Elen1107

Thanks, it's actually good to know that I'm not the only one that finds this to be a challenge. I find that even putting "experiences" into words to be a challenge, and that it's difficult to articulate what I'm really feeling or trying to say. I was logged on when your comment first came in, but this forum's software only allows me so many comments in a 24 hr. period, so I went and looked up Thomas á Kempis. It's too soon for me to have many thoughts on his writings and ideas. One thing kinda did strike me however, the publication that he is mostly known for is called, 'The Imitation of Christ'. This may all be very sweet and good and all that, but it kind of made me step back a bit. I've never thought I could "imitate Christ" any more than I could "imitate" Pavarotti singing on stage. It's not that I don't appreciate Christ or Pavarotti , it's just that ... let's be realistic here. All I can do is be myself, (or my true self) in Christ. I don't actually get to be like Christ, and I don't know if I'd want to be considering all the trouble he seems to have had. I did however find a few quotes of his that I do kind of like: "If thou wilt receive profit, read with humility, simplicity, and faith, and seek not at any time the fame of being learned." "At the Day of Judgement we shall not be asked what we have read, but what we have done." — The Imitation of Christ, Book I, ch. 3 I haven't had time to really look up and research Meister Eckhart either. But thanks for the names and the references. They may well prove valuable in the future. Thanks

This isn't really Christian, but to me it is. I'm not really into the Grateful Dead, but this song really gets to me.

I agree with you here too. It also helps me get through all the ordinary things that I have to do in the course of a day, as well as some real and great spiritual moments. It's like being inside Christ and his Love as well as him in me sometimes. There's a real inner stillness that sometimes comes with this. Can't say I know how to explain it real good

Great article. The video in the OP is also great too.

I myself kind of don't do the "blood atonement" part. I feel pretty good about my faith and inspiration in Christ all the same. Maybe at sometime in the future I'll change my thinking on this, who knows. There are a few parts of 'traditional Christianity' that I just don't think about or focus on at all. This is one of them, hell and original sin are two others. Sorry, but I just feel better and think a lot better if I just don't go there.

I agree with a lot of what you've said here. It's when we get into including ideas that are un-inclusive in order to be inclusive that one gets into a kind of mind bender or mental knot. I myself don't know quite how to deal with it at this point. Maybe I, or we, will figure things out better as we go along and study or investigate the situations and questions. Thanks

I checked out Larry Hurtado on the internet. Do you know which book or publication the ideas that you mentioned are published in? You are saying that these people "knew" Jesus, the next question becomes how well and what constitutes "knowing" him. Also, how much time did Jesus actually spend in Jerusalem and how much time was he traveling and spending else where? There are people who are recorded as traveling with Jesus besides the 12 apostles, how well did they each get to know him and actually witness and hear what he said. It seems to me that there were far and away more people who just saw him once, and or heard him once, "got the faith", and just took things from there without the help of Jesus or one of the apostles. There's all the people at the Sermon on the Mount, there's all the folks along the shores of the sea of Galilee, there's the people who saw and heard him just once when he was teaching in the Temple and synagogues. There are people who just saw him either from near or afar in the streets and in the country. This is just during his ministry. After his "passing" there are all the people who just "got the faith" and took things on inspiration and with a kind of revelation that the faith opens people up to. You seem to get a lot of inspiration from a number of the books that you read. I get this too, from reading or even from a musical rift, or a piece of art or a landscape. What I'm talking about is something like that, except without the book or music or art or scenery. It's a tuning in to the Spirit of Christ directly, through one's own spirit or intuitions or guts or inner or mental understanding. One doesn't need to be reading or using something else to do it, & it can actually happen all or most of the time if one is willing to work on it, and have/use God's help. I don't know how else to put this. Perhaps this is a rather poor or imbalanced attempt on my part, but it's the best I can do and the best that I can explain things right now. Thanks for reading Again.

