it. However they do have a choice to go on and find ideas, insights, principals, spiritual realities and insights or whatever ideas and experiences that can help clear up and “polish” their lenses and enter into another reality or at least into a reality that will also include non-abusive behavious and clearer sense of sanity. Thanks for reading all of this. I know it doesn’t cover these subjects completely, but at least it’s a start and a door opener. E

Paul Does hanging on to some of these dysfunctional ideas and concepts curtail and impede our natural and even God centered or directed evolution? Do they make us stop growing and evolving?

Soma - a question and a random thought: Can one be part of "Gods pure ocean of consciousness" and still be independent? Still have a mind and a functional guiding rudder and sense of independent direction within one's self?

Soma I get what you are saying, I’ve read some Eckhart Tolle who talks about quieting the mind and experiencing the present and that this can be a doorway to spiritual enlightenment and awakening. I happen to be very much a westerner however, and a north-westerner at that, so I really like well-defined concepts and to try and get the right word/words for everything. That’s us, westerners, we like to analyze, investigate and explore everything. I’m thinking that for me, for the time being anyways, I’m trying to include the rest of my being along with my minds or the intellectual experience. Not leaving the mind out so much, but including the heart and spirit and my whole being in life’s and spiritual experiences. And yeah, I probably won’t be able to put much of this into accurately descriptive words, though that doesn’t mean I won’t try. You're probably right however, too much mind or intellect tends to delete or curtail real experience, and real spiritual experiences too.

Hi Soma, Thanks for the reply. I agree with you that we can have the same or similar experiences of God as many of these spiritual and God centered people. I take it from your post where it says “methology” you mean mythology and that you think that this part of the traditional Christian story is a myth. Maybe I do too. I think I just have to come to terms with the fact that for at least right now anyways, I just have to say that I just don’t get, don’t understand and frankly don’t do this part of the Christian religious story. That is that I just plain skip it. There is a piece of Islamic philosophy that says that Jesus was never crucified. I very much would like to believe this version of the Christ story and that he became eternal by some other means. By his spirit, his insights, his being and nature being full of pure, un-darkened love. I sometimes wonder if the crucifixion was a story made up by some Christians in order to protect His identity and hide him from those who were out to get him. As an added note crucifixion could also be spelt: cruci-fiction, which kinda in a funny way points to it being a fiction. Thanks for reading

I’m kind of thinking that part of it is about what lens(es) we see the world and creation through and this will influence what choices we make and this influences and affects our free will. You say you don’t have a choice to “go with God or go with Christ”, because you don’t believe in them. But you do have a choice to go with the truth and the best of your perception and ability as to what the truth is. To me and other Christians, we might feel this will eventually lead you to Christ. I actually believe that Christ and God are alive in the truth, whether it be about big things or little things. But all this is besides the point. Somehow you must be guided by some kind of code that influences how you make decisions, as I guess just about everyone is. Where you make a differentiation between choosing to go with Christ and being caused to go with Christ… I would say that we can be caused to come to Christ, that is we can be caused to see and know what and who Christ is. But at this juncture (whether it takes 10 minutes or 10 years) it becomes up to us, that is that it's our choice, whether to go with Him and God or not.

Hi Joseph, Thanks for the link. I just don't understand what this stuff is doing bouncing around in modern day Christianity. I kind of feel like that if a person really believes in this stuff, - that is in a God that requires, arranges and approves of a human life and blood sacrifice, and that of Es son at that... This could make the believers mentally ill and even possibly lead to psychosis. It's not like there's no harm done and everything's fine. I kind of feel like this stuff an a few other things ruins and corrupts the entire bible and the whole Christ story. This is really hard to deal with. Thanks again for reading

Hi Romansh and Joseph, I don't seem to have an option to save a page as a draft. Perhaps it's because I'm a new member and this option is only offered to a longer term user? I like using explorer for the internet because I have certain security functions set up in the browser, though I might try using chrome for this site. This problem seems to have somehow corrected itself. I’ve tried several other times to copy and paste from Word to the message boxes and it simply didn’t work. Today I seem to be able to do it with out any problems. The above 3 sentences are c&p'ed from Word and right now it's working fine. Thanks for your input and help

I'm unable to copy and paste text from Word. I've tried the paste functions in the upper right corner of the post box, and have tried using the Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V keyboard functions. I can't even get a word to copy and paste when just working with in the post box. I prefer to work in Word, it's more familiar and gives me more time to edit and think about what I'm saying. I can even think about an idea for a day or two before posting it. Can anyone help me with this? Thanks

