Elen1107

I'm also thinking that the opposite is also true. Any past revelations must be discerned in the light of personal and more modern revelation and or insight(s) as well. Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it is either right or wrong, it can be either. It depends on the tradition or the "revelation" or the idea(s). It is nice to find confirmation and like mindedness with other people and other thinkers. It can be real nice to find that one is not alone in the world with one of their ideas or insights. It can also be downright scary if someone tries to shutdown and shutoff one's truest ideas and insights. Sometimes they are jealous, sometimes it's because they don't conform to their understanding of things, or they just don't understand it. Sometimes it means that they can no longer proceed with their greedy or self-centered ways, I think Jesus went through this and it was quite very possibly one of the reasons he faced crucifixion. Jesus might have been strong enough and deep and insightful enough to take this, I don't know if the rest of us are. I think that you are so right in saying that "Self-deception is a real and present danger." , in regards to the subject we have been talking about as well as many, many other ideas and subjects. As far as what we have been talking about, all I can say is that, if one is being truly honest with oneself, when one is truly in touch with God, JC or the HS, one knows it, there is no doubt, one just knows it. Likewise, if one is not in touch with any or all of them, and one is being totally honest with oneself, one also knows it, there's no way around it, and if one is like against fooling oneself, one just knows it. Also one can be partially in touch with them, one just needs to be honest about it and know where they are at, and if one needs to do something or be aware of it or work on it or something, then one need to know that and do something about it or something. -------------------------------------------- Just ran into a statement by Richard Rohr, that seems to be somewhat about people being in touch with God. To read it one needs to go to this Amazon link, then click on the jacket cover of the book - this will bring up a kindle of some of the book - then one needs to click on chapter one in the index - the second paragraph of chapter one seems to be about this/these kinds of experience of being in touch with God and the trinity. https://www.amazon.com/Wild-Man-Wise-Reflections-Spirituality/dp/0867167408/ref=pd_sbs_14_1/136-8344692-6894934?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0867167408&pd_rd_r=2ebff78c-1345-48ce-9c97-332f4b16459e&pd_rd_w=CA4Cu&pd_rd_wg=oIrxV&pf_rd_p=703f3758-d945-4136-8df6-a43d19d750d1&pf_rd_r=JJGWE7W1GZV6SH30RFPQ&psc=1&refRID=JJGWE7W1GZV6SH30RFPQ Sorry if I'm cramming a bit too much into one post, but I have a feeling that I'm going to run out of comments again, so I'm making good/big use of the ones I've got. Thanks for reading

It's nice to find some common ground and agreement again. This is a pun on words but, ... Don't be so booked-up that U can't wait on or have room for God to touch you and relate to you directly through your own understanding and insight(s). Don't know if that ^ really works, but I've written it up anyways That actually sounds kind of interesting. I wouldn't mind knowing more about that/those experience(s) of yours, that's if you want to put them into words and share with people. I'm still trying to figure out how to regard or relate to the book. I find I do a lot better if I just do 'no book' and just go with the spirit of God and Christ within me, and the holy spirit too. I don't end up doing or thinking anything that's really out there in relation to how the traditional booked-up mentality goes, except maybe they'd say I communicate too much for a female, which isn't communicating any more than any of the males do, so I don't see why their /your role model in this shouldn't be ok and stuff like that. I think I have some good ideas and insights at times, and I don't have a male person to express them for me, so why shouldn't I express them myself. I guess I myself don't really care who expresses the ideas or whatever, I much more care that the right or most insightful ideas get expressed. Still, if I see or feel that these ideas aren't getting shown or expressed, why shouldn't I express them myself? I'm not trying to 'control' anyone or be the big spokesperson for anyone or everyone. I take other people's ideas one at a time, and expect the same. Just because one person has a bunch of good ideas on one day doesn't mean they might not have a bad idea on another day or at another time. That's just people. Expecting anyone of us to be the perfect incarnation of Jesus all the time is a bit much as far as I'm concerned. Try as one might, I think most of us are going to come up with a bad or not so good idea once in a while. Edit> Or someone/one of us might express something in not quite the right way, which I myself do a bit too, too often. . . . . (the forum has just told me that I've run out of comments, for now, so I'll catch up with you and everyone else later). Thanks for reading all this and thanks for your comments.

😄 Did not ! . . . I experience Him that way ! ! ! 🙂 Edit> I had too - I would never have believed it from reading it in a book, not any or all books !