It's good to hear that one can come through the hippie experience and come out with some good things and good ideas and still go beyond that and get beyond and past the down side of the hippie movement. Myself, I was a hippie-wanna-be from the ages of like 13 to 16. I liked all the peace and love and some of the good music that was all about these things. However it also had it's downside, with a lot of nasty, heavy drugs and a lot of really messed up relationships. You are saying that you lied to yourself for 47 years. I think it is awfully brave of you to admit that here on a public forum, & with people that you don't really know. But can I ask, how does one do that and what happened? It sound awfully painful and totally disorientating and confusing. If you don't want to communicate about it, that's ok. Just ignore my question. . . still I can't help but wonder what happened. Thanks

Interestingly enough, this has been pretty much how I have been 'doing' Christianity myself for the past two or three years. Putting it into words however, is another matter altogether and completely. I guess you could say that I am "tuning in" to the Spirit of Christ and God and the Holy Spirit, as I understand them, and as best I can. It is actually working rather well for me, better than just reading books or the bible was, but this is just my personal experience and other people might get more inspiration from reading or something else. If one reads the New Testament from what one might call a step-back or an arms length perspective, one can see that this is what many if not all of the first Christians, outside of the 12 apostles, were doing. They didn't have "the words of Christ", they probably had just seen him once, or had just heard him talk once, or had only heard about him from someone else and hadn't seen or heard him themselves at all. They also didn't have what we now call the New Testament. It's evident from the Gospels and Acts that these books were written after all the events in them had already taken place, so no one mentioned in them could have had a copy of them, because they didn't exist yet. The Christian Epistles/Letters were also all written after the "earthly life" and ministry of Christ. What ever they are or are not, they do seem to be a window into what at least what some Christians were doing and thinking round about the times that they were written. Here again, we get people gathering and just getting the Spirit of Christ, God and or the Holy Spirit, and sharing their ideas, faith and inspiration. This also just happens on the individual level, one person just 'gets the faith' or the spirit and goes off rejoicing or has some kind of spiritual message or insight to convey and say. Everything in the first centuries of Christianity seems to be about people "getting the faith" or "getting the spirit" and learning and growing from there "in the spirit" or "in Christ". They weren't studying the bible or the New Testament, like we do today. They didn't have a "New Testament", so they couldn't have been. But they were doing something, and having real spiritual experiences, something one might call finding enlightenment, and or growing in Christ and in their spirituality through the spirit itself, and not through some particular set of documents or writings. This was going on so much in the first 3 1/2 centuries of Christianity, before any of the New Testament was compiled or canonized, that when Constantine conquered and entered Rome, he decided it would be the best or most favored religion to sponsor and support and to build his empire around and to use hold the empire together. There had to be something real happening for him to decide to do that. Thanks for reading all this, I didn't mean to make it so long. I totally agree with you,... & you're welcome

I find it difficult to find the right words concerning the subject of "judgment" myself. Like you say, sometimes it can be the right thing and sometimes it can be the wrong thing to be doing, and very much so, considering different circumstances. Good for you in your being able to face and step up to your "battle with addiction". I'm sure you will find that you have "climbed a mountain" or two at a certain point in this great and brave endeavor. Maybe I shouldn't be saying this, but I sometimes feel like one can get "high on God" or on faith, and that this can sometimes fill in where other things, like substances, leave off and can also be very harmful. Good Luck to you, and forever on this! I agree and sympathize with you completely. Myself, I have ended up doing my spirituality very much on my own and independently. It isn't easy, but it can be done, and I myself am ok with it, though at some point I might be looking for more face to face contact with people concerning this. I have attended a number of Unitarian churches myself. They vary a lot even within the same state or general area. I'd finally found one that I really liked, when I had to move, and now can no longer go there. My sister has done Unitarianism for like decades, and says she really loves it. You say that you are reading the KJV from cover to cover. You might find that many Progressive Christians tend to be rather unfundamentalistic with regards to the bible. That is that they don't always find the bible to be "the whole word of God and nothing but the word of God", which is not to say that they don't find some of what, or even a good deal of what, they would call "the word of God" or "truth" in the bible. There are many books and scholarly debates on this subject as well as just as many regular folks talking about and debating it. If you find a bible verse or two that stump you, or even that you flat out disagree with, you are likely to find a sympathetic ear and even some agreement among Progressive Christians, and possibly even find a few of them in this PC forum. Good Luck with all you are trying to achieve and all the mountains you are trying to climb! Welcome Again!

