Elen1107

This includes I suppose the "action" of disagreeing with and having a different opinion from someone, in a nice and polite and considerate and loving way. ? . It's something that I myself am thinking we could all work on a bit more, even here on this forum/website. 🙂 ... just saying ... 🙂 ... & myself included I'm sure. . . I've got to say that the term "Man Becoming God" kind of frightens me. At the same time, I do kind of get it. It's a big topic and again, it's possibly for another thread. Your last sentence there, which I'll quote again: "God calls, challenges and judges us in and through the words spoken to us from the beginning and throughout life (by Mother, Father and others) and loves us in and through the love given/gifted by others which gives us the courage (empowers/enables us) to respond to the word and grow." I myself would say that God also calls and speaks to us through a kind of silence and inner and outer light, and through leaving a mental, psychological, spiritual door open to us,... this being different it coming through others, including parents, friends, acquaintances and relatives. I guess I'm also saying that God can reach us and "relate" to us directly with out there being an intermediary person, book, or object or other thing. Thanks again for reading

Yeah, but first do no harm. If people really can't get along or be on the same page, the least they can do is leave each other alone, this sometimes in and of itself can be a good thing. The term "prevenient grace" is new to me, so I looked it up. There's a lot on the subject and what it means. Myself it will take sometime before I understand what it means and how different people use the term. Thanks for posting it and introducing me to the term, it looks really interesting. & yes, John Wesley did use the term Here's a link to my bing-search for anyone who is interested: https://www.bing.com/search?q=prevenient+grace&form=ANNTH1&refig=f174d755d2714c979c7e3a9ca6561e31&sp=1&qs=LS&pq=prevenient+&sk=PRES1&sc=8-11&cvid=f174d755d2714c979c7e3a9ca6561e31

I'm thinking that you are further ahead of me on this track of understanding. I grew up with a lot of "we said so"'s as the only reason for doing somethings, with none of the good reasons mentioned whatsoever, so words like obligation and responsibility don't click too well for me. This is perhaps a topic for another discussion. Your last sentence there is well said. ----------------------------------- If folks don't see or believe what I've said about New York in my last post, take a good thoughtful look at this. At 2:23 in the previous video that I posted, it shows where New York was at in relation to the virus on April 22nd, 2020. 1:22 in this video shows where New York is at this week. I so much don't want to see the whole country to go through what New York went through in the past 5 months. Please take a look and share it if you can and think it's worthwhile. Thanks

I like what you've said and like what you've said in particular about, "to grow into ourselves". I've been into 'true self' philosophy for along time, even before I became a believer and a believer in JC. Perhaps it is one of the things that brought me to Him/Them. I've found the video where the NY Governor quoted that quote. It's at 25:50 in the video. Right now I'm wishing that more people could see what New York went through and how NY stopped the spread, bent the curve and saved many, many lives. It's breaking my heart what this country is going through. I'm hoping that people can see that there is a clean and solid way out of this. It's been done, and it's been done in New York.

Thanks for saying so, and thanks for being a person who can appreciate the reality of working something out. I'm thinking that for myself it feels more like God is leaving the way or even sky open for me, rather than being persuasive. I feel like E, God, even understands where I'm at and what I'm going through. (perhaps I should look at Em as being a really good and refined example in patience, with understanding in this). (don't mean to be being overly presumptuous or vain in saying that I know and know for sure the mind of God, or this little piece of the mind of God, it just really feels that way to me and it's the best I can figure with my perceptions of this sort of thing and with where I'm at in my head and thinking). Your last sentence reminds me of a quote made by the New York Governor during one of his Corona virus briefings, on April 22nd of this year. He was quoting from a book by Edith Hamilton and Edward Gibbon called "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire': "When the freedom they wished for most was the freedom from responsibility, then [they] ceased to be free" I wish I could send you the screen shot that I took of him presenting the quote, but this forum only allows me .02MB files and the file is bigger than that. I've sent it to some else recently, so it's pretty close to the front of my mind and thinking nower days. Well, here's where I get tangled up. Yes there are "responsibilities" and obligations,... But I myself feel a lot better when I can do things from a glad heart and an open mind and a happy singing glad spirit, rather from a sense of responsibility, or obligation, or because something or someone says so, or whatever. Then I have the obligation or responsibility to get myself in a space where I have a glad heart, open spirit, etc. 🙂 It feels a bit like there's no end to this 🙂 I tend to futz over details, but that's me, and sometimes I really do feel that it's important and something that I do need to do. Thanks for reading again

