Elen1107

Which version of the 10 Commandments? There are three of them I have an article on the subject. The following are quotes from that article: "Then there is the very salient question of what the commandments do not say. Is it too modern to notice that there is nothing about the protection of children from cruelty, nothing about rape, nothing about slavery, and nothing about genocide?" "There are three versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible. Two of them are very similar, Exodus 20:2-Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-Deuteronomy 5:21 The third version, in Exodus 34:12-Exodus 34:26 is radically different, and is the only one which the Bible refers to as "the Ten Commandments" " This is Exodus 34. The only version that the bible refers to as "the Ten Commandments" Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. Do not make any idols. Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt. The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed. Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest, you must rest. Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year. Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast and do not let any of the sacrifices from the Passover Festival remain until morning. Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God. "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk." https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#:~:text=There%20are%20three%20versions%20of%20the%20Ten%20Commandments,the%20Bible%20refers%20to%20as%20%22the%20Ten%20Commandments%22.

There's a book being supported here on the PC website called, 'The Spiritual Danger of Donald Trump'. It looks like it might be a good and interesting read. https://progressivechristianity.org/resources/the-spiritual-danger-of-donald-trump/

Fact check Some people will say anything about anyone or any group of people if they think it will get them what they want. (It doesn't get them what they want, in fact quite and most completely and totally the opposite, but they think it will, so here we go...) Some people will even say that women, or females, (to include children/girls in this statement) are not created in the image of God. They say that it is only the female who sinned and not the rest of persons. They will say this to repress and oppress females and to take away their voice. They will say this as if they are quoting Genesis and as if it is the "word of God" They will attribute this to Paul, a first century preacher, whose words are also considered to be "the word of God" How long can such lies last and defame and deride more than half the human population without being fact checked and corrected? How much harm can it do and how much pain does it and has it caused? I suppose this comment would be better posted on another comment thread that is currently active in this forum, but the question of factchecking has come up, so I'm posting it here. Apologies if it really should be posted somewhere else. Thanks for reading

I don't blame people for their heritage or even their parents. I believe there is even something in Ezekiel about this, "A child shall not be held responsible for their parent's sin and a parent shall not be held responsible for their child's sin". (I'm quoting from memory here, but that's it as I remember it ) I understand that statement to be a fraud and a hoax. Fact check: George Soros did not say he would fund “Black Hate groups” https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-soros-hate-groups-idUSKBN23C2OQ

I also would choose to do things in a peaceful manner. I don't think that I myself would participate in knocking down one of those statues. I do understand some of the feelings of those who are doing it however. I don't consider it violence either. I don't think that one can do violence to an inanimate object, at least not real violence. Sorry, I didn't know-know. Where is that posted? Like I've said I don't really consider that to be violence. Like I've also said, I like you would prefer a different method of removing a statue. I have wondered if perhaps it's the only way people feel it could be done or real national and majority attention could be called to the subject. I keep thinking that one of the only laws that I really have a problem with in this country is the waist-band seatbelts on pregnant people. It's the law in most states and a person is technically breaking the law if they don't wear it. I've talked about it, written about it, tried to find people who could design and engineer something better and different. I've even talked to police officers who have said if they pulled someone over and they were pregnant and didn't have that part of the belt on, that they wouldn't do anything and wouldn't press charges. It's been decades and nothing has happened. Would I deface a statue or something in order to save a bunch of babies lives? Maybe I would. But there isn't a statue anywhere that I know of that would serve this purpose, so it's kind of a mute point. Would you feel the same way about a statue of Hitler if your own mother practically starved to death under his hand and his leadership? How do you get over your mother being more than half starved to death? How do you get over your mother being condemned to a life of poverty and servitude because of someone or somethings? Well, ... WELCOME HOME !!!!! ... I don't feel like you folks got near enough of a Welcome Home ... So Welcome Home ! .... (hope that's ok) Some statues I'm thinking could be considered hate speech. I myself might consider a statue of Hitler, hate speech. Hate speech is a federal law. I don't know,... maybe I need to think about it some more . I myself believe in a balance between being culturally-centric and integration. I think that people should be able to do both, whether it's for a half and hour or half a lifetime or more. I think both have something to offer and that both are very, very valuable.