How would you yourself answer this question? I myself just experience Jesus as eternal - {but don't tell thormas, he'd say I can't do that and that I neeeeeed a book 🙂 )

But what if a person has never experienced any of these things? What if a person or people have been hurt so badly that they can't let any of these things in. They simply can't connect with them. What if all a person has is God's love given to them directly and through the direct experience of God. What if that is all they have? What if that is the only 'thing' they can trust and get close to? Would you try to take it away from them by saying that sort of thing doesn't exist? . . . that it can't happen ? Maybe they could figure it out a lot easier if all these books and dogma weren't being dumped on them all the time If they could experience God and God's Love directly, instead of dealing with all this "cultural" and other crap.

Great verse! I've always liked the one from Paul, "The word of God is in your mind and on your lips"

Yes I do realize that the laugh face meant you were joking. I just wanted to complete the conversation and get to the heart or the bottom of the issue. So the book itself is telling us we don't need a book. Do we need a book to tell us that, or can anyone anywhere figure it out on their own. . .

I've never really heard of that perspective before, but it is interesting. Myself, I need to think about it for a bit. Thanks for sharing your outlook and perspective.

I'm thinking I might have gotten it from Burl So if a person just had a pure heart but they never heard what Jesus said about it, then, they would never have seen God. It only works if someone has heard someone talk about it first? -------------------------------- If a person never was shown God's love from other people, or never read about it in a book or something, then they can never know or experience God's love. Is that what you are saying?

Do you think that any of them "got it" after the resurrection?

5,464,431 Coronavirus Cases 171,284 Deaths Just because Trump wanted to be popular and tell everyone what they wanted to hear, & to save his precious economy which he's ended up destroying because he won't listen to the medical experts. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

You don't think that any of the people(s) that I underlined from the first six chapters of Mark "got it"? Is that what you are saying?

Don't know whose phrase it is. We've all been using it. Funny that's not what JC said when he said that,... "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. . . but only with a book",... no, I think someone's been adding something. I've been encountering some Greek Orthodox speakers online that do say that we all do or can experience God directly, but it's nothing I'd want to post. A lot of what they say is good, but then there's the orthodox side that is too heavy for me. Can I ask you, do you experience God's love for you directly, or through other people, or both? & Would you say that only one or the other is truly valid?

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Do you think that any of these people ^ have a conscious experience of God - with or without a book? 🙂

What do you mean by "justified in Christ"?

Thanks

I agree with what you are saying, but I think that God also comes to us directly, though it is the Son that enables this opportunity to happen. One can still have a direct experience of God. Here's one of the places where I disagree with Spong. I think that God is both a noun and a verb and so much more. Perhaps we don't really have a term like noun or verb that adequately or completely describes God. That would be like my saying that experiences that come through words and books are not legitimate and that they don't count. That they don't happen and that the only real experiences are when one experiences God directly. Which I don't and haven't. Or like God reveals Emself only to people through words, to people who can read, or who have good people to show them the way and show God to them. That would be a "choosy" idea of God also The instances you mention do seem to be about messed up people. Still people do experience God and they are not messed up. They are not asking you to give them money, or acclaim, or think they are some kind of different and extra special. However, we are ALL special and even extra special, and God can help us feel this and know this. (we are just not any more special than anyone else)

Do you have any quotes or parts that you can remember about how any of these people put their conscious experience of God into words? It sounds interesting. It seems that I've read some of this, at least by Augustine, but right now I can't remember what I've read. If you have any recollections let me know. Thanks

You still haven't told me which version of the 10 Commandments you are referring to. Paul in one of his epistles/letters says that it doesn't matter which day people call God's day and make holy. What is important is that they devote that day to God. Jesus in many of his teachings enhanced the law and made them more perfect. For instance, the law says, "You shall not kill". Jesus does not negate this but goes on to say that one should not even get angry. The law says a man may divorce, Jesus says that people may only get divorced in extreme circumstances. There are many other examples of this. The first commandment in the law is to have no other god before the One God. Jesus says to love God with all your mind and all your heart. These things are similar, but they are not the same. Jesus makes the second most important commandment to love one's good neighbor as oneself. This is not part of the 10 commandments. Still, Jesus says that all of the law is summed up in these two commandments. How are people disobeying Jesus by doing and believing these things?

