Elen1107

To me, PC means a wide range of things to a wide range of people. Lately I've been thinking of myself as a pre-Constantinian Christian, (as well as a pre-canonization Christian). Just trying to get, or "tune into" the Spirits of JC, God/Higher Power/Great Spirit etc. , and what's called the Holy Spirit. Even according to the New Testament, that's what the first generations of Christians were doing. . . They didn't have a/the book.

Really like this video by Bart. Thanks for posting it. Think I'll get the book too.

Yup, Peace Love and Freedom Together are something to Believe in E.

Thanks Paul, Maybe I can do some research on the subject myself. One has got to wonder how much has been hijacked and by whom. I think that's just why I go with the spirit, the words get too weird and wound up. Peace Love and Freedom to You and Yours Elen

Joe, I find just forgetting is the key to mine. And letting what some people do be on them, they can take it up with themselves or their Creator. All I know is what's on them is not on me, and it's not on me to forgive them if they are just going to use and abuse forgiveness in order to string out their abusive, hideous routines forever and ever. Elen

Hi Joseph, My experience has been very different. For me forgiveness has just opened the hatch for people to do the same thing over and over and over again, sometimes forever. The things that Jesus says about a person having to pay back the last penny, about owning up and confessing and about repenting, and yes, then other people need to forgive them, but are these all things null and void and all that’s required or needed is forgiveness? It can be hard sometimes as is said in the Lord’s Prayer, “help us to forgive” but eliminating any need for restitution or change and just forgiving,… that’s like asking someone to swallow something without putting it in their mouth and chewing it first. They just can’t do it. I’ve held both coworkers and fellow students accountable for themselves when they have been really demeaning and bullying to another person, and with no call or rhyme or reason what so ever. I was never in a position of power in relation to them. Sometimes this was to my detriment sometimes people respected me for it. The reason I did it was because they were being intolerable and hideous and it needed to stop. All I could do was say something, which perhaps wasn’t that much, but I was letting them know that they weren’t as cute as they thought they were being. Maybe the next time they'll think a bit before they just go around derailing and breaking others down.

Yeah but Joseph, you’re supposing that a person can always get away from the person who is abusing them or as you say has burned them. It may be a coworker and other jobs may not be that easy to come by or a person has enough time invested in the company that it’s detrimental for them to change jobs. It could be a classmate or someone on campus, again changing schools could be detrimental. It could be a neighbor who just won’t leave other people alone, and moving is not practical or even possible at the time. It could be a roommate or dorm mate and it would take some months or longer before one or the other can move out. It could be a family member that one just can’t throw out. The person could be a child and unable to work and make it on their own and get away from another abusive family member. It could be an elderly person who is dependent. It could be someone who because they have children can’t afford to move out and get away from an abuser. In addition abusers often set up traps and threats so a person can’t get them out of their life. I’m sure I’m missing a lot of scenarios here, but you get the picture. Also why should the person who is doing nothing wrong always have to move on and the abusive person gets to stay and take over the neighborhood, the company, the campus or what have you. Sometimes holding people accountable and expecting something in order to be forgiven can be a step to real and positive change. Also forgiving or not forgiving is not necessarily judging, it’s just not tolerating abusive behaviors any more. One isn’t judging them in terms of heaven and hell and as if they are God, I think that most people know they’re not God. It’s just holding them accountable for their own actions and expecting a certain standard of sanity from them. If I’m lousy to someone I expect myself to apologize and make restitution, I don’t expect them to just forget about it and lie and pretend it didn’t happen when it did, that would be like adding an additional mind bender to what has already gone wrong. I’m not asking anyone to live up to a standard that I myself wouldn’t live up to in the first place. I’m not giving anyone a measure that I haven’t first taken on or am willing to take myself.

I don’t know Joe; I sometimes wonder at what point do you say to someone: own up, shape up, and make up, that is make amends or restitution? I’m talking about things like abuse where bones are actually broken and people are forced to live in a constant state of terror. I’ll also add that sometimes these people are looking for someone to set limits for them, instead of just forgiving and making it ok for them so it can go on and on and on, when it’s clearly and unquestionably not ok. As far as anger goes, sometimes there is such thing as righteous anger, even Jesus got angry sometimes and called people a brood of vipers or a den thieves. If a person actually has to do something when they’ve done something wrong to someone else, like apologize, make restitution, and change their act so they have some positive track record that evens and balances out their old one, they are much less likely to repeat the same abuses over, and over, and over again. Jesus spoke about our having to and needing to forgive when someone repents. Not just say it’s ok and in doing so give that person what they take as encouragement for such clearly wrong and dysfunctional abuses, which then go on and on. I'm not trying to shift the responsibility off the abuser or the abusive here. I'm just saying at some point people have a right to stand up to them and put it on them to get their own act together. I guess if a person can't or won't forgive when someone really apologizes and fully repents, well that's on them if they can't forgive, but blind forgiveness to the point of mayhem and a long string of abuses doesn't work at all either. You say right and wrong are matter of degrees, with one end perhaps going up to God and eternity where the other end goes down to darkness and who knows where. At what point do you decide where zero is and a negative scale is on one side and the positives are on the other. Degrees can go on forever as far as I can see and at some point these degrees seem to end up being perty far apart. Mixing some of the negatives in with the positives doesn't help very much and at some point just looks like someone trying to get away with something.

I’ve got to say that I believe in things such as right and wrong, good and bad, enlightenment and evil. I once came across an American Indian saying in a book of their legends and sacred stories, it said – there is no such thing as good and evil, only good and fear. I liked this and took it on as part of my thinking for a while. But it seemed that just about the moment I took it up as an idea that I believed in, I started to be confronted with a number of really negative things. Things like really hideous child abuse and animal abuse, things like in the ASPCA commercials but about people as well as the animals. Things concerning drug addiction where children were not only born addicted but were more than half starved from neglect and the use of finances for drugs instead of food. Things like the holocaust or mass genocide and murder. Slavery along gender and age lines for the purpose of “sex” and forced breeding. Dividing things in to right and wrong may or may not sometimes cause war. However eliminating a virus or catching a cancer while it is still small and before it becomes an infestation and a massive tumor can stop and prevent a lot of mayhem, and war also.

Joseph, what do you mean by "continuum"? if I can ask.

For myself, even if my life wouldn’t change outwardly one bit, things like where I live and what I do, what car I drive, etc.,… for myself having a sense of purpose still effects my sense of wellbeing and positive energy level and the general positive energy flow in myself and in life. Feeling like one counts for something, even in the simple little one person on this earth kind of way, can really add something positive to this life. What it changes is one’s perspective,… from it doesn’t matter what I do anyways so what does it matter how I treat people or take care for myself, or does it even matter if one drives safely or walks out into moving traffic, if it’s all the same anyways. If I feel like I count for something even if it’s just to “God”/a “Higher Spirit” and JC, well at least that’s two beings who care and know how to care, and it means something whether other people are being ok or smucky or whatever. It also makes me feel that the little kind, caring or helpful things that I can do during the course of a day can add up to something. They are just not gone into the darkness or into the void anyways, even if it sometimes kinda looks that way. It also tells me that we all count, and who am I to put down or stigmatize another person, like I have the judgment keys to heaven and hell or something. Yeah, right next to my mailbox key, between that and a local supermarket key tag,… nope, it ain’t me who’s got that key set, and I don’t really think that it ever will be. Furthermore I don’t want it. It’s enough responsibility to figure out my own little life, never mind having to do it for someone else. I don’t think that too many other people have that “key set” either.

Paul, I definitely like your understanding of this passage better than a literalistic interpretation of it. It definitively makes more sense and puts it into some kind of context. Can I ask where you got the understanding that Gehenna was a real place on edge of town? I haven’t heard this one before and wonder who or where the translation or the information comes from. I guess the other thing that bothers me about the passage is that it states one can only divorce in a case of “sexual immorality”. What if one’s spouse comes at them with a butchers knife on a regular basis, or serves up poisoned rat for dinner, or some of the other really sick things that we sometimes have to hear about. I could understand if it said “extreme immorality” or “excessive immorality”, but just leaving it at “sexual immorality” seems to leave the passage more than a bit hollow. I can’t imagine having to tell anyone that they have to put up with and live with that sort of thing for the rest of their life. That to me seems like a crime and a sin in its own right, even worse than sexual immorality, which yeah, is not alright.

No worries. Maybe part of the question or perspective is whether something is morally good or bad, right or wrong, and to what degree. Something can just be a mistake but there’s really no moral or quantitative judgment that can go on regarding it. Similarly something can just be unfortunate but again how much moral judgment or discretion can one apply to the circumstances when it’s just unfortunate. I think there’s something to be said for just focusing on what’s positive, or what’s good or what’s right or ok,… and literally forgetting about what’s bad, what’s wrong or what’s just not with it. In a way this kind of attitude kind of makes what’s negative dissipate and just dissolve into a non-memory,… and the circumstances around it either disappear or change themselves into something else with a positive intent or inner structure instead of a negative or harmful one. I’m not sure, maybe this kind of attitude could become something like denial, in which case it would allow something negative to snowball or take on more vim. But I’m thinking it could just as well or more make negative stuff dissipate and simply go away. There are things that one can’t forget or shouldn’t have to forget, like if they are going to keep company with someone who has done them wrong all the time. But if the negative circumstances are no longer around and in one’s life every day or most days, tuning it out / forgetting about it/them can possibly be a real answer or solution.

Thanks Joe

Could be into JC and or one's true Christ self

Evolution is a description of what we do,… not only of what we observe,… or don’t do perhaps,.. One can devolve I suppose if they so choose, or choose to stand still if they so choose to also. I don’t see evolution as just a description of what we observe, but it can be observed. (and a lack thereof can be observed also) Evolution is to grow and learn to go beyond our one time limits, can we be conscious of our evolution? Can evolution be conscious? I think so and that this may be a part of “higher”, advanced or expanded evolution. Can we evolve as Christ did and even evolve to or near the same level(s) that he did? He’s quoted as saying we can. This is a greater question in relation to universal purpose and edification. Straight line or revolutions, orbits and spirals - we are not moving in time or space in a straight line, but rather in revolutions and orbits. We mark the time by days, one revolution of our earth around its axis, it’s really not a straight line in time, it’s a revolution. We mark a year by and orbit or revolution of our earth around our sun, again not a straight line of time or days endlessly strung out in a straight line one after another, it’s an enormous orbit and more like a circle or a loop. Then there’s our sun and solar system revolving around the center of our galaxy the Milky Way, and the Milky Way may in turn be moving in some other way, in revolutions or orbit around or in relation to something else. Perhaps we are moving in a spiral, not unlike the DNA spiral, that in itself is headed or directed somewhere. There has been some research that indicates that being perfectly still would be like having a heart attack. If one looks at an EKG monitor one can see the heartbeats displayed one after another in time and space (for diagrams of EKGs see the pictures on the right hand side at the following link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrocardiography ) This is also true of our individual heartbeats. They are not beating up and down or in and out continuously in one spot, but continuously moving through time and space as our bodies are and as our planet and our galaxy is. It’s been determined that if a person were moving close to or at the speed of light that this person would age much more slowly and much less. See the following links for a more detailed description of this. The following are from Cornell University regarding this subject: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=593 + http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=67 How fast are we moving already and what does this have to do with our lifespans, our health and sense of creation and eternity? How does this tie into our evolution, our energy levels, our linear and/or revolving-evolving thinking, and our lifetimes? That will have to wait for another post as this one is long enough already.

The above quote I find enlightening and is/was an "ah-ha" moment for me.

