romansh Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 (edited) As usual you did not address my point, whether or not I am welcome in your eyes. You start another thread and see if I'll follow. Dude Edited March 7, 2020 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 (edited) 47 minutes ago, romansh said: ..........you did not address my point, whether or not I am welcome in your eyes. You start another thread and see if I'll follow You predated me on this forum and, for me, 'old- timers,' newbies and all in-betweens are welcome. I did use the 'welcome' in a different sense but since you asked, indeed you are welcome - however ease up a tad. I have no present interest in starting a new thread on certain topics but if I do, you're always welcome. I have no problem with any conversation: discussion, disagreement and debate are fine - just not dismissal and disparagement. Edited March 7, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 Good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 1 hour ago, romansh said: Good Am I correct that we are also welcome in your eyes and by you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 8, 2020 Author Share Posted March 8, 2020 9 hours ago, Burl said: No. People are welcome to hold cynical and bigoted opinions against Christianity but this is not the place for attacks on other people’s faith beliefs. There is a huge difference between sharing one’s spiritual path and cynically vandalizing the spiritual path of others. If I was a Muslim, who strongly believed that God wanted me to slit the throats of infidels or fly planes into heavily populated buildings, would you consider attacking or vandalising my spiritual path? But I digress. What I mean to say is that it's a bit if a straw man argument to take offence because one states concerns that they see about particular religious beliefs. The nature of discussion, and quite obviously a thread that I started here that clearly doesn't align with some views of Christianity, is always going to be a difficult topic for some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 11 minutes ago, PaulS said: If I was a Muslim, who strongly believed that God wanted me to slit the throats of infidels or fly planes into heavily populated buildings, would you consider attacking or vandalising my spiritual path? But I digress. What I mean to say is that it's a bit if a straw man argument to take offence because one states concerns that they see about particular religious beliefs. The nature of discussion, and quite obviously a thread that I started here that clearly doesn't align with some views of Christianity, is always going to be a difficult topic for some. If you could just restrain your bigotry against Christians instead of adding in anti-muslim bigotry that would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 8, 2020 Author Share Posted March 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, Burl said: If you could just restrain your bigotry against Christians instead of adding in anti-muslim bigotry that would be great. Anyone who can read this knows I am not being bigoted Burl - you do too. I think most here would understand that what I questioned does not apply to many Muslims, just as beliefs of an eternal, tormenting hell doesn't come from the mouths of all Christians. Sorry you feel offended and challenged that somebody else finds elements of Christian religious belief (not all Christians) offensive. You seem to be saying that it's okay for them to say what they believe even if it offends me, but if I should dare express what I find offensive about their beliefs then I am in the wrong. I think we should all be mature enough here to have an open conversation and be able to deal with other people's differences without losing too much sleep over offense. Peace and goodwill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 8, 2020 Author Share Posted March 8, 2020 5 hours ago, Burl said: Rom, this is a spiritual forum not a scientific one. We are not on a fact finding mission. We are trying to maintain a sense of wonder, inquisitiveness, and attune our perceptions to revelation and enlightenment. I would substitute 'we' for perhaps the word 'some'. Personally I'd prefer if you didn't speak on my behalf, Burl. I do like fact finding and would enjoy other threads with Rom where we can dig down into some more 'concrete' matters. For me personally, I think sense of wonder, inquisitiveness, and attune our perceptions to revelation and enlightenment, go hand in hand with facts. The alternative seems to be saying "we don't want facts to get in the way of a good story". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 (edited) 51 minutes ago, PaulS said: If I was a Muslim, who strongly believed that God wanted me to slit the throats of infidels or fly planes into heavily populated buildings, would you consider attacking or vandalising my spiritual path? But I digress. What I mean to say is that it's a bit if a straw man argument to take offence because one states concerns that they see about particular religious beliefs. The nature of discussion, and quite obviously a thread that I started here that clearly doesn't align with some views of Christianity, is always going to be a difficult topic for some. Since any can participate on any thread, my answer is no - not on a forum such as this. I would disagree, debate, pose questions, present my stance and try to say something that might give you pause but where would attacking and vandalizing you get any of us on such a forum? It's just an internet forum, there is no slitting or bombing.. Plus one wonders if such an individual who was truthful about slitting throats and attacking populated buildings would actually be a part of it given the 8 points. There is no straw man. Burl, a long time member, seems to be taking offense and believes that his Christian views are being attacked on this PC forum. Good god, the statement has been made that there could be harm to the 'community' because of some expression of particular beliefs. Really? Harm to the community? It's valid to give one's own position but what is the concern over the religious beliefs of other members? Either let it be, let them present their position or belief and move on to another thread or simply say "here is my belief" and state it, perhaps provide some support and let it be. It seems the problem is someone thinking they have a right to be concern if X, Y, or Z believes something that they don't. Not sure what topic you are referring to but people can opt in or out but if any opt in, there should be no need to attack or vandalize another's beliefs, right? Edited March 8, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 8, 2020 Author Share Posted March 8, 2020 6 hours ago, thormas said: Since any can participate on any thread, my answer is no - not on a forum such as this. I would disagree, debate, