PaulS

Welcome Bruce, Sounds like a lovely approach to Church! Cheers Paul

Like the word 'God', I think the word 'Spiritual' can be loaded too. That is to say, like Joseph discusses, being spiritual could fit anywhere on a 1 to 100 scale. I think there can be spritual people (like me) who are atheist yet leave a little crack open for the possibility that there is something 'behind' their life and that perhaps they do have a spirit as well as their mind, right through to a spiritual person who may believe they communicate with the 'other side" etc. Perhaps somewhere in the middle are people who believe there is a God but which/who is nothing like the Bible God, and they might feel they have some connection or purpose relating to this God/force/entity. I think I am starting to get used to the fact that I am none the wiser about any of this for my nearly 47 years on this planet, and perhaps may never 'know' the answer. I am becoming more comfortable with the uncertainty of it all.

Hi Stardust and welcome, It was a real eye-opener for me also to realise that fundamental Christianity wasn't the only way of interpreting/understanding the bible. I was raised a fundy Christian but left the fold around 19 when I awoke to the biased injustice of that religion's Bible God. At first it was an anger towards that God and then a kind of 'block it all out for 20 years' before I began looking back into Christianity and found progressive Christianity as an understanding of Christianity that made so much more sense to me. I liked reading sermons by a Quaker named Phil Gulley who posts them on his Gracetalks site. I watched a few videos of Bishop Jack Spong too. And I don't know the link these days but it was on this forum that I was directed to an excellent series of free audio university lectures on biblical scholarship, particularlly around the Old Testament, which i found quite fascinating and illuminating (nothing you'd ever hear raised in a fundamnetal church certainly). I hope you find the resources and archives here useful. Cheers Paul

Ally, If you're inteersted in Spong there are a lot of video clips and writings available from simply Googling his name. Otherwise there are of course a number of his books available in hard copy or electronically (Kindle). Cheers Paul

Deva, May whichever way you go, work out well for you. Cheers Paul

The funny thing was that at first, it was simpy textbook anxiety. I had a pain in my chest, went to the doctor who told me I was experiencing anxiety (due to the financial stresses I had been under for some months) and that was that, much like being diagnosed with any other physical melody. I was pleased with that diagnosis, went out and got a book about General Anxiety Disorder, and for a day at least felt like everything would be fine and I'd sort that stuff out. Unfortunately, a friend who I was co-invested with on a few fronts is a fundamental evangelical. I had to attend his house the 2nd day after the doctors and I told himk what was going on. He proceeded to tell me that it was God's way of calling me back and WHACK, twenty-odd years of turning my back on Christianity came back to haunt me in a big way! Sitting there on his deck I envisioned a sky-battle between Jesus and Satan and form there I collapsed into 9 months of deep anxiety and depression - anxious about going to Hell and depressed because I couldn't believe what I was 'supposed' to believe to not go there! Anyway, the positive out of all that some 7 or so years ago was that I then did an awful lot of reading and research which only served to reassure me and concrete in exactly why I had given away that Christianity some 20 years earlier.

Having suffered depression and anxiety myself in my 40's, I can only imagine how turbulent your psychotic experience must have been and how perhaps well-intentioned family may have made it alot worse. During my expereince I was told that it was "God's way of calling me back". I would suggest that is not the best advice to offer somebody suffering a mental illness!

Yes, it is difficult to reconcile sometimes. I grew up within fundamentalist Christianity and am working on letting all that baggage go, but I abandoned those beliefs when I was 18 and am still dealing with issues today at 47yrs! My parents are still fervent believers and my sister is a missionary (so to speak) in Mexico, so I still have it attached to my life. It helps me a little to understand that we are all creatures of our environment, upbringing, and experiences. Some of us can challenge previously held beliefs, others find that a threat to their security. Being part of a religous community offers much to people - nothing like being surrounded by a group of like-minded individuals to help us feel secure and part of a community!

1. No attendance excrept maybe for a wedding 2. Meditation & volunteering - although I don't regard either of these as a religous practice. Meditation is good for you just like eating well and getting enough sleep. Volunteering is simply my way of contributing to our community. 3. I could express them but nobody would really be all that inteersted. I don't move in religous circiles so I don't face criticism, but my circle of friends aren't particularly interested in PC either, so it's not something that often comes up.

Charles, In my opinion I don't think anybody can say with certainly just how many disciples there were and exactly who they were. I think Spong makes some very logical points about 'the 12' more about linking Jesus to the Twelve Tribes of Israel rather than a numercial fact. And with the Gospels not being written until decades and decades after Jesus' death, I don't think we can take them as gospel concerning facts like the numbers and names of disciples. The contracdictory accounts of Jusdas' death introduce doubt about accuracy also. Cheers Paul

Overcast, In short, I think if Jesus did exist he was amazingly human, just like any of us are. He may/may not have said certain things which meant a great deal to the people he was speaking to or who developed them later on (bearing in mind the gospels were written decades after Jesus' existence and more than likely not by people who ever actually met Jesus). To question any of this is proper and should not be regarded as criticism (which is how it is instantly heard by those who don't want their security rocked). Regarding the 8 points - I label myself most days as an atheist, but I feel that I fit into the 8 points and don't care that other Christians might say I can't enter their club! My interpretation of the 8 points require no 'belief' in a God. I accept that some might believe and that works for them. But to me, God or no God, I can still experience a scaredness, oneness and unity with all because after all, we are all from the same stardust! Much of what is attributed to Jesus makes sense to me as a beneficial way to live, as do many of the words of Buddha and other religous and non-religous greats. So being atheist doesn't preclude anybody from being a PC, IMO anyway. Cheers Paul

Welcome Overcast, As an atheist myself, also with a strong Christian upbringing, Progressive Christianity has really opened my eyes to a new Christianity, a Christianity that I can understand muc better than the fundamental beliefs I was raised on. I hope you enjoy it here. Cheers Paul

Hi Bobbie, I'm really glad you found this forum and am looking forward to getting to know you also. There's a wealth of material archived here from heaps of discussions which you may find very interesting and useful, but don't be afraid to step in and kick off any discussion of your own. Cheers Paul

Welcome Lucas, I'm glad you've found the forum and I hope you enjoy participating here. Btw, I am well in my part of the world - Western Australia. Cheers Paul

Sorry, I'm lost. Who's Don Caron and what is his concern? I'm not real strong on Catholic ways Peter, but if you're looking for books that may help you think less traditionally about Christianity, could I recommend Spong, Borg and Erhmann. Cheers Paul

I'll just settle for people understanding that what was written thousands of years ago, across hundred of years, by individuals from a variety of times and societal settings, are just opinion pieces and can be scrutinised against the light and understandings of 2015.

Welcome Dantottle, You've inadvertently introduced yourself on zzmel's thread instead of perhaps creating your own, but welcome all the same. I hope you enjoy what you find here and I look forward to discussion with you. I'm sure you would have some interesting experiences and takes on life after your time in Haiiti. Cheers Paul

I didn't mean hardship in a material sense but rather in the sense that one finds life 'hard'. So in that sense, salvation for them is understanding how to be at ease with life. I think that's what you were alluding to as well, Joseph.

It doesn't mean much to me because I don't think we need saving from anything. I know some people use it in the context of 'saving' them from a life of hardship by offering them the tools to live an abundant and fulfilling life - In that sense I could accept certain mind processes/beliefs as being a type of salvation for some.

I think the farmer's 'maybe' perhaps demonstrated acceptance that we humans are condemned to make choices consciously restricted to limited perspectives. So instead of making a choice based on limited perspective, perhaps the farmer knew there could be other 'choices' or ways of looking at the current situation.

Welcome Ella Jay, I'm glad you found this forum and I hope you enjoy it here. Cheers Paul

I mesh it quite simply (for me). There is no Satan, no demented spirit out to 'get you' or cause you to not connect with God. Satan, the Devil, 'Evil' are human constructs and attempts to explain why bad things happen to good people. They just do!

As I said in your other post zzmel, welcome to the forum. Incidentally, what a difference a letter can make in our communications. There is a place not far from me called Jurien WA (i.e. Jurien, Western Australia)! Maybe that's where a lot of our religious beliefs get confused - If I believed the Saviour came from Jurien WA but you mistranslated me to by saying Burien WA, generations in the future could be mistaken that the Son of God was born in America and not Australia. Of course, the various authors of the books that make up the library of the bible would never have made such mistakes.

From the other side of the world zzmel (Australia), let me welcome you to the messageboard and wish you well. I don't think anybody can tell you exactly what a 'true Christian' is. Those that started Christianity some 2000 years ago called it 'The Way' but apart from that, our knowledge is fairly limited. Certainly early Christians regarded Jesus as their Teacher/example, but the Son Of God tag and him being a personal blood sacrifice for those that believe so, developed later. And just how you got to 'Heaven' has changed alot throughout the ages. More recently, the last 100 or so years, it has been about holding the 'right' belief. Before that it was about 'trust' in God. Before that, who knows, and in the OT there isn't even any mention about getting to heaven unless God picked you (think Moses, Elijah). So those who tell you there is only one single way to get to Heaven are simply a product of their times and I don't personally think hold the answer anymore than our ancestors who may have been just as certain with some other 'way'. I too fall into the agnostic camp. I certainly can't make sense of any conditionally-loving God (i.e. believe in Jesus or he won't love you), or even imagine how one could live forever in some sort of hidden parallel universe. However, there are a lot of things I don't know/understand, so maybe an afterlife is one of them. That said, if there is a 'God' waiting on the other side, I simply cannot for the life of me imagine that he is going to hold me eternally responsible for my limited decisons and thought-process in my relatively short life (compared to all eternity) on this little blue dot. I have read some quote 'embrace the mystery' of death, and for me this works. It is mysterious, I am uncertain, one day I may find out, but I just can't imagine it being a 'bad' thing. Cheers Paul

Personally Barb, I think it probably makes you a more traditional Christian than today's fundamentalists would have you believe. Jesus never sought worship, declared himself as 'Lord', or expected people to believe he had come to die as a blood sacrifice to please God. What Jesus was about was encouraging people to live a life closer to God. Following his teachings certainly help a lot of people feel closer to God, just as many others find different ways to be closer to God. If you look to Jesus as your teacher then that makes you Christian, certainly. I hope you enjoy participating here. Paul