Elen1107

Soma, Do you think that Jesus’s body has turned to dust? It could have been at some average time after the crucifixtion, {if you believe in the crucifixtion}, some years down the line, or after a ripe old age.

Hi satchbee, I want to let you know that I don't think you are the only gay person on this post forum. I'm not sure, but it does sometimes seem that way. Regardless, there's at least a few people who will be supportive of who you are. Peace and Freedom E.

romansh Yeah, but I can choose to do what I don't want to do, even if I don't want to, just like most people can. From the link you provide; it says that we are only the products of our heritage and our given environment. I think that we can be products of much more than this. We can find new ideas, insights and directions that are not part of our given environment, and new environments too. Once we are aware of it we can choose to tune into a higher spiritual power or the energy of a sacred individual. I think that a part of free will is choosing to take up responsibility rather than waiting for someone to hand it to us all the time. I think that the loop pin here so to speak, is a persons knowing to do this instead of not knowing what to do or just waiting for someone to tell them these things.

I think of Christ as the epitome of evolution, so go figure. Science and Christianity don't have to be as separate as they have sometimes been understood to be.

Joe, - how about Joey! At least from time to time ? - Or is that too much and too far out from your familiar rules and guide lines? You don’t have to answer this but if you don’t it could happen from time to time anyways. Concerning your post #15 I have to say I really don’t know, but what has kept coming to mind since I’ve read your post is that what Paul of T. might have been saying, when you get it all the way over here into North Western, sometimes Yankee, American modern English, might be – dying to selfishness. I guess ‘self’ and ‘selfishness’ are two different concepts to me. ‘Self’, having a sense of self, having a positive or spirited sense of self, or having a true sense of one’s self can be a good thing. Being selfish generally means something negative and having a or some bad character. I don’t know, but it’s the only thing that I can think of in regards to these statements and ideas. I don’t really think of the mind as part of the flesh, and in reading the bible I sometimes use or substitute the word material for flesh. As I told soma in my post #18 on this thread, I’m trying to think of even the body, and/or my body, in terms of pure and positive energy. So here comes the difference between the tactile and the purely spiritual. I’m not saying that the tactile can’t be spiritual and purely positive energy, but when one focuses on only the tactile, then one gets stuck, and limits one’s self to only a limited experience and understanding of things. Also as I told soma in the same post, I don’t necessarily think that everyone dies per se’. But that’s another subject and a Big One and definitely on the limits of my ability to write about or put into words, and of course I can just understand only so much concerning it. I’m short on time and energy and am still a bit under the weather so if I don’t cover everything that has been brought up in your posts and those of others, this is in part why. Blessings 4&2U&Yours E

Hi soma, Yes, but if we have an arm that is broken we might focus on our other arm for a bit to get it to take up the slack while the broken arm is mending. So in a way another limb does get involved or dragged into the scenario. Similarly, if a one has a broken spirit or heart, the mind might be very important in taking up stuff and the subjects that life is made of. As far as the body is concerned I am more and more thinking of how it can be thought of, and experienced, as pure energy - pure positive energy, as well as can be the other "parts" that are us. Some folks are going to say this is crazy, but when JC said, "there are those of this generation that will not taste death." I more than half believe he meant it. Greetings in Return E.

Steve, I agree with Joseph and his last post about yours whole heartedly. Sorry that I have not had more time for this post board, and am running way behind in keeping up with it. Peace 2U2 E.

Hi Mike, I’ve often thought that if I ever did have a child that I would not bring them to church until they were at least fifteen years old. Even then I would instruct them to have their full discretion, full cognitive abilities and acute sense of reasoning going, full time, even before they walk in there. Surly I’m being way over cautious, but all the same,… I have thought this way from time to time. I’m glad to hear that you feel that your children, now young adults, are doing well and are not “going overboard” so to speak, concerning these things. I would like to encourage your wife and you to try to be able to talk at least once in a while about these things and even about your differences regarding your beliefs and Christianity; but maybe I’m putting my words in where they don’t belong. I may be a good thing to talk about what you do believe in common first. I once dated/saw a man who was into very different music from myself. If we had been younger this probably would have been a dividing point, as it was we were able to deal with it with a sense of humor, even if we did make faces at each other from time to time. I like the ideas that you’ve shared from Confucius, I might only subscribe to them 80 or 90% but I still think they are insightful and informative. I’m thinking 80 or 90% is being perty favorable as things go in the realms of philosophy and ideas. If you ever want to share more philosophy from the east I would be most interested in hearing about it. There I a topic heading for “Other Wisdom Traditions” on this forum where ideas from Buddhism and other traditions are discussed. I want to thank you so much for liking my previous post to you. I was so afraid that it was too, too long and too about me. Even in this post I am explaining some of my own experiences so maybe you or someone else can get a little something from them, and hopeful not to be just about me. (Think of however Confucius would most respectfully say good bye and good wishes and imagine that being typed in here) Elen