I don't know if I understand JtB to be apocalyptic. Don't know if I think JC taught regular people only in parables. But these are for other subject threads. I can see what you are saying that the development of the church was a deliberate strategy, but there were also somethings going on that were not so deliberate and organized. I've been going through the Gospel of Mark, underlining all the regular people who are mentioned in it's pages. Most of them are unnamed and just identified as groups or individuals or by the town or area they were living in, or by the synagogue they are worshiping in . It looks like these people just got the faith or got very interested in Jesus. They didn't have even the first letter written by Paul, they didn't have Jesus and his close group staying with them for very long, and though they were probably mostly Jewish, it appears that a real number of them were not. Sometimes we only tend to focus only on the lead caricatures in a narrative and don't really notice everyone else that are also there in the texts. I've only gotten up to the 6th chapter of Mark. It's a little long so if you don't want to read it or just want to scan it, I understand. The parts where these peoples show up in the text are underlined. I've left some of the surrounding verses to give the underlined parts context: Mark 1 4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. *.* In Mark this is Jesus’s first teaching/preaching (after calling some (4) of the apostles/ the12) There’s a journey from near Jerusalem to Capernaum first/here too: 21 They went to Capernaum, and when the Sabbath came, Jesus went into the synagogue and began to teach. 22 The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law. 23 Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an impure spirit cried out, 24 “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!” 27 The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, “What is this? A new teaching—and with authority! He even gives orders to impure spirits and they obey him.” 28 News about him spread quickly over the whole region of Galilee. *.* 29 As soon as they left the synagogue, they went with James and John to the home of Simon and Andrew. 30 Simon’s mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they immediately told Jesus about her. 31 So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her and she began to wait on them. 32 That evening after sunset the people brought to Jesus all the sick and demon-possessed. 33 The whole town gathered at the door, 34 and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was. * 35 Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed. 36 Simon and his companions went to look for him, 37 and when they found him, they exclaimed: “Everyone is looking for you!” 38 Jesus replied, “Let us go somewhere else—to the nearby villages—so I can preach there also. That is why I have come.” 39 So he traveled throughout Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and driving out demons. 40 A man with leprosy[h] came to him and begged him on his knees, “If you are willing, you can make me clean.” 41 Jesus was indignant.[i] He reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” 42 Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cleansed. 43 Jesus sent him away at once with a strong warning: 44 “See that you don’t tell this to anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.” 45 Instead he went out and began to talk freely, spreading the news. As a result, Jesus could no longer enter a town openly but stayed outside in lonely places. Yet the people still came to him from everywhere. Mark 2 2 A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!” 13 Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14 As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him. 15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” Mark 3 3 Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.” 4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent. 5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus. Crowds Follow Jesus 7 Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the lake, and a large crowd from Galilee followed. 8 When they heard about all he was doing, many people came to him from Judea, Jerusalem, Idumea, and the regions across the Jordan and around Tyre and Sidon. 9 Because of the crowd he told his disciples to have a small boat ready for him, to keep the people from crowding him. 10 For he had healed many, so that those with diseases were pushing forward to touch him. 11 Whenever the impure spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.” 12 But he gave them strict orders not to tell others about him. Jesus Appoints the Twelve 13 Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14 He appointed twelve[a] that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons. 16 These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter), 17 James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder”), 18 Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 19 and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. 20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family[b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” 31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.” 33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. 34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.” Mark 4 4 Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. 2 He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: 3 “Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, some multiplying thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times.” 10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, “‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’[a]” 13 Then Jesus said to them, “Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14 The farmer sows the word. 15 Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16 Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18 Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20 Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.” * 35 That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37 A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?” Mark 5 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%205&version=NIV 5 They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17 Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region. 18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19 Jesus did not let him, but said, “Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” 20 So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis[b] how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed. 21 When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. 22 Then one of the synagogue leaders, named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. 23 He pleaded earnestly with him, “My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.” 24 So Jesus went with him. A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. 31 “You see the people crowding against you,” his disciples answered, “and yet you can ask, ‘Who touched me?’ ” 37 He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother of James. 38 When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39 He went in and said to them, “Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.” 40 But they laughed at him. After he put them all out, he took the child’s father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41 He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum!” (which means “Little girl, I say to you, get up!”). 42 Immediately the girl stood up and began to walk around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. 43 He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat. Mark 6 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%206&version=NIV 6 Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. 2 When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed. Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. 7 Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits. 8 These were his instructions: “Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9 Wear sandals but not an extra shirt. 10 Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11 And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.” 12 They went out and preached that people should repent. 13 They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them. * 30 The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, “Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest.” 32 So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. 33 But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them. 34 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things. * 39 Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. 40 So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. 41 Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. 42 They all ate and were satisfied, 43 and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. 44 The number of the men who had eaten was five thousand. * 53 When they had crossed over, they landed at Gennesaret and anchored there. 54 As soon as they got out of the boat, people recognized Jesus. 55 They ran throughout that whole region and carried the sick on mats to wherever they heard he was. 56 And wherever he went—into villages, towns or countryside—they placed the sick in the marketplaces. They begged him to let them touch even the edge of his cloak, and all who touched it were healed. ------------------------------ What I'm trying to show is that a lot of people just got the faith and took things from there. I'm thinking is that there is something about that simple faith and belief that took people somewhere spiritually and it had a real life giving effect on them. They had no book, no continuous presence of a group leader, but still perhaps it gave them something great and wonderful and life and spirit changing Thanks if you managed to read all this and look at the underlined parts that are just about ordinary people who got the faith. Thanks