Went and looked up Ben Harper. Do you know the title of the song? I'd like to hear/get the lyrics to the whole thing. Thanks For me, in my lifetime, the question has been what is really doing "no harm" either to myself or to others. Back somewhat close to 4 decades ago, I came to a point in my life, where I felt like some of the attitudes that I had towards life, that I truly thought were doing "no harm", maybe really were doing some kind of harm, perhaps mostly to myself, but also to others, if for no other reason than that I was being a not so good example. I was right at that age when one steps from being a young person to being an example or a role model, if for no other reason than by virtue of my age. Sorry about that long sentence there. There is a verse or two in the NT that pretty much states that God favors what people do and that they are kind more than that they sing Es praises or even really "know" or are aware of Em. It's one of my most loved and favorite ideas from the NT. The verses that you've posted have brought that outlook and thought to mind for me. Thanks . . . & Thanks again for reading.

This is the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=QZXJjg5_E70&feature=emb_logo

I'm thinking that I might agree with Joe Biden on this subject, that some of these statues of people who really fought to maintain slavery should moved to a museum or something. I think that I myself might be offended by them if I had to walk past them every day on my way to school or work or something, & I myself don't have any ancestry that was in bondage that I know of, (though I do have some ancestors that were servants, which was much more like slavery than people nower days realize). The thing is how far do we take this sort of thing? Slavery has existed in many cultures on most contents since before written history. There are prophets and patriarchs that have "owned" people. King Solomon and Mohamad "owned" people and never set them free during their lifetimes. Do we rip down all the churches and mosques and temples that talk about and refer to these people? Do we rip down Michelangelo's statue of David in the Louvre? There are somethings that stand as art, whether people like that person or not. Just some thoughts. Thanks for reading

I'm looking at your last comment box and wondering why it comes up as if you said what I said. It says: On 7/19/2020 at 7:45 PM, thormas said: I'm also thinking that God really wants us to come to Em through consent and choice, not through some forced or mandatory kind of behavior. Perhaps the only way we can fully realize this and be aware that it is truly and fully our own choice is if we ourselves do a lot of knocking and seeking. That's clearly my comment. Funny and interesting 🙂 ---------------------------- Concerning the idea that you mention about God being, or not being, "all powerful". I've run into this/these concepts myself a good deal in the past decade or so. I myself have come to the conclusion, that at least in terms of eternity, (that is in terms of eternal life and our entering into eternity), God Is all powerful. Why bad things happen to good people and visa versa, and why bad things happen at all, is another matter. What I've been thinking lately, is that perhaps we humans have been given so much influence on this earth, (& perhaps our moon) that perhaps there are things that we are doing that are causing some bad things to happen, and it may be on us and up to us more than we really realize. I still don't know what I think on this, and it's still something that I'm working on, but it is something that I have been thinking about. ------------------------------- Where you mention that God's power is "persuasive", I'm thinking that I myself might choose to use a different word. My relationship with God has sometimes felt something like this: I'm like, I'm starving, I'm dying of thirst God's like (or at least seems to be like), Here's a glass of water I'm like I really want that glass of water, and it really, really looks good,... but I'm like, where's that string attached, or where's the hook, line and sinker that goes along with that glass of water. . . . Perhaps this sort of explains why I myself wouldn't use the word "persuasive". - I've been walking around that glass of water for sometime now and haven't dared to take a sip. - Funny coincidence, I have a glass of water and a glass of tea sitting on my table here as I'm writing this. I've just chosen to drink some of the water. I generally hate water and think it's just on the table because I needed to take some vitamins earlier. Ha-ha, now I've finished the whole cup of H2O. 🙂 I hope you think this is all kind of funny and don't think I'm too foolish. I'm obviously working something out for myself here. Thanks again for reading all this. I'm thinking I might be a bit concerned about running out of comments again so I might be writing too much. Thanks again.

I've had to look up the first two theo/thinkers that you mention. Marcus Borg I'm familiar with. I'm afraid that for myself, even though I do feel M.B. to quite an eloquent and intelligent speaker, at times he does get too soapy for me as well. Perhaps the problem is me, or that I'm just not familiar with that kind of language. I found a video of John Macquarie, where he said that people in the British Isles are "still fighting the Battle of the Boyne" religiously if not in other ways. I couldn't help but think, as an American, that in terms of religious ideas and Christian religious freedom,... both sides have won - and both sides should get a medal or statue or something. Perhaps one statue that declares both sides and both ideologies to be winners, :-) Apologies that I couldn't get back to your last comment sooner. The forum limits the number of comments I can make in 24 hours and I had reached my limit. Thanks

I agree with you that; "The trick perhaps is to realize that our words are never conclusive, that we never fully capture 'truth.'" It's just the way it is and we have to deal with it and work with it and just try to do our best in using words. I also agree with you that, "it is what we do". We will keep trying to capture the meaning of God and the meaning of life in words. How possible it is and how successful we are is another matter, sometimes another matter altogether. I myself find a lot of the traditional wording and word usage used for God and Christ ratter soapy and gooey. I'm constantly trying to find more intelligent and enlightening words to express God and Christ. Again, how successful I can be in this is another matter. Thanks for reading again

Thanks 🙂 I don't get too many complements, so Thank You

If this is the true definition of the words, I'd say that I believe in both. & also think that God is more than that as well. I myself think that God has a kind of consciousness & more. I'm thinking that here lies the problem. Putting God or Christ into words may be impossible. One can only experience them and that experience too is beyond words.

