PaulS

I'm probably better at knowing what I don't believe about God, than what I do!

Misquoting Jesus by Bart Erhman gives some insights to significant alterations, but as we don't have any original documents and the oldest versions of any New Testament writings are still hundreds of years older than their originals, it is impossible to say what changes may have been made. Certainly evidence such as the Nag Hammadi texts and other Christian writings from the early centuries of Christianity, show there were plenty of other opinions and views about Jesus & God than what we ended up with in the 'Bible' as it was declared in the 300's CE. Sometimes biblical scholars point out facts such as Matthew's misinterpretation of Isaiah when he writes about the birth of Jesus - Matthew used a faulty Greek version of Isaiah to misinterpret 'young women' to 'virgin'. Subsequently, it is believed the myth of Jesus' virgin birth has arisen from such a mistranslation. I wonder if the fact that such errors are still in there may be some evidence that some documents are still true to when they were first written. But as Joseph mentions in part above, there are so many inconsistencies and errors in fact, not to mention the outright bigotry, sexism and racism in the Bible that it is impossible to an open minded person to regard it as the infallible Word of God. To the contrary, the Bible is a mish-mash of various interpretations and understandings of God made by a variety of authors, in a wide variety of political and cultural contexts of the day. And bear in mind that these authors thought the world was flat, that epilepsy = demonic possession, and that many in the early Christian days actually thought Jesus was returning in THAT generation. When the return of Jesus did not eventuate, Christians need to come up with a new understanding and is still demonstrated, even to this day 2000years later, that Christians are still trying to pin the return of Jesus on different translations of the Bible.

SW, Unfortunately those feelings still come back to haunt me every now and again, to this day. Indoctrination from childhood can have lasting ill effects! I grew up in a fundy household but became the black sheep when at 18 I joined the police force and had my eyes opened to how many other people live. This made me question what I'd been taught about man choosing to sin and needing to wake up to himself and accept Jesus. I knew nothing of progressive Christianity 28yrs ago so mainly I felt anger towards God for being such an a#£hole! I couldn't reconcile God's 'justice', the way I had been taught, with what I was seeing. Anyway, I turn 46 this year and I can't say that I never question the possibility of hell etc, but I usually easily satisfy my doubts by recalling what I have learnt from various biblical scholars, which reiterates for me that all this theology business is just mankind trying to express his/her way of experiencing God. It seems very different for different people (often culture related) and always subject to interpretation (with healthy doses of indoctrination and lack of questioning usually!). It gets easier with time and education. Understanding the biblical scholarship of the last 200 years really helped for me, but I do wish PC was known to me then - I think it would have saved me a lot of pain. Peace and goodwill. Paul

If God is a God of love, I fail to see how you loving an atheist could be a bad thing! I'm probably not the best to ask because I don't believe in a God who is 'displeased' with humans as though we are little schoolchildren. I've been there and done that with fundy Christianity and can only thank God that I saw the light and hightailed it out of there! Peace and goodwill. Paul

Welcome SouthernWonder, Indeed, to move away from the shackles of conservative fundamentalism can be very exciting! I hope you enjoy participating here and find lots of useful information. Cheers Paul

Welcome Chris, I'm glad you found this forum. Many people here have travelled that journey of having their views of what they understood the bible to be about, challenged. I'm in Australia, so my university reference might be no good, but the Murdoch University in Western Australia (a secular private university) offers Theology (I looked into it but never proceeded due to work commitments) and their school seemed very progressive. A professor there (Bill Loader) wrote a resource freely available on the internet called "Dear Kim - This is what I believe". I enjoyed his understanding of Jesus & the bible. Cheers Paul

Just as an aside, I read a fun book the other day that I'm sure would qualify for similar criticism as that received by Buck. The book is called "Lamb - The Gospel according to Biff, Christ's childhood pal". Quite funny and definitely heretical to any red-blooded literalist/fundamentalist!

