Elen1107

Even during Jesus's ministry, a lot of people just seemed to get the faith, just the simple message of "good news" , and then Jesus and his group went off to somewhere else, leaving those people to figure somethings out and do something on their own. I think people experienced him as eternal, whether it was during or after his ministry or thousand(s) of years later.

Up is down and down is up here in the US. I feel like the only power or sanity that I have is to ignore him, vote against him and his, and try and live in the 'Presidentupality of Heaven' and forget about the nut. It's the best I can do or can figure. Hope things go and stay ever so much better for you(s) in the land of Oz.

I'm wondering it that's all that most of the first Christians had as well. There's this guy Jesus whose spirit can help people out and be a real good thing, and that's it. Seems like the "good news" didn't always have to be this elaborate and complicated thing. People got the faith and some belief and took it from there. It' the belief and faith that counts, not all this blah-blah-blah that we are sometimes subjected to. Nobody had a New Testament, it hadn't even been written yet, but I think they had something good and real going for them all the same.

I agree with you. I hope people leave them alone and just let them have their lives that seem to be a lot better and more sensible than ours, especially since we don't know what we are doing with Christianity right now too. It's like we don't have much if anything to offer them, except maybe that there's this guy Jesus whose spirit can help people out and be a good thing. But that's it, don't tell them anything else, it will just mix them up and make them as messed up as we are.

I don't know if I can quite explain what I am thinking or my insight into things. Jesus is eternal. He's an eternal human being, or a human being who became eternal. He is today living in the "Kingdom" of heaven. He also touches and reaches us, living here in this world. Like wise, the more we are touched by him and his spirit, the more we understand him, the more we enter the "kingdom". The more our understanding changes and we really see which way is up and which way is down, the more we accept his insight to become our true selves in Christ, the more we enter the "Kingdom". The "kingdom" might be more in the realm of understanding, spirituality and insight than something we see outside of ourselves like buildings and governments and perhaps even church buildings, and worldly priorities and so forth. A simple person living in caring and kindness might be more in or "higher" in the kingdom of heaven, than the richest most money minded top dog leader as far as this outer "world" is concerned. I think that we can enter the eternal kingdom as we live our lives here and today. It doesn't need to be a big ta-da here on earth, (though it can be a wonderful ta-da in one's own hearth and spiritual understanding of things). In this sense the kingdom has been established, it is eternal, and people, all people can enter it. That everyone doesn't see it, well, maybe they are not looking for it or they need to be shown it a bit or something. I don't know everything, but I hope some of this makes some sense anyways.

I don't really see how Isaiah 66 refutes anything I've said. Don't really see what it really has to do with what I said either. I came across this video earlier today. Perhaps it might explain what people on this website mean by "Progressive Christianity". The video is put out by the same people and organization that host this website and this forum. Thanks for reading and for watching the video

Just a thought, but if the news about Jesus needs to be preached to all the people's of the earth before God's kingdom can come,... Well we've just now, in the past 50 years or so, discovered people/tribes living in the Amazon. . . . . So if the news and message about Jesus needs to be spoken to or shared with everyone first,... That would be a relatively recent event.

Hallelujah! Let's send up some balloons ! Spong outlines how the Gospel of Mark is set up to mark out and walk through the Jewish liturgical year. (I believe this is in his book, 'Jesus for the Non-Religious'). In Jewish synagogues, they read certain scenarios from the Torah to round out the entire year. This is repeated within Jewish Christianity. I think that there might be some echoing of a similar Jewish story into the new Christian one, such as the exodus from Egypt being replaced by the Christ child being brought back from Egypt, or 40 years in the wilderness being replaced by 40 days of Jesus fasting, etc. I have a feeling that Jewish Christians might have been trying to hide their original Jewish identities, considering what happened with Rome in 70. This might be why their identities and presence isn't seen or felt too much after that time. That is also what Spong has said. That it started as oral traditions, spoken and done in Americ. How much of this original oral tradition got into the 1st Greek written Gospels and how much these oral traditions were added to is another question. How much the Jewish Christians were trying to hide themselves and their original Jewish identities is another question also. They might have been there, but known only to themselves. I don't know much about Catholic masses, but do they follow a yearly liturgy similar to the way the Jews do? The pope certainly wears a little hat similar to the hat Jewish men do. I wonder how much has been passed down that reflects and parallels the original Jewish services.

I'm confused by your reply. Your last post quotes the same paragraph written by me twice, with what seems like two different comments on it. Is that what you meant to have happened?