Hi Paul, I’m finally having the time to give a reply to your last post, #18, to me above. I gotta say that the pin in my side about the gay - straight thing is that I don’t care too much to be labeled with the word straight for some apparent reason. Can’t the gay people come up with something else to call us? It also kind of implies that we are somehow not really happy, gay being a synonym for happy and all that. Even with a person whose personal life is not necessarily active or that active, a person can still be happy in other, I have to say very real and enjoyable and enlightening ways. All this being said I guess that “straight” is perhaps not all that bad and even does have some positive connotations. But I still have to think about this. About the heaven and hell thing. I’m kinnda like not so happy that I even said that I thought that there might be a hell, or even something like that. Yuck, I don’t like that idea/concept at all. Where I’ve been really tripped up by forgiveness and unconditional forgiveness and all that; is that I’ve been stuck in situations where a person having just done something very wrong, to me, and at me ,and on me; When I try to contest this behavior at all, then comes at me demanding and in effect forcing my forgiveness. This, with no apology, no admittance, no restitution what so even and with no intention of even maybe changing his act and/or his way of doing things. This can go on for only so many decades before I finally say, “forget it, you’re not forgiven” or “take it up with God” or even, “Even God has Es’ limits”. A person can only take so much of some things before they are unable to forgive whether they want to or not. It’s this and similar scenarios that make me think that without some sort of admittance, apology, restitution and changing of one’s ways, (in proportion to what was done of course), that maybe then, as Jesus is quoted as saying “you don’t get out”... Or don't "get out" just like that with no even half a half a thought about it. The following is from Matthew and is from the Sermon on the Mount: 23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. 25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-23.htm http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-26.htm http://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/5.htm So divine and unconditional forgiveness is there, but in fact a person might need to do something sometimes. In fact these situations are sometimes an opportunity for being able to make things right. I kind of figure that if I offer a full and complete apology (in proportion to whatever I have done wrong), (and make whatever restitution, admittance and changes I need to make, and actually create a new bunch or bit of a track record that at least somewhat balances out my old one), then if a person can’t or won’t forgive me, well, then, that’s on them. What I’ve done is not on them, but their unwillingness to forgive is. This kind of thing frees people from having to live with an elephant or an alligator or even a terrordactdile in the living room so to speak. So to me, that means it really is a positive opportunity, because living with these things can become a kind of hell in their own right. I could go on a good deal more about this subject, and even show that I’m really not so much of a hard liner regarding this subject; but my time restraints and interest in keeping my posts a bit shorter advise me to stop here. I hope that you are doing well and that things are on the ok-s between you and me E.

Thanks Joe I'd like to write more but I'm already perty far behind in my replies to folks. Thanks again, - & for replying to the things I've had to say and even for just knowing that I'm here on this post board. E.

Paul, I want to apologize to you if I've gotten too "New York" or too Yank on you in my last post. I'm kind of used to these things, and kind of come from a background of just trying to get a thing finally said, and don't worry too much about how it's being said. Which I'm sure isn't too much of a good Christian example. Being a good Christian does need to come before being a good Yankee or a good American for me, and this I'm sure will make me a better Yankee and American in the true course of things. I'm working on it, though perhaps I could be a bit more diligent here. Thanks if you can bear with it/ me. Best of Wishes and Intent E

Hi Joe, The first part of your last post on this thread (#74) really hurts me: You say: “I have no trouble believing it because i was also once blinded and perhaps still am in some areas.” I keep looking at it and don’t really know what to say. It sounds like a really painful experience. I’ve been blinded at times, but I kind of knew I was blinded and went out looking for ways to get through it and figure out what was blinding me. That was a very painful experience too, but I kept “wrestling with the bear” so to speak, until I could get em off of me and keep em at least so far away from me that e couldn’t bother me anymore. I approach Christianity from kind of a different perspective than most people in our age group, (I guess you could call us the baby boomers). I wasn’t really raised religiously. There was some home grown stuff that I was exposed to, or more like confronted with, but we weren’t church going and there was no real pressure and relatively little lost when I at one time said “I’m not going to believe in any of this”. It was some ten or fifteen years later when I started experiencing the reality of Christ, (conciously that is, looking back it seems he was very much there even when I couldn’t see or wasn’t aware that that was Him). It was then at least five years or so, when I figured out that I didn’t have to believe in it in a “by the book”, literalistic, fundamentalistic way. I’m half Dutch and half Yankee and maybe this has helped me be free to look at religion and Christianity in a very independent, and perhaps open minded way, (especially on/with the Dutch side of things). I guess the quote you made from Jesus saying, “Forgive them father for they do not know what they are doing", has always kind of gotten to me. I keep thinking that don’t people at least have some obligation to know what they are doing. It’s like here they are killing and crucifying this guy, you would think that at least a few people would say, “Hey, what are we doing here.” But then I’m arguing with what Jesus probably said and did and thought, so I’m thinking I ought to keep my mouth shut or keyboard still until I can better understand what He was saying, or at least somewhat better. I guess it was a time when people were put to death in a very painful ways for things like thievery. Today someone saying that they are a child of God is considered not uncommon and even commendable, back then when JC said it I guess,… that it really got on people’s nerves. Again, I guess I can say that I really don’t get that part. Again from your post #74: “Every choice i have made in life i made under the limitations that were present at the time. In my experience, we are blinded by our strong beliefs and opinions until some stimulus happens that breaks us through that barrier.” I’m thinking that we are all limited. We can’t be God, or at least not all of God in all of Es entirety. I’m also thinking that strong or spiritual beliefs can also open the door for us, open our eyes and see our options more clearly. And as you say also create limits and barriers to what may be the most sensible choices. Quoting your post #74 again: “Jesus is recorded saying in effect .... because you say you see you cannot see....if you were blind, then would you see.” This reminds me a good bit of what Aristotle said, “ The more you know, the more you know what you don’t know”. (the what is mine, it just seems to compute better for me with the what in there). I’ve thought of making this part of my signature on my profile here. It’s something that I truly believe and am old and educated enough to have experienced. Again from your post: “I have found that as we discover or uncover that which is false, that which is true surfaces of its own accord with no credit to myself.” My experience has been different in this regard. Every time I’ve discovered or uncovered what was false it seems I’ve had to fight like a cornered critter to find, discover or retrieve what is true, not to mention fight like heck to uncover what was false in the first place. This may or may not be to my credit, but I certainly did my share of the “leg work” and mental work so to speak, and will take some small, but still real credit for this. On the other hand it seems that somethings have been a gift and almost delivered into my hands. As I’ve told you above, it was about five years or more between the time I found Christ and then figured out that I didn’t have to understand Christianity and Christ in a fundamentalist, bible literalistic way. This was a good deal because I had relocated to a town with a perty good and progressive library. As much or even more than going to church I was going to the library. I felt in my gut that something was wrong or mistranslated or something with the way the bible was presented to us wasn’t quite right. At the time my most prevalent dis-concern with it was that it proclaimed certain people to be unconditionally, unquestionably and categorically right all the time, while at the same time it said that this was not humanly possible, (with the one exception of JC in the course of things). I had already been through this with my parents and with certain other persons and authority figures and was danged if I was going to spend my entire life in this position and/or kind of situation. That to me would have been like consenting to living under a very dark cloud for all of my days, with no sunshine as you say, and with only the possibility of a single star at the end of a very dark and destroying and disconcerting tunnel. Any wonder that I could not abide by or accept this? Add to it that the preacher in the church I was visiting wasn’t really all that, for me, so I was figuring this can’t be true and this can’t be what the bible is meant to be saying. I was looking at different translations and versions of the bible, seeing that they were not the same and that in certain cases in certain verses their messages were quite different. Then I found what I most nearly was really looking for, I took this one little book of the library shelf. It was called “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism” by JS Spong, which I rather think you’ve heard of, being a long term member of this website and all. Well I must have taken it out of the library and read it five times till I finally broke down and bought a copy of it for myself. My journey since then has been finding out what is real and true about God and Jesus, instead of being about whether they are actually real and true in their own right. Again from your post: “In essence concerning choices, in my view of things, people could not have chosen otherwise than they have in the past.” I tend to think somewhat differently about this, though I think in the long run and in a clearer picture you are probably right. However, I can think of a number of things I could have done differently and/or in a more timely fashion in my lifetime. One of which is that I could have been a bit more aware about the public where with all about things; things like the New York Times Best Seller List, (which granted can be a very tricky thing to sort one’s way through), and so I could have found this book by Dr. Spong a he-fe-ck of a lot sooner. I got to say I’m a bit fed up with looking back on my life and seeing that if I had been just a little more grown up, been paying just a bit more attention to ideas that I was already at least somewhat aware of, I could have saved a great deal of time, decades even, in getting to the better places that I have since come to. I feel like this is not fair and why didn’t anybody tell me anything about anything! On the other had I have to laugh at it, learn from it and figure at least I’ve gotten this far in my lifetime at all and be quite if not very thankful for that. Right now I’m thinking that where Jesus says, “One must come to the kingdom/providence of Heaven like a little child”… He really means it in more ways than one. This really is like five year old or seven or eight year old stuff. I’m thinking that I should really write down some of the mistakes or shortness of judgments that I’ve made and go over them a number of times, and for real, so that I don’t keep making them and finally really do learn from them. (I guess what I am seeing here is that I was as you say blinded by a mental habit that I’ve had that kinda goes like, “I don’t want to look at this,” so I go on making mistakes).Well all this is kind of funny to me if not completely disconcerting at the same time. I guess that some of my big lessons from my life experience and my own misjudgments is – think things out and through ahead of time,… and see what’s out there that can help me on my path, what has already been done and learnt by others,…at the same time be aware of who’s and what advice I’m taking and learn not to take any one person’s advice implicitly (except for JC, whose ideas and insights I can’t say I’m sure I’m always in touch with or in tune with all the time),… and learn to listen to my own inner voice, even if a good number other people are telling me and teaching me not to. Well I’ve got to end this post. Apologies for it being so long and even endless. I’m thinking that you being the most senior member and administrator that is active on this message board makes me want to really open up, perhaps too much and get everything said and out there. Thanks for your metaphor: “Truth is always present like the Sun whether we see it or whether it is hidden by clouds.” I’m going to hold on to this one. Peace (of mind and spirit and in many and all other ways) Eeee