One can also ask the 'Spirit of Christ' inside oneself, or that one is in touch with oneself. What does this have to say or teach one? Today, at least where I live, adultery isn't illegal, and isn't grounds for criminal prosecution at all, much less stoning to death. It is however grounds for divorce. In the past, who was at fault in a divorce was more of a big issue. Today that is not so much the case. I've been looking for the video(s) where I saw Spong talking on the subject, but haven't found it yet. He did write a book on the 4th Gospel, the Gospel of John. I'm thinking that it might be somehow tied in with the videos related to that. I can really appreciate what you are saying about people's incredible work and scholarship. I myself also can really appreciate the comments of many regular and simple people. Sometimes the greatest of insights can come from the most regular and common place of all people. The G. of John says he was "writing". I've heard people say that Jesus was writing down the sins of the people who were doing the accusing, but that's not in the actual text. It was "The teachers of the Law and the Pharisees" that were doing the accusing, and it was in front of a good number of people that Jesus was teaching at the Temple in Jerusalem. This could be why and how it became part of the Christian tradition, because so many people saw it in the first place. I don't know. There's this footnote on the Bible Gateway that I am reading: Footnotes: John 8:11 Many manuscripts and early translations do not have this passage (8.1-11); others have it after Jn 21.24; others have it after Lk 21.38; one manuscript has it after Jn 7.36. Apparently it was also in the Gospel of Luke at one time and in some manuscripts. Here's the Gateway link, just incase you are interested: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8%3A1-11&version=GNT

When I've seen J.S. Spong talking about this, I think it was in a few of his YouTube presentations or lectures, that's if memory serves. It may also be in one of his more recent books or writings. When it comes to general discussions, basically it comes down to what each individual thinks on the subject, that is, does one think that this could be part of the original Christian oral tradition and could it be something that Jesus actually said and did. This also gets talked about concerning some of the things in the Gospel of Thomas and some of the other early Christian writings. Were they part of the original Christian traditions and were they things that Jesus actually said? People are talking and communicating about these things quite often enough. I myself am wondering if the first thing that Jesus, or someone, would of said is, "Where is the woman that was also involved in this act?" Perhaps that was one of the things that Jesus wrote in the sand. But as you say things would have probably turned out the same way just the same.

I understand what you are saying about things being cultural. At the same time I myself think there are things such as “universal truths” and that there is sometimes a real right and wrong to somethings. Yeah, this would mean that I am saying that there is something “wrong” with a society that thinks something like slavery or “religious beheadings” is ok. Would I say it to them just like that? I don’t know, maybe it depends on the circumstances.

Well, maybe I do feel like I have less faith than she does, though I don't ness feel like my faith "is less" than hers,... though it might be. I too had a similar experience when we went to my Aunt's house each year for Thanksgiving dinner. They were in the habit/tradition of saying 'thanks' for each meal before they/we ate. My father/parents were much more of the feeling that "we did this", we/my parents worked 40 hours and more to get this/these meals and this "bounty" and we deserve like at least half the thanks and credit. I don't know if I myself really believe that we humans actually "create" or "co-create" anything. I guess it depends on how the word is used. One could say that they "created" a work of art, and this is very common word usage in our or at least my society. People do say they "created" a baby,... but do they/we really? We certainly didn't create the creation process, but still that phrase is not totally uncommon. I've at times felt like I couldn't so much as "create" a blade of grass. At the same time I could say that I'm creating a sentence right here and now as I write. It's an interesting subject,... and I'm thinking that it depends on how the word is used and in which/what contexts. Maybe it's something we can get more into as time goes on, or even on another thread. Thanks for this comment and I do see what you are saying here. I myself do tend to feel that our "karma" or the quality of our inner energy can effect our health and things like if we get cancer and/or how well we cope with it if we do. Does it effect our safety with regards to things like fires and accidents? I myself kind of think so, but how much or in which cases I'm not sure. I'm certainly not going to be careless with fire or a careless driver or encourage others to do so, for any reason whatsoever. One thing I will say about this woman is that she would say things like, "the letting out of blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sin", and she and her family seemed really tough and even extreme in their practice of corporal punishment, especially on the smallest of her grandchildren, who though not living with her, she did take care of often. I myself might well disagree with corporal punishment entirely, and think there are far better ways of teaching and even disciplining children, though they do take more time, more thought and quite probably more energy and internal patience and balance. I myself have never understood the "letting out of blood" thing for the "forgiveness of sin", and quite possibly never will. I consider myself "saved", (if one chooses to use that word) by Jesus's life and spirit and teachings and light, not by his death on the cross, (that's if that did actually happen. I myself don't know what I really think or feel on this particular subject, and probably am some long ways off from figuring out what I do or will ultimately think, that's if I am ever able to figure it out or "know for sure". I do however believe he is eternal and does and is living forever, and that he is far more than just a prophet. How and when this actually happened is another subject that we, or I, may never know or be totally privy to the answer to ).