I’m thinking that the above quote is particularly beautiful and enlightening, even though I don’t completely agree with it. One could say that this actually means a person closer to what we call “God”, or could mean that they are in touch with “God”. In the same way that people say that the Buddhist state of “Awakening” or the Buddhist and Hindu state of Nirvana are close to “God” though they themselves may not always say or think so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana Buddhists and Buddhism specifically states that Buddha encouraged people to challenge his ideas, learn from them and build on them. The Buddhists that I’ve met would have no problem and would even be proud of this kind of interpretation or analogy. Some would even say that that’s what they’re here for with their belief system.

To quote Paul of Tarsus: “Do not delight in what is evil, but rejoice in what is good”. This clearly states what a person is happy about a matter of choice. It says that what a person allows themselves to be happy about and to tune into as a way of thinking, to make them happy is a matter of choice and the personal consent or choice of the individual. Clearly a thing making one person or another happy or not is not really a standard as to whether it is good or not. This can also be found in Corinthians concerning Love (Love as God or a Higher Spirit means it): New International Version Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. Something similar can also be found in Proverbs: Proverbs 2:14 http://biblehub.com/proverbs/2-14.htm New International Version who delight in doing wrong and rejoice in the perverseness of evil, New Living Translation They take pleasure in doing wrong, and they enjoy the twisted ways of evil. There are a good many other verses of this sort, one might check out the “Cross References” listed at the following link or do some searches themselves: http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-6.htm I think that more than a few people have had thoughts or ideas that made them happy, which then, they are not so happy about. I think that it’s more about what a person tunes into or whether they allow themselves to go with, - focus continuously on this/these trains of thinking. Or, whether they tell themselves, I don’t want to think this way, and find another train of thought or ideas to think by, perhaps regarding the same subject matter(s) and focus on it that way. An example here might be the difference between sex and “making love”. Realizing that making love is 1,000 times better and more might influence a person’s thinking here. {Also realizing that true love necessarily invites an eternal commitment and the eternally wanting to be together might also influence a person’s thinking.} Realizing that this also involves procreation and that one may not be in a positon to raise a child or another child may also influence this kind of thinking and where one allows their thought processes to go and be all about or be concentrated on.

I’ve seen a program on why France is prohibiting the wearing of the burka and even the hijab, particularly in the public schools. The statements were being made by a perty prominent French public official. He said that the government was being thanked and congratulated by these women and girls because they were being forced to wear these things by their own family members and close communities. Clothing is a perty personal thing, being forced to dress one way or another very much seems to be a violation of an individual’s rights. Being forced into this by one’s family or partner must be particularly painful and continuously stressful. A number of countries see immigration, as a way of helping and supporting people and giving them opportunities that they would not have otherwise. What being said has been happening however, is that certain groups then try to impose their ways, their culture and their laws on the existing long standing culture and national population. This happens even to the point of breaking federal and national law. Things like evicting women and refusing to give them their security deposits and refusing to make simple food sales; Their imported “law” being that they refuse to do business with a woman. This in turn jeopardizes her ability to obtain food and shelter and therefor her survival and her life. Until reading this post thread I haven’t heard of any common crimes being committed by people wearing burkas. I have heard of a suicide bombing committed by one in Iraq however. In some sense the burka, when worn by choice, is a privacy issue and centers around a woman’s right to privacy. Is a person’s right to privacy a security issue? Is Freedom a security issue? Peace and Freedom go hand in hand; They always have and always will. Taking a person’s freedom is a covert form of war. Is war a security issue? - I think so. The following is quoted from the pastor and clergy member Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) who wrote several versions of this speech http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_... First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me Niemöller was the leader of a group of German clergymen opposed to Hitler. In 1937 he was arrested and eventually confined in Sachsenhausen and Dachau. He was released in 1945 by the Allies. Eight long years in places that are clearly understood to be worse than death and worse than hell,… because no one was willing to speak out sooner or in good, sensible and real actual time.

I’ve had and run into a few ideas about opposites which are: In Christianity: that good and bad are opposites, but in terms of the word evil, there is an understanding that goes more like this: The word eve actually means life and the word evil actually means ill-life. So here we would have the opposites or two opposing ideas: life and ill-life. In Christianity good is often equated with life, and evil or ill-life is often equated with death, as opposed to physical life and death on their own, or as understood in common usage. In Art: That pretty is the opposite of ugly but for beauty there is no opposite. Also in art that certain pairs of colors are considered both opposite and complementary. Some examples here are red and green, blue and orange and yellow and green. In terms of Gender: I’ve never quite gotten this, that people are thought of as being divided into two “opposite” genders. It seems to me that we all have: two arms, two legs, two hands and feet, ten fingers, ten toes one torso, a neck, one head, two ears, one nose, two eyes, one heart, one liver, one brain and so on and so forth. This doesn’t actually spell out opposites to me. I think we might be much better off calling each other complimentary as in colors instead of opposites. Thanks for reading

Focusing on the original post question… I don’t think that I need a religious belief system, in fact most religious belief systems if feel I can do without. I do feel like I need spirituality and some sense of light and joy and freedom in my life. Without this, life is just too negative and sometimes even too hard to bear. I’m wondering if it might be important that with spirituality, or my understanding of the word spirituality, that there is no “system”. It’s more about just putting into action or practice certain ideas or way of looking at things. By action or practice I mean actually stepping or living in a certain mind set or outlook, or even more so; living in a kind of positive, caring, intelligent energy, that I for not having a better word would call God.

romansh I know your last post #11 wasn’t addressed to me but you picked up on some ideas that I’ve had some thoughts on; Quoted from your post: “The original sin is not a rebellion against god, but starting to think in terms of good and evil, ie Tasting the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I would argue Genesis 3 is relatively clear that we should not think in terms of good and evil.” I’ve been thinking of lately, that perhaps we, or I, should just be thinking in terms of what is good – skip the evil, that is don’t focus on it and just get on with what’s good. Paul of T. is quoted as saying, “be innocent of what is evil, but wise in what is good.” I recall Jesus speaking about “where these thing neither happen, neither do they come to mind,” meaning bad or evil things. He’s referring to heaven here or the new reality that Christians are entering into, not so much an idea of a heaven that one reaches after death. I find that the more I can tune into God and just let God do the driving, or guiding, so to speak, the more this seems to be my reality or personal picture of things. It’s like there is no evil or bad stuff, there’s just little me going along and seeing the light, joy, wonder and promise in everything. Just some thoughts to share. E.

I’ve been wanting to get back to the full scope of the ideas brought up in this threads opening post. However since the subject’s got introduced, I thought I’d add an extra two cents into the one part of the Sermon on the Mount and Burklo’s commentary on it that has been focused on here. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. Is it me or does anyone else think this is a bit much? Is this really Christ talking here,… I’ve got to wonder what the hyper-literalists do with these passages. I got to figure that they can’t be meant literally. I’m reminded of a sermon I once saw on TV. It was being given by one of them big black preachers that just says what he’s got to say with no if ands or buts about it. He was preaching about David and Bathsheba, and more so he seemed to be talking about some of his parishioners. His speech went something like this: “If you know you have problems with this sort of thing,… I you know this is something you don’t manage too well,… What are you doing up on the roof in a city that has no indoor plumbing,.!...” This I can kind of understand, cutting off or gouging out body parts, not so much. Anyways I hope we can get back to the whole set of ideas introduced by the opening post, this one part being focused on enough.

I think I’m here to be more in tune with God, and also to understand God better. I try to make my first two priorities the ones that are given in the NT. They are perty simple and perhaps a bit old fashioned: To put God first and one’s good neighbor and one’s self second. I’ve got to say that these are a given and not something I came up with myself, which just about anyone familiar with Christianity and the NT can plainly see. I think at some point I felt I needed someone’s advice besides my own, and at about that time I came on to these passages. I figured maybe this judgment or thinking was better than what I could come up with on my own, and also that a person/me could only go so wrong in making them their first two and top priorities. I don’t know if I really care if I’m right all the time, but being wrong some or more especially all or most of the time I can do quite well without.