I grew up with very negative concepts of who God is. Questions like who is God really, what is love really and who am I really and in relation to God can leave one feeling lost. It's my understanding that even the Catholic faith is changing from with in. Dr. Spong has been very helpful for me in getting past the negative concepts presented by traditional doctrines. However, I don't feel one has to agree with him implicitly all the time either. (and I don't believe he would want someone to). We have freedom of religion in this country, so one is free to pick and choose what to believe in. The thing is to get to the truth and not to be stuck with and in misaligned or misguided concepts. I think we as people can develop our faculty for perceiving the truth. Using this faculty, being in touch with perception of when things really ring true, can be a guide post in the getting there. The thing is to put the truth first and believe that everything else will fall into place from there. Borrowing from and sticking with some traditional beliefs can be a good thing, it can also be very negative. The thing is to get to and keep with the truth no matter where the ideas and concepts come from. Good Luck on your path

Hi Paul, Thanks for your Welcome, reply and input. I love the Marianne Williamson quote that you have as part of your signature, I've read it a few times in the past two days since I've been a member at this site. I just saw a Spong video today where he talks about how the gospels were written as Jewish liturgy, and that Jesus was placed in the position of the Yom Kippur lamb who was actually an intercessor between the people and God. It seems that people often need to replace their old religious ideas and symbols with new ones that follow in close parallel and with similar structures. The other, similar mind bender that I get from the bible is where God supposedly commands Abraham to tie up and hold a knife over his son and then tells him not to kill the child at the last minute. This is felony child abuse and terrorism, and as Spong would say, "not a god that I would choose to believe in." I keep thinking that if anything like this really did happen, that it might have really been a goat/kid that Abraham was given to sacrifice. With out this goat possibly Abraham could not have supported another child, so it proved to God that he really loved him and proved to his son that he loved him too and that he was not replaceable. Somehow this got twisted through time and tradition into being a child instead of a kid goat, possibly because of economic strife or wars. Regardless, I do believe that Jesus is still alive. Whether he "died" on the cross or not, and why are 2 other questions altogether. Thanks for reading Cheers and Good Day E

I'm thinking that the word God is a bit like the word person or even an individual persons name. For instance I have a friend named Pam. Now the word or the name Pam cannot possibly express who that person is, what she's like or what her life experiences have been. As I get to know her however the name Pam opens up in my mind all sorts of images, feelings and thoughts - most of them positive and that I'm glad to be thinking about. Now the word God can invoke all sorts of thoughts, feelings, ideas and images in the consciousness of a person saying or hearing the word. They can be extremely negative or extremely positive or a conglomeration of the two. The thing is to find the understanding of the word God as one that is true. To me this has to be an extremely positive understanding and perception, even a revelation, if not then it's not God. Though I can't say that I know God in Es entirety, {I don't know if too many people besides JC do}, I am trying to understand God as best I can for where I'm at and for my place/years in this life. I do think that we as people can develop our faculty for perceiving the truth and for perceiving what is true. Perceiving God as something that is purely positive and intensely positive, not a false positive or positives covering up or condoning a negative, affects me as the perception of a real and complete total truth. It's hard to explain, maybe one has to just keep trying to do it and experience it. To keep trying to tune into what God really is - or what I keep telling myself is to keep trying to tune into what - if God were really God, what would God really have to be like to really, really be really truly God. This directs my consciousness into the perception of a positive and positiveness that for me has been completely overwhelming, mind boggling and full of pure and undiluted love. I don't know if this all really pertains to what your post is about, or if it really makes all that much sense, words being what they are and poor substitutes for actual experiences. It really does kind of sound like I kind of am kind of making God up, - the only thing is what I end up experiencing is something that I, myself, could never have made up. I really am experiencing something. "Knock and the door will be opened", are the words that I remember to support me in this venture and journey. Thanks for reading

Concerning the vindictive God thing; I've dealt with this by embracing the words of Paul of Tarsus -(who in other ways I am not that great a follower of). He says, "Do not ask who will go up or go down, but know that the word of God is in your mind and on your lips." or it might be "...in your heart and on your lips". I'm kind of like it's not my business or my call if I make it all the way or not, my thing is to just do my best and then if I make it, it will be a wonderful gift. Though I do strive to get into heaven, I can't say I know how the whole thing and operation works. I'm thinking that the vindictive God thing might be for people who really, really do really wrong things, and this is supposed to work as a deterrent for the really bad things that a few people do do. It's not for people who occasionally say the wrong thing or who are confused about some of the smaller details about how to live. Also when people do mess up in the more regular ways there's always the option of owning up, apologizing, making restitution if called for and changing ones act and way of doing things. (these 4 steps are all from the 12 steps). It's not like if one messes up a bit that there's nothing one can do about it and one is just stuck with ones self and what they've done that misses the mark. I don't think that we are supposed to live in fear of God - We are supposed to live in awe of God. This word awe may have in not too few cases been mistranslated or misunderstood to mean fear.