I think that it's great that we are agreeing again 🙂 I especially liked the following from your link/post. That is one wonderful and insightful translation: Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Repent (metanoeo) (in Greek) means to think differently for the (basileia) realm of (ouranos) by implication happiness or elevated state is (eggizo) made near or at hand. I think I'll copy it to my hard drive just so I'll have it and remember it.

I think what you are saying is pretty much hitting the nail on the head. The big thing about Paul and his mission to the Gentiles was not about whether Gentiles should be included or not, but whether they should have to become Jewish and follow all of the Jewish law fist. The debate between Paul and Peter and James was not about the inclusion of Gentiles, that was already understood and acknowledged. It was about whether they would also have to become Jewish and follow certain parts, if not all of the Jewish law. Spong in writing about the gospels, says that they were written as liturgy, in and for the Greek speaking Jewish synagogues living outside of Judea. They may well have been calling their buildings and gatherings churches instead of synagogues, (considering Rome was pos. out to get the Jews after 70) but according to Spong they were mostly if not all Jewish converts to Christ. Maybe the truth is somewhere in between, I don't know. There were certainly Gentile converts by the time the gospels were written. Did they gather in the same places that the Jewish converts did or mix with them regularly and freely? Perhaps the answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no, depending on where they lived and on the leaning and temperament of the different communities .

I don't really see the "done in a flash" thing as being a real part of reality. Even some of the apostles didn't seem to 'get it' well into Christ's ministry. Paul in his letters talks about people going through a transition and needing time to change and essentially put on a new way of thinking and believing. Though Paul is writing to Gentiles, there's no reason to believe that Jewish people didn't need some time to change and adjust also. There's no reason why someone who was living in the Kingdom of God, couldn't be standing next to and talking to someone who was living and thinking in the kingdom of Caesar. The first person could be going home to a community where everyone was sharing (both the work and the goods) and everyone was being treated equally, while the second person was going home to a community where there was no or very little sharing of goods and work and no one or not many people were being treated as equal. Today you could have one person living under the English Crown, talking to a person living under the American Presidency, and another who is in the Kingdom of Heaven, all living and thinking with different priorities, ideas and values. How close these are to each other and where they might overlap is another question. I've looked at some intentional communities, how close these each might come to a true kingdom of heaven is another question also. Just because other kingdoms and governments of different types have marched on through time, doesn't mean that the kingdom of heaven isn't still there and still growing and existing, (though it might not get in the news or be reported in famous histories, it doesn't mean it isn't still there in some form or another). Paul talked about "don't live in the world" (I take this as meaning don't live in worldly ideas and priorities), at the same time he said Christians could not avoid or not encounter the "world" entirely. I guess the thing was just not to get sucked or drawn into worldly thinking and behaviors. I might be thinking of the end of days as meaning the end of an era, and the beginning of days as the beginning of an era, which to me is what happened in the days when Christ first came and walked upon this earth.

This is another interview with Dr. Fauci. It seems that even after we have a vaccine, we may need to be practicing proper social distancing, mask wearing and hand washing for sometime

Wow, it seems that we are pretty much on the same page regarding this subject. It's good to see common agreement and a common/similar feeling on something when this happens.

This is Dr. Anthony Fauci on the C-virus and the reopenings. I'm not, nor is anyone in this forum, an immune biologist, or the head of the major health departments or task forces, but this guy is. I saw another article by him yesterday, but I didn't save the link. Maybe I can still find it.

I tend to think of "the end of times" or the in breaking of the Kingdom of Heaven as something that started with Jesus. It's the end of a kind of worldliness and worldly thinking or a worldly reality that is ending and new reality and way of looking at the world that was starting. It's not "the end of the world" but an end of a kind or worldly thinking and reality that is/was ending. This may happen to different individuals and or communities at different times in history and or in our own lives. People have been saying "it's the end of the world" and in our generation, for like forever. (I think that someone else has already mentioned this on this thread). Perhaps they are looking for the wrong sort of events to be happening. Jesus is quoted as saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you", "That the Kingdom of Heaven comes in a way that cannot be seen", and that, "The Kingdom of Heaven is scattered among you and people do not see it". This is a far different type of transformation, than the end of the world happening one day, and a whole entire new world arriving the next.