I can remember walking away from the 1977 release of George Lucas's "Star Wars", thinking that his interpretation of the "Force" made a lot more sense than what we were getting in the churches at the time - without the dark-side of course. God is something like that, and more - don't forget to include Love in the true nature of God,... and again, E is without the dark-side. * *

Hi Paul, I’m thinking that the color purple still exists whether I, or anyone else for that matter, can see it or not. It may not be part of my experience, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It may not be “real to me” as you put it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t real or a real phenomenon. Just because something “isn’t real to me”, doesn’t make it unreal or nonexistent. Some things may not be everlasting or eternal, in which case hopefully some things will just evaporate from reality and no longer exist (things such as hell, or a cosmic correction center, if there is one, - or the mean lousy things some people sometimes do). In which case they will no longer be real or exist, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t exist at one time. I agree that no one can know everything, with the possible exception of JC, (and maybe a few others in or near that kind of echelon). But we can know the truth or truths that we do know. We can know some truth, or a piece of the truth, even if we don’t know everything, (or all of the truth). I guess I go with real experience. If I feel or experience the presence of God, or JC, and perceive, encounter or experience enough of this/them, then I start understanding that this is real, this isn’t just me, and that there’s (a) real positive spiritual power(s) behind, in and around everything. For me this has very little to do with books or the bible or what a group of people up the street in a building with a steeple on it are saying. (it has nothing to do with what my parents think either, which wasn't much). I just experience it, sometimes I do have to struggle or work to tune into it, and then other times I don’t, but in either case it’s a real experience of a real “entity” or “entities”, if you will, that I am experiencing. Also, this in no way makes me all that, or any more than just my own little regular, ordinary level of special, as a person. And this happens to lots of people. All of them may or may not talk about it or know how to put it into words, or be too shy to put it into words, but it’s still their real experiences. And for my time and understanding on this earth I feel that they are experiencing something real. They are not just experiencing something that is “real to them”, they are experiencing real and true and existing -somethings. If these somethings are God and/or Christ and/or the Holy Spirit, and some book(s) that were once written about them don’t quite work too well, that doesn’t mean they aren’t real, that doesn't mean they don't exist. That just means some people wrote a/some mixed-up book(s) about them. Apologies that my post has gotten so long, (again). I just couldn’t resist trying to put all this into some sort of explanatory words. Thanks again for reading E