I don't know if I myself would call this "in-carnation". I would perhaps instead call it reflecting God or showing God's Love through ourselves and our own little beings. ------------------------------------- Just came across these verses from Mathew 11: The Father Revealed in the Son 25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. 27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” I'm thinking that what is important here and what we are talking about is in 27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." So, there are those that the Son chooses to reveal the Father to, and therefor there are those who have a true experience of God. I just c&p-ed the other verses surrounding 27 cause I really liked them and thought they were real nice. What I'm really trying to communicate is what it says in verse 27. Thanks for reading again

It's nice to have some agreement on this and on some of this/these things. I don't ness. see it as "the mystery of the cross", however I really like what you said about "the intersection of the horizontal physical and the vertical metaphysical". I'm kind of more understanding it as the intersection of the eternal (vertical) and time {lines} (horizontal). Do you think you could put your conscious experience of God into words? Or that anyone can? Thanks

I'm not saying put away the books forever, or even a full day. I'm just saying put them away for an hour or two, or maybe a half a day, what ever works best for a given individual. I think that the word 'Word' in referring to Jesus means more than just 'words' or 'word'. One gets into the translation of the the Greek word Logos here. I myself tend to think that the word Logos stands for Jesus's full identity and being. Don't get me wrong, I love words, perhaps too much. I wish we had the words for everything, I really love things perfectly spelled out in words, I really, really do. But I have some real doubts that we can really have this. I often feel that even the word 'God' is hopelessly inadequate, but it's the only word we have given the language. Yeah, perhaps that is true, one cannot experience God except through the Son. But if the Son brings one to experiencing God directly, then that would also follow and be true. I think in this world we get what we get. Some of us experience the Spirit of Christ more directly, for some of us it's God's Spirit or the spirit of the Holy Spirit. For some it's a mixture of all three, depending on what kind of day we are having or what our focus at a given time is. Also perhaps sometimes they are some what indistinguishable, which is ok too. What is important is that we are staying connected to something/one truly positive, true and living and not all the false positives that we get and see in this "worldly life". Thanks for reading. Don't sell yourself short, or others either. I believe the experience does exist, and one doesn't need to be a fancy, highly endowed saint or nothing, this can happen to regular folks and children. I'm thinking that it often does but goes unrecognized or dismissed as something that doesn't really relate to the outer world, so people say it doesn't exist or is just made up. Thanks again for reading

To me, "supernatural theism" is a man with a white beard and long robes floating around in the sky, who we can talk to so we get the Christmas present we want or something. Perhaps we are going to end up just disagreeing on this/these ideas. Still, and I hope that I don't sound like too much of an older lady or something in saying this, I just can't help but want to "challenge" you to experience God directly. Put away all the books and the words for just a bit and just experience God's Spirit, or Christ's Spirit or the Holy Spirit directly. In your emotions, in your mind, in your spirit, however it works best for you. Like I said, I hope I don't sound too much like an old lady. I can't help but feel like if anyone can do it, you can, (or something quite close to that).

Yeah, but some of them only seem to have had Jesus in the flesh for only an hour or two, or a day or two, or even a minute or two, or just seen him and experienced him from across the road. There were others who just heard about him from someone else, and never actually saw him or heard him talk. I don't think we should undermine simple faith and belief and spiritual revelation that happens to regular ordinary people. It could really be one of the more important things.