I myself don't really know what I think about this subject. In my own life I feel like I've been really actively searching and seeking. How much of this that has really done any good is another question. Often I feel like I need to "let go and let God". It may be a cliché expression, but sometimes even clichés can have real meaning. On the other hand the quote from Jesus in the NT comes to mind that goes pretty much like: "seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you". Maybe it's both aspects and ideas that are really happening? I'm also thinking that God really wants us to come to Em through consent and choice, not through some forced or mandatory kind of behavior. Perhaps the only way we can fully realize this and be aware that it is truly and fully our own choice is if we ourselves do a lot of knocking and seeking. Thanks for reading

It depends on what one means by "pantheism". I've gone and looked it up: pantheism [ˈpanTHēˌizəm] NOUN pantheism (noun) a doctrine which identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God. worship that admits or tolerates all gods. The first definition here reminds me of one of the statements in the Pauline letters, that we "see God reflected in his/es creation". I think that I would at least in good part agree with it. The second definition is different, and I can see how one would see it as being "at odds" with most Christian ideology. I've often wondered if the many Hindu or Indian gods are manifestations or parts or smaller parts of what Christians understand to be "the One God". Though some of them might have a bit of (dare I say) the devil in them. 🙂 (don't mean to be offensive here) I don't know, I'm just sharing my ideas and insights on the subject(s).

Nothing like that cup of tea 🙂 ! I agree it needs to be "something that is Real" and something that rings really true. I think we can discern it and know it when something "rings true" or even partially true. It depends on the purity or intensity of the "ring". Of course it should be about what is good and what benefits humanity, but even here people have different ideas and opinions. I've walked some ideas around the block for as much as two years, some as much as 20. Getting to what is true and right is the important thing.

It may be "easier", but it is far less enjoyable, rewarding and insightful Thanks for your comment 🙂

Hi. I got your answer to my question through the message function in this forum. Maybe I'll look up the book online or something. I'll let you know if I find anyone who might be interested in the group.

This looks like it would be too much of a fixed schedule for myself, but good luck with the group. One of the reasons I post in this forum is because one can do it when one has the time and opportunity. What book will you be working from, if I can ask?

Welcome to this group. It looks like it will be interesting to hear many of your ideas and insights. Welcome

I've been looking at and asking myself the question; What is the "word of God" for sometime now. I think I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the word or the ways of God are those ideas and insights, thoughts and notions that are good and healthy, positively intelligent and spiritually and physically beneficial to humanity as well as this earth and creation. These ideas can be on the back of a box of teabags or in a major book or document or in a folk song or in one of the books that people have declared to be "holy". They can come from a 5 year old or a 90 year old, or from a person of any gender or background . What we need to do as people is fine tune, even hone, our discretion and discernment in deciding, each for oneself, which ideas are good and are at one with God.

I think that there is something positive about letting the PC movement define itself slowly and naturally and in time. Perhaps one of the better ways to define it to others is to describe the wide range of ideas and outlooks that are under it's currently wide umbrella.

The person that always "gets" me on this topic is George Washington. Yes he "owned" people. Yes this is terrible and horrible. At the same time, he is "The man who would not be king". Looking at this from today's perspective and with a legacy and/or heritage of 250 years of democracy one might feel like; yeah well... so what. But try to see what it meant at the time. That was all there was; the divine right of kings, pharos, emperors, czars, what have you. To me it seems like it was a real and big thing that G.W. did that and that it does say something about the man. Thanks for reading

Thanks, Joseph 😃😄 I went and looked up this on Ben Franklin How does this all work for one who has changed and "turned the corner" so to speak? http://www.benjamin-franklin-history.org/slavery-abolition-society/

I myself haven't found Progressive Christianity with a capital P all that specific in it's theology. I've found that among people who are part of Progressive Christianity (cap P) there is a wide variety of ideas and outlooks. I think it's great that they/we can all come together even with all our differences an unique ideas, but as far as "P"rogressive Christianity is concerned, I don't find it to be too tightly or definitely defined. Thanks for your answer/reply