Hi satchbee and welcome, Congratulations on your anniversary and upcoming wedding. I’m straight, but have had a number of friends who are gay and have a good friend with a close family member who is gay. There are also a few gay people at the spiritual center that I sometimes visit. I’ve known a few people who have stuck with the Catholic faith and have tried to change it from within and others who have left. I can admire both positions and hope everyone can find what they need and are looking for. I can identify with your feelings concerning a window opening and closing on how you are valued and considered with in a prominent, leading system. When Sara Palin got in as the VP candidate after Hillary had been a top running candidate for President, I felt for the first time in my life that I counted for something. That I meant something to a country that has meant so very much to me and that I finally mattered. Then Sara opened her mouth and the window closed. It was a great one day of feeling that way though, one I’ll probably remember for the rest of my life. I’m a big fan of Bishop Spong too, though not an absolute total follower. I’m new on this site too, been a member for just about a week. I really needed a place where I could express some non-literalistic ideas concerning my beliefs and Christianity and am hoping this site will work well for me. I hope that it will work well for you too. Cheers – E

Hi Mike, Welcome again to this website. I can in my own way identify with what you’ve written about having to focus on something else just to get through a sermon. In one church I was visiting, I ended up in the back row with the old timers, who would say things like, “I just had a good nap”, after a sermon. In another I’ve tuned out everything the preachers were saying and just listened to the music, (I don’t always go with all the lyrics either, but if I can tune in with most of it I figure it’s ok). I’ve sometimes watched religious programs on TV, here I’ve really made up my mind to sort out what rings true and sane and sensible for me and what does not. Sometimes I just have to turn it off, other times I feel like the show was perty good or at least ok. I’m lucky in the fact that my immediate family hasn’t given me any or much conflict about not being a “fundamentalist” or traditional type Christian. I’ve never been married and have no children, but there is my siblings and my mother. When I came out as a non-traditional or non-literalist Christian, they weren’t too much surprised. I also have a friend who is a dyed in the wool French Catholic, with a heritage that goes back at least 1,500 years in the Catholic faith. She’s really great, and is really supportive of different ideas, of different types of Christianity and new perspectives on the spirituality. I figure if I’m ok with her, with her upbringing and long heritage, then I can’t be that far off the right or clear track. Still however, I can only bring up nontraditional ideas with her every so often, there’s still a feeling that I might be rocking the boat too much or too fast. We haven’t known each other that long, so I still have to see how it will go. Like you, I’ve been very much in need of a place where I can express, share and exchange non-literalistic ideas. I finally felt so in need and alone that I googled Dr. Spongs website and that led me to this website and message board, that was just about a week ago. It probably also explains why I’m very likely writing and posting a bit too much. I’ve had to be silent for a bit too long. (apologies for this) When I first discovered Dr. Spong, I became a bit of a follower, for about a year or two. That was sometime back, now I find there are number of real points and ideas that I disagree with him about. I still really appreciate him and can even say that I love the guy. Like you say, being brave enough to challenge such traditional beliefs and hard set ideas takes real courage and some real doing. I met him once after a lecture he was giving, he signed one of his books for me and even let me give him a hug and gave one back in return at the same time. The first thing I said to him was, “I don’t agree with everything that you say”. He smiled and said, “Neither does my wife”. Then I told him, “I want to give you a hug”, and he said, “Go ahead”,… then he signed my book. You should never be afraid to think what you think or be who you are or where you’re at in terms of your faith and beliefs and ideas. Especially if you are doing it for positive ends and are really trying to help others as well clarifying and getting to the truth concerning things, for yourself. This has been hard for me too, and many times feel that I have hold back or not express too much or too fast. I guess I’ve also been lucky in that I practically cut my teeth on ideas from our Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. Freedom of religion, of speech and of the press and writing are things that I’ve learned to consider as inalienable rights and I’ll be danged if I’m gonna let anyone take them away from me or curtail them. I actually often feel like I’m sometimes fighting for two things, my ideas and insights and those of the others that I agree with, and also my inalienable rights to express them. It has been a struggle and sometimes even been a bit scary at times but I’m sticking to my guns/points so to speak. Also being a 50 something year old woman, I’ve been kept quiet too long, I think when I was younger the guys took up the idea that they would speak for us, which they didn’t really, and so for a lot of us, ideas went unsaid and a lot of needs went unrecognized, unseen and unaddressed. I don’t mean to be taking away from the fact that this is your introduction post thread or to be replacing your story with mine and me. I’ve written most of this to let you know that you’re not the only one with these challenges and injuries, and also hopefully offer a few ideas on possible ways of solving them or getting through them. I’m hoping that writing all this is ok and that it’s not too much or too soon on your post thread. Good Luck in and through the Future E