(Quote removed by Moderator JosephM) I think that God is "all powerful" in terms of eternity. In terms of who or what can enter into eternity. If one agrees with the premise that nothing and no one harmful can enter into the eternal, then a good number of humans have some 'evolving' to do before they/we can fully enter into the kingdom of heaven/eternity. I've wondered how much influence, or to use the more traditional word "dominion" do people have in this world and on this earth that we live on. If we have been given primary influence / dominion of this little earth, floating around in this enormous galaxy, perhaps that explains some of why we don't experience more of God's presence here on earth. It's up to us to find and know and be in harmony with God's ways and wishes. It's not up to God to be intervening, and answering, and doing everything for us.

How much comes from prior experiences and how much comes from direct and present experiences is a big question. Again, I think that you have been very lucky in that a lot has been given to you since the beginning. This isn't true for everyone. Some people have to tune out or put aside everything they have been taught since their beginnings, and have to connect to something else, something better, directly, with no intermediary and no external help. Then there's everyone in between these two extremes. People can do both. People can have insights and intuition based on what other people have said or written or communicated. The same people can have these insights come directly from the Higher Power/God and or JC or the HS. I don't think that the first Christians were just "reflecting" on what they had experienced. They were also having new insights and ideas that they were sharing in the congregations/churches. Do you ever ask yourself what you think? You've read this/these scholars and these theologians on this or that subject. Perhaps you choose your answer based on which you think is the best scholar or thinker. But do you ever ask yourself what you really think, despite what these other people are thinking or saying? I hope that this doesn't come across as a put down or a slight or something. I think you are quite capable of thinking and of coming to well thought out conclusions and answers for yourself. Maybe I think you are a bit used to going to or turning to someone else for answers, simply because you have been given so much in the past and during your lifetime. That's a good thing, not a bad thing,... but so is looking for and finding answers and insights for oneself.

Well, that's nice! It's nice to see people agreeing about something at least sometime,... though I know we can't all of the time, that would be ridiculous too. I agree that there is a sense of being "present" that one needs to be able to do this. One needs to come down to the present in order to tune out "the world" and tune in the higher presence(s). That's presences with an 's' if one includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit along with God.

Have you ever had a piece of intuition or insight that rouse up in you that you felt was or might be from God? Not something overwhelming or over powering but something that you felt was truly inspiring. Maybe it had to do with a question you'd been asking yourself for a long time or it had to do with something you'd been thinking about for a while. I think this sort of thing can happen to anyone, though we might have to tune into it and be open to it. It certainly did happen to the earliest Christians. It seems to be that these are the sort of things they were talking about when they met in their churches/gatherings, they didn't have a New Testament, but they were gathering and talking about something.

There are a good number of Christians that believe in both Christ and evolution. It's not an either - or question. Consider the following video, given by a Bishop, who is also a bestseller writer. One doesn't need to give up one's faith or belief in God to see what is really happening and being learned in science.

Like I said, I don't ness. believe these things myself. I've just met some folks who do. Sometimes I wonder though, if humans really do have dominion on this earth, if we couldn't all do a bit more praying or wishing that these things don't happen. I certainly would never blame a person for getting sick or getting cancer or something, I think that would be truly sick.

Well, I'm going to disagree with you on this one too. Since I first read the NT I was surprised to hear people say that Jesus only came for the Jewish people. I think that the fact that he has spoken to so many people who are not Jewish down through the ages also says something. Jesus, I believe, speaks to us each spiritually, not just through the NT. I think this is as important as any textual witnesses.

I have a video on herd immunity that mentions New York City as well as a number of other cities and countries. Governor Cuomo's heath expert also answered this question on one of his news briefings and stated that NYC was no where near herd immunity. New York has been following the CDC's guidelines to the letter. Chances are much, much better that this is what is stopping the spread of C19, rather than herd immunity. One thing that hospitals and states have going for them now that they didn't back in April is that they have more expertise in dealing with the virus. There are a few treatments that are at least 50% effective in treatment, Remdesivir is just one of them. Hospitals also have a better understanding of over all treatment, like when to put a person on oxygen or on a ventilator, and other procedures that I'm sure I don't know about. This is a link to info on herd immunity.

I keep thinking that you have been very lucky in that God has expressed Emself to you through the words and actions of so many people. I can't help but feel that God would (or even does) also express Emself to you directly, through your own ideas, thoughts and insights. From the things you write I find it a little hard to believe that this hasn't already happened, and maybe you just don't see it, cause you've had a lot of good things given to you. --------------------------- I agree that the best words are those that are spoken in the spirit of love.