Whylago, Are you looking for books about progressive Christianity, about biblical scholarship, about the historical Jesus, or about religion in general? Not knowing specifically what you're after, I'll suggest some of my favoured authors anyway: Marcus Borg John Shelby Spong Elaine Pagels Bart Erhman Philip Gulley Dianna Butler Bass Karen Armstrong Richard Dawkins ...to name a few. Cheers Paul

Higherlove, Welcome, and I'm sure you will find the discussions here interesting, perhaps revealing, and certainly without judgement. I hope you enjoy. Cheers Paul

Buck, I don't know how the 'movement' overall may approach this, but for me I simply don't care about any attacks. In fact, who should! I'm not here to win a war, but to live and enjoy my life and help others where I can (because it makes me feel good). However that threatens or angers literalists doesn't really matter to me. Cheers Paul

Hi Jeanie & Blake, Welcome. I hope you enjoy it here and I look forward to participating in discussion with you. Cheers Paul

Welcome Dude - I love the Big Lebowski! Looking forward to getting to know you more and your fellowship here. Cheers Paul

Karl, I am sure you will enjoy being a part of this community! Welcome, Cheers Paul

http://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/

Daniel, That sounds like a truly beautiful and touching experience, and such a great one to have before your father passed away so as to perhaps give you peace that he will be okay! Thanks for sharing. Paul

Thanks for sharing that, Buck.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest known copies of anything from the Hebrew Bible, including parts of the Torah (what Christians may refer to as the first 5 books of the OT). There apparently was a scroll rediscovered in a Bolgona university last May that has apparently been dated to about 1200CE, which would make it the oldest known copy of the Torah, but I don't think it is available for online viewing. I'm not really sure what/where is regarded as the oldest known stand-alone version of the Torah otherwise.

Hi Buck, Welcome to the forum. There are no known original texts of the bible. I think the Dead Sea Scolls are attributed as the oldest OT docs and you can view them here: http://dss.collections.imj.org.il As for the NT, I think (but I could be wrong) that there are a couple of sources attributed as the oldest copies of the NT (again, there are no known originals), the Codex Sinaiticus being one of them. You can view the digitally here: http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/ Cheers Paul

Welcome Cinna, I'm glad you have found this forum and I hope it serves you well (I'm sure it will) Many people here have experienced challenges in belief proposed by conservative/fundamental Christianity and I'm sure you'll find plenty of spirited discussion here around many of the 'sticking points' of conservative Christianity. I'm not all that familiar with the Christian apologist, Lee Strobel, other than having read a few articles debunking his 'evidence' for much of what he says. There may be some truth in his words for all I know, but I think it's awesome that you are a fan of treating people well and living your life as best you can - if only religion was left to be so simple! All the best Paul

Daniel, It sounds to me that you are finding out the truth for yourself and coming to your own logical and spiritual conclusions that the devil and demons don't exist in any personal sense, and that your schizophrenia is simply an illness and mental disorder. I don't mean there is anything 'simple' about having schizophrenia but rather that in a medical sense it is no different to any other illness or mental disorder we as humans may inherit or develop. I don't believe for a minute that someone with cancer is demon-possessed, or a child born with MS or autism is demon-possessed, and similarly your schizophrenia has nothing to do with demons and/or demon-possession. I wish you well and hope that participating here is benefiting you on your life journey. Cheers Paul

I read Zealot awhile ago, so am trying to remember Aslan's best points. I can't say I have looked into his assertions anymore than reading his book. I found his interpretation/understanding of Jesus's life to be plausible,feasible, and perhaps even likely. However, I think one needs to be cautious about 'facts' from that period and locale, because there just doesn't seem to be a lot about. I think there was some supposition on Aslan's part, but it did seem to make more sense to me than any other understanding I have had of Jesus' life.

I've got that one on my shelf waiting for my attention, Rom. Norm's spot on when he notes that it's probably not coincidence that as mankind has evolved, so has its God(s). I find that Christians have seemed to have anything but a 'personal relationship with Jesus' until the last few centuries, if even that early.

For me in isn't an issue because I don't believe in an interventionist God. I imagine if one believes in an interventionist God they must rationalise God's inaction in this area much like they would concerning famine, genocide, paedophilia, and other misery & tragedy that seems to befall innocent people.

On the Messageboard front page there is a section called "Watercooler" and under that there is a subsection called "Progressive Christianity Café". This section is for off topic discussion and would probably be the best place to raise the question. Perhaps a thread titled "Anyone from Kansas or Joplin?" might make it easier for those interested to see.

Welcome GeanieBeanie, I have found this forum an excellent place to explore, discuss, debate and share ideas, without judgement or being made to feel 'wrong'. There is a lot of respect shown here for people's different takes on things. I am sure you will enjoy participating here (they're a nice bunch really ) Cheers Paul