This is true Abuse of forgiveness can sometimes be a terrible thing depending on how it is used and how it is done. Sometimes it's enough just to forget and eventually let go, and leave the rest up to the All Mighty. If forgiveness comes it comes. If one can forgive that's good, but people don't always honestly have a choice Just like some people can't swim the English Channel or climb Mt. Everest. We can't go around asking people to do things they simply can't do.

I don't think that you know what it's like to be hurt so badly, so constantly and continuously that one is rendered simply incapable and unable to forgive. Or to have forgiveness used as a way of getting away with crimes and then re-perpetrating them, and then blaming the victimized for forgiving them and letting them get away with it, and making out like their perpetrations are then the victims fault because they forgave them and let them get away with it when in fact there was nothing they could do. I hope you never experience anything like this. But it is important to know that these things do happen and they need to be looked at and addressed.

I've been thinking there was one thing that was offered in some of these groups: That was the concept of finding a Higher Power of one's own understanding and to the best of one's understanding. Just that. It enabled and opened the door to people finding an understanding of God that they could appreciate and truly believe in, not one that they hated and feared which is what they were brought up with. Many of them actually grew up with their parents using the church and christianity to justify, and condone the abuse that they were perpetrating , and to keep the children quite about it too. Often hermits have to unlearn or shed a lot of what they learned in the world. Sometimes they don't have much to bring with them or keep.

I myself try to stay in touch with God as much as possible, and just try to feel Es presence as I go through my day. There are a few Christian groups that think of work and just doing stuff as a form of prayer. I like and agree with their concept(s). It also helps me to not rush too much, which is something that I need to work on. Hope you find a way of praying that works for you.

Hello and welcome I'm hoping that you are still interested in participating here and that you get an email or something that brings you back to the forum. My own story is not too un-similar to yours. I know what it's like to feel like there are only dysfunctional forms of Christianity to turn to. & it too has "hurt". I hope you choose to join us. I wasn't getting online much when you posted your intro. Sorry that I couldn't say hello and welcome until now. 🙂 Peace

Hello and welcome to this forum Condolences on the loss of your father. Glad to hear that you both "transcended" near the end. I hope that you are finding peace and that things are feeling less "raw" and painful. Like yourself I'm not a literalist Christian. I guess I could say I'm faith based instead of bible based. You'll find more on that and these perspectives if you join the conversations here in this forum. Can I ask, are you safe in leaving Islam? I know a few people who are afraid, even for their lives and even from their own family members, and that is here in the USA. There are some groups that exist to help and support these people. If you need the names of them perhaps I can help you. I hope you are safe and well and that everything is going well and good for you. Again welcome!

Hello and welcome It really looks like you will be a good and positive addition to this forum Matthew Fox and Robin Meyers are both cool. I've gotten much of my own inspiration from John Shelby Spong and Bart Ehrman, (I'm one of those believing Christians for whom Bart Ehrman actually enhances their faith). I don't agree with all of what any of these people say, (neither yours nor mine), but I think they all have made enormous contributions to what we call Progressive Christianity. Like yourself, I choose not to attend regular church services and probably won't in the future. Welcome to the group I hope you find it rewarding and worthwhile coming here.

No kidding! ... Thank You!

Actually from withdrawing and thinking, and internal searching, and meditating. Maybe with some given words like "knock and you shall find", but not much else. A lot of the recovery happened without someone else, including myself. They were just there to talk about it.

I'm thinking that you didn't get as much "guilt" or false guilt as many people have and did.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree. I used to work with people who were abused as children. Some of these people have stated quite plainly that they have had to find and have found a positive understanding of God and a feeling of God's presence within them and in their live, all on their own. If they were given any understanding of god from their parents or community, it was a very awful, distorted one. A hermit or a monk living and working alone can have this kind of understanding. Someone who just lives alone and thinks about this kind of thing can develop this kind of experience and understanding of God. Thanks for reading

I agree with you here on both points. Yay! we've agreed on 3 points! It's not that that important and it's better to be honest then to just agree,... but still it's nice when we find it. It's not just Paul. It's the whole bible in it's entirety, starting with Genesis chapter one. How can the sky be a "dome" of water? How can plants exist on this earth without the sun being first in the sky? The thing is that the bible has some good ideas and insights and some bad ideas and un-insights, and everything in between. People have to look at the quality of the individual ideas, and not just by into the writing or the book as a whole. Spong has talked about guilt trips, particularly religious guilt trips, and how the church(s) have used this to control people False guilt is worse. If a person is truly guilty of something they can do something about it. They can make amends, apologize, and try to make things better. If it's false guilt and one is just labeled with it, there's nothing one can do, they just have to live with it and feel awful and broken every moment of their lives. Yeah, but no one is sitting around discussing whether white people or black people can speak in church or spiritual gatherings or whether they can have a spiritual or philosophical voice or not. God gave us all voice boxes, vocal cords, and tounges. If it's not to use them, and particularly and most especially in spiritual matters, then what are they there for? It's an insult to humanity to say that someone or some group of humanity cannot speak in church or anywhere else. Great, we agree again. Like I said it's not always necessary or important,... but it is nice when we find it.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. I personally find it amazing, the way you write and often look at things, that you haven't experienced this yourself. That you haven't felt God inside you, haven't experienced Es Grace and Presence. This without anything intermediary, other people, books, teachers, art, landscapes, what have you. I don't find it "theistic" at all, at least not the way Spong uses the word. As I've said before, I find it in fact completely the opposite.

How would you guys feel if a bunch of people and or women were sitting around discussing the rightful role of men in the church? Would you be thinking, what right and where do they get off, thinking they can decide or question the matter and subject in the first place? Just asking Thing is, billions of people think this is the absolute word of God. I talk to people who deal with it every day, and who are shut up and silenced because of these words. There's a whole fundamentalist front out there trying to block any progressive understanding of Christianity or the bible. They have even gone so far as making death threats. These old, archaic and awful ideas may be passing into history, but they are not really quite there yet. John Shelby Spong has gone so far to say that the 12 apostles were not just the 12. That there was a greater group of both women and men who were his closest followers and apostles. The 12 (& they are not the same in all the gospels),were singled out to replace the 12 tribes of Israel in Jewish spiritual ideology and religious thinking. I believe he says this in his book, 'Jesus for the Non-Religious', probably in chapter 4, entitled 'The Historicity of the Twelve Disciples'.

Yea, but a good half of Christianity doesn't know that these letters are pseudo-Paul. Of those who know about the issues and the debate, about the half of them don't believe it. I've listened to many lectures and read many things by and to John Shelby Spong, the issue comes up a lot in this/these circles. There are also articles and books put out by other Progressive Christians. The issue comes up a lot. What seems to come up and be stated is that some of Paul's ideas were good, some of Paul's ideas were not so good, and some of Paul's ideas are just plain awful. This is true whether they are pseudo-Pauline ideas or Pauline ideas. Whether the ideas are about humanity, women, slavery, the divine right of kings and government, or how God is described and depicted and what ideas God approves of and condones. People have these issues with Paul and with the bible itself