I once encountered someone who was into something called EST. Where I don't know anything about the rest of it, it actually seemed kind of "funny" to me,... they have one practice that I found interesting. This person told me that if one of their beliefs and practices was to give to others and to things like charities and those in need, even if they themselves didn't have too much. She said that somehow, by the powers that be, or by karma or something like that, that one ends up getting more back in time and in the long and even short run of things. I myself tried it for a while, and it did actually seem to be the case, though not in any real big or dramatic way. Am I wrong, or even doing myself a disservice by being more self protective and even "stingy" at this point in my life? Like I've said earlier, maybe it's something that I need to think over a few more times, and maybe can come to a better understanding on the subject. I have found myself having an issue with giving more to other people who I know dang well have or are making more than myself. Am I wrong in this, and am I nit-picking or something? It's something I need to address within myself. * * * * On a different subject: I'd like to apologize to people if I am not getting back to their comments and quotes that are addressed to me. Between my own schedule and need to get things done, and this forum's software, which only allows me so many comments when I do have the time,... I'm finding it rather if not very difficult to do. I'm even including this statement in with another comment, just so I don't use up my number of comments too quickly. Thanks everyone for your patience and understanding,... and Thanks for reading this. * * * *

I myself don't know. She is French Catholic, with a heritage in the Catholic tradition that goes back something like 1,500 years. She used to be a very close neighbor of mine, we lived in the same building. She herself was living at or below the poverty line, and sharing a one bedroom apartment with her daughter, who was working fulltime, and her daughters two teenage sons, (who ate, and needed to eat, a lot). Still she kept giving and giving and giving. It was unreal how much she'd give when she, and her own, actually had so little. Today, she is living in her own house on her own land, that she and her daughter managed to buy together. The "boys" each have their own bedrooms as do grandma and mom. Though the house is not large, it is not horribly small either, and she finally has some real security for her old age. They even have a very nice rear deck on the house and a nice bit of a yard. Myself, I can't say her faith is or was "wrong". I can say that I myself can't have or maintain that kind or level of faith in myself, when everything visible and "practical" around me tells me different, and that it's even a stupid and foolish thing to do. No, I will not give away my last old age dollar because someone needs it now, when I am sure I am going to need it later. Am I right or is she? … I don't know. Thing is she's got the rest of her life all sowed up for her with some real security and peace of mind, and that people would be hard put to take away from her. Myself, I'm still living in a one bedroom apartment, with less than half of the real life security that she has. We are about the same age. Can't help but wonder if she is doing something right and I am doing something wrong. I think I will have to think that one through a few more times. Thanks for reading

Got to ask, have you met him in person? I like nerds too. I'm in agreement with you here and with your last sentence of your first paragraph. (for some reason the quote box wouldn't divide between sentences, just paragraphs).

Both. I've seen it in J. S. Spong's talks and lectures. I follow him a bit. It also comes up in general discussions. I've got to wonder what would have happened if it was just the man who was "caught in the act of adultery", who was brought forward and accused. & what would have happened then. ...

Yes, I agree with you here. It also doesn't mean he was an absolutely perfect person. . . Though being "The man who would not be king", especially in that day and age, I think really does say something 'big' about the person.

Yes, thanks for your help regarding this 🙂

Just wanted to say that I'm one of those Christians that finds that Bart Ehrman is one of those writers and scholars that really and honestly has enhanced and increased my faith. I don't know how many of us there are at this point, but I know I am not the only one. Don't agree with everything he says, ( guess that goes without saying), but there's enough that he says that I either agree with, or find enlightening, or both, that I can really appreciate and celebrate the fact that I've found his teaching and works. Don't really feel like talking/writing about hell right now. . . . . maybe later.