Thanks Steve, I concur with your statements most happily and glad heartedly. I wouldn't mind hearing about some of your experiences of this kind if you are open to sharing them. (if you'd rather keep them private please don't feel obligated or pressured) Peace 2U2 again E

Hi Mike, Welcome to the site. I'm perty new here too, my intro post is the one just before yours. My experience with having no one to exchange or express ideas with is somewhat similar to yours, both in the churches I've been to and with the people I know. It's because they are either too traditionalistic or too new age or because they don't have much faith or real Christian beliefs either. They are all good people, it's just that there's no one really to talk to in this regard. I had a similar experience regarding John Shelby Spong. For me it was his book "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" that really will always be a remembered experience. I hope you find at least a good piece of what you're looking for on this message board. Cheers and Smiles Elen

Hi Steve, What about if some one experiences God? or has a Christ experience? and this, even when no one of their friends, family or community members are encouraging or wanting them to do anything like this. The Buddha himself encouraged people to challenge and-or build on his ideas, this is one of the things I like about Buddhism. Peace 2U2 E

Hi Paul, (in reply to your post #73 on this thread) This has got nothing to do with societal expectations or the way most people do or don’t see. Say there was only one person on earth that could see the color purple. Purple is still a real phenomenon of color and light. If this person is the only one who can see it 'e is still seeing something real and true, and is seeing more of the light and color spectrum, that the human eye can perceive, and therefor perceives more of the truth and what is truly going on in the realm of color and light. If a dog smells and hears more than you and I do, it’s not a matter of 'es reality verses your and my reality. The dog really does pick up on more real and true sound waves then you and I do, and more real sent fumes too. The dog is more perceptive concerning sound and sent and picks up on more real true sounds and scents. One could say that 'e is more aware of the truth or more in tune with the truth concerning sent and sound. These are real scents and sounds whether you and I can perceive them or not. A color blind person does not see the truth; he doesn’t see the truth concerning light reflected off colored or pigmented objects. This is not a moral judgment; there is nothing morally wrong with this person. It’s not like he doesn’t see the “truth” that one shouldn’t go around cutting down and messing with everyone he meets. There is nothing wrong with this person; he just doesn’t see the vibrations and wavelengths present in light reflected as red, because of the cells in his eyes are not of the type that can detect them. The light waves are still truly there, they are still a true and real thing, he just can’t see them. You say: “Please know that I will always participate in these debates in a friendly way. Sometimes I hold strong views and may try too hard to convince others to hold my point of view, but I am aware of this shortcoming and try to reign myself in from time to time. ” – me too - thanks Cheers – E