I totally disagree with you that "a God who has 1-on1 contact is more theistic than non-theistic." What I understand to be the "theistic god" from John Shelby Spong's writings and lectures is that this is a god who lives in the sky like a supernatural daddy or something. Not a God whose spirit and presence can be felt in our hearts and minds and souls and who gives us insights through these same means. I don't mean to sound negative or too blunt, but you sound a bit like someone who thinks that food can only come from the supermarkets, (through middle people and persons), and that people can never ever no matter what, grow or gather their own food or fetch their own water. Both ways are equally doable, it's just that one might take a bit more or a different kind of personal effort or be a good bit more unfamiliar. I wish I could remember the titles and authors of some of the books I've read. I've even thought of driving some 200+ miles to the library I used to frequent just to get the info. There is the book, 'Jesus the Lost Years', by Ronald Rayner and, 'Jesus in Cornwall' by the same author, but there are other books as well. Doing a google search on this subject there is a lot that comes up. It would take some real time to sort through and sort out. One thing that stands out for me is that the 'content' of what Jesus taught and preach is often very similar to the 'content' put forth in other traditions. There's been a lot said and written about this in the past few decades. How much of it was by "critical scholars" I don't know, but I'm sure there are some. I'm afraid I've been studying this for my own education, because I'm very much interested in it, and not so I could collect the information and pass it on to others. In fact I haven't thought about that at all, so I haven't kept a bibliography or a source listing of I've gotten the information. I'm just looking for the good and enlightening ideas and not caring too much who wrote them or where they come from. If a good idea comes from a 5 year old or a 95 year old, it's pretty much all the same to me. Yeah, I think that Christ is different than the rest of us. How much and to what degrees is another question. I think that he was most probably the first person, the first human being, to become fully eternal. I think that he is the Christ, the savior of the whole world and humanity. Yeah this is different from the rest of us and from the Jews of his day.

Also the content of what he was saying is often similar to other spiritual, wisdom and university traditions. I'm thinking that Sufism came some 600 years after Christ, so if there was some borrowing done here, it was probably the other way around. Jesus did something between the ages of 13 and 30. That's 17 years. It's also the years that most of us get what we call a higher education. Thinking of him just doing some kind of regular manual type work somehow doesn't quite fit, not that there's anything wrong with that kind of work. I've read a few books on the subject, wish to no end that I could remember the authors and titles, they were all library books. I think that the 'content' argument is a good and compelling argument. Myself I put more weight into the 'content' of an idea or a saying than whether the person who said it had a PHD or something.

Well, we are talking here particularly about women speaking and teaching and preaching in church. 1st Corinthians and 1st Timothy. It's my understanding that 1st Timothy is considered to be pseudo-Paul. I've also seen that some scholars attest that the verses in 1st Corinthians were copied and edited into the letter by later "editors", perhaps even being borrowed from 1st Timothy.

Yes, I agree, at the time of it's reading and writing it was a small part of one letter written to one particular group of people. Today however that is not the case. It's part of a collection of books and letters that enormous numbers of people consider to be "the word of God". It's a few verses in the most published book on earth. It has effected half of the world's population and half of the family members of everyone everywhere for 1,600 years and more in a negative and phytologically and spiritually harmful way. That's a lot of lives that it has hurt, undermined and swept under the bridge. Half the Christian world has "issues with Paul". Almost all Progressive Christians have "issues with Paul". Most Christian scholars, writers and speakers particularly inside Progressive Christianity have "issues with Paul". Are you trying to imply that there is something wrong with having "issues" with some of the things that Paul is reported to have written? One could say, and many people have, that there much more likely something wrong with someone who doesn't have problems or "issues" with some of the things Paul is ascribed to have written. What does backup and unpack mean in the context you are using it?

Widows are not the same as single women. We agree that there were many of them and that Paul was ok with this and not everyone had to get and be married. He still doesn't give them a voice or a way of being heard. Either you have a husband to talk to or you can't talk about spiritual matters. This is extremely limiting. How would you feel if the only way that you could express yourself spiritually or religiously was through your spouse? & how would you feel about that if you didn't have one? Today his words are being used to keep half the world's population and half the members of everyone's own family as chattel. Luckily it's not succeeding in all groups and all populations.