There is actually some scholarly debate going on about this subject and these verses. Though it is true that the verses are not in the first textual witness we have of the gospel of John, these are still the first textual witness that we have, and not the first ones that ever existed. Also there is some real mention and debate that they were part of the original oral traditions about Jesus, just like much of everything else in the canonized New Testament, and that it could have just as well been something that Jesus said and did. Just how and why they got left out, or left out and then replaced, is another question. . As another note: Just because George Washington didn't cut down a cherry tree, didn't really sleep everywhere people said he slept, and probably didn't end up in a place in heaven exactly like the painting in the Capital Rotunda depicts and discribes him,... … Doesn't mean he didn't exist or that he wasn't our first President.

I can't help but think of harm that happens inside families. One can say that this just effects the family or the individual in the family, but I myself don't really think so. It ends up spilling out into the community, and into the next generation(s). Harm to one is harm to all, and in a certain sense, 'the individual is the community'. . . The rights of the individual are the rights of the community, and if people do something or somethings to one person or group of people, they are inevitably going to end up doing it to other people, and more and more people, and then it ends up spilling over into the community and it affects the whole community and all of life and living in general . . . . . ? . . . . . . (yeah, I guess I really think this might be the case and the way of things). This is really interesting. Do the "chemicals in our brains" effect the way we think, or does the way we think effect the "chemicals in our brains"? . . . Or is it both?..Or is it "something else" … and is this God/Higher Power/ Higher Presence, or is it me? . . . and which is happening when and under what circumstances? . . (could get into this more, but like you say, "plenty can" and it's a question people have probably been asking a for a long time,... could we be ready to answer the question now? . . . don't know). Yeah, I do know what you are saying here. I definitely know what you are saying here. I do know one person who has said to me that she would give another her last pair of shoes, or coat, or something else of necessity, even if she didn't 'know' that she had a way of getting another one. She said that she just 'knows' that God would find a way of providing her with another one. Myself, I don't have this kind of faith or sense of overall security. The faith of "the lilies of the fields" or "of a fisherman" is hard to come by, and even harder to maintain. I'm not too good at volunteering to "cease to exist" myself, and perhaps like yourself, don't feel like I should be expected or asked to do this sort of thing. Thanks, this has really helped me in writing this post. Thanks and Thanks for reading.

This is a tricky subject, I guess it always has been. One kind of gets into a corner where one feels that another person or people's beliefs really are harming other people, and sometimes in a big way too. Beliefs are the kind of thing that can spread, (if we let them). It's something I've been like at least half thinking about a good deal lately, but I don't know if I'm ready to articulate the thoughts and put them into words. Perhaps in the next month or so I'll be able to. It calls to mind an argument I once witnessed between a Catholic and a Lutheran. It was quite "heated" and they both were like 'I'm right and you're wrong, I have the truth and you don't'. I came down with a simple statement about the American 1st Amendment and religious freedom. They were both quite happy with and in agreement with this, and the argument stopped and everyone was friends again. Thing is I can remember getting in an argumentative attitude myself with Christian fundamentalists, (perhaps in a way like J. S. Spong does on this/these subjects. He has been kind of a 'mentor' for me on this sort of thing). Sometimes I really do believe that believing and saying that God, the 'One True God', requires an innocent, human, blood, life and death sacrifice in order to forgive human sin is a really harmful concept and is a false, and slanderous, and defamatory, and wrong depiction of God. (I could get more into this, but perhaps at another time). Now when it comes to things like; religious cannibalism, beheadings, child sacrifice, child marriage or x with children of any kind, death for apostasy or religious criticism, etc. ... There have been times that I've actually thought about throwing our 1st Amendment right out the window, which in actuality I am not at all ready to do. One could say, ok, you can worship your 'cannibal god', but you can't actually practice cannibalism. . . But this doesn't really set right with me either. Thing is, if one spreads this belief or anyone of these beliefs, the point comes in time where these things start spilling over into actions. If people start yammering on about how 'we believe in slavery, but don't actually practice slavery', the point can soo much more easily come where slavery again becomes a practice, even world wide practice. Seems to me this is true for all these negative practices and idologies. Thanks for reading

Tea,... Earl Grey hot .. anyone ?