Joe - is Joe ok or do you prefer Joseph? I have to think about this for a bit - but thanks for the reply. As I wrote on a post to you above on this thread - I believe there is such a thing as a person's "true Christ self". It doesn't exclude one's own personal identity. It's not like a person has to just become Christ himself and have no identity or consciousness or self of their own. Still there's something in the union here, with Christ, that A) makes it possible for a person to be their own true self and B] makes or enables a person be the best them that they can be. It's really hard to explain, and as I don't have too much experience, even in being my own true C self, I don't know if I'd be the best person to put it into words. I'm thinking that maybe it can be an image, but it's a true living image, rather than a fixed, static one. Thanks for all your time and ideas and replies on this website. & Cheers - E

Hi soma, It seems that your last post to me on this thread is very much the same as the one you left me on my intro thread – correct me if I’m wrong about this. I guess I’m going to reply to most of it here, except for the parts on heaven and hell, which are only in your post on my intro thread. From your last post on this thread: “I like thinking about these things with my mind and need to answer these questions so my mind will be quiet and I can go beyond it to the soul.” I’m kind of trying to get away from the separations that I’ve heard a good deal about, both from people I know and with more public philosophical/psychological speakers. Separating the mind, the soul, the heart, the spirit, the emotions, the body, this and that part of the body,… what else is there, the id and the ego I suppose. Also the conscious and the unconscious and the semi-conscious… Maybe we can use a word like psychology or psyche to cover it all. My thing is to kind of have them all operating at once and in sync and even sometimes in harmony instead of just being at and in one of them at the time. Yes, sometimes one is more in the heart, other times one is more in the soul or the mind, but deleting or deriding one in favor of the others or any combination of this sort of thing, tends to make me feel like it could put a person out of balance with in themselves and then prob with the/their Higher Power and the rest of Creation. Again from your last post: “our mind presumes that it knows the way just because it knows what it is looking for and that is to be right and prevail over others.” I don’t necessarily think that this is the natural state of the “mind”. Or that everyone thinks this way. Yeah people kind of want to be right, partly because the alternative of necessity is to be wrong, and not too many people are too into that. And people want to be right or want to get to what’s right and get to the (here’s that word again) truth, because living with dysfunctional/wrong and untrue ideas can be painful, confusing and derailing. But to prevail over others??? Yeah if someone is gonna shoot down a room full of people with a glock, yeah yous agonna wanna prevail over them,... but as a general state of being?.... & I suppose people want other people to have it somewhat together because dealing with someone who’s totally untogether can be hard and strenuous painful work and really irritating. But to prevail over others just to say – hi, I’m the big shot – I don’t know. Also most people over the age of 20 something can figure this out and aren’t so impressed by it all that much, or in any which way, anyways. What keeps coming to mind is Jesus, quoted as saying “Love God with all your mind…” so this would clearly be a statement edifying that one can love with one’s mind. That the mind can be a faculty for kindness, consideration, intelligence and love. Now the “Mind of God” might be trying to prevail over some others cause they are doing a bunch of mean, lousy, crappy, harmful things,… but still this is for their good as much and possibly even more, and for the good of all others. “When one harms others, one harms themselves the most, because they are harming their inner spirit and psyche and consciousness.” The previous quote is a spinoff of one from a John Wayne movie called “The Angel and the Bad Man”. I think a lot of people want other people to prevail over themselves and in doing so, stop bugging them. Assuming or taking the stance that a person can’t run their own life, belittles humanity and defines us all as being helpless, useless, less than children. I’m thinking that I could really give you a challenge and a run for your time concerning some of the ideas in your last post to me here. Do you think you’d be up to it or even maybe would get into it a bit? I’m hoping that when we have different ideas that it’s all good and that we are all really here for each other benefit as well and equal to our own. I’m recovering from a cold, and also don’t always have that much time, so I’d have to work within these limits. Right now I’m out of time and energy so any more will have to wait for another time. Cheers - E

Joseph, Can we not have a "self-image" of our "true self", or a 'true self image' even if it's different from the "ego's" self-image? (that is in the context that you are using the word ego here)

I think we need to believe in something, that's just the way we are wired and that's that. It's the nature of the fuzzy fur-ball. It's probably the beast too, but the beast can only believe in himself and gets all strung out and wired up if he can't so lets not talk about him too much. actually forget I mentioned him

I really like them. I'm going to copy and paste them to a page on my hard drive so I have them available. here's on for you: What about believing in what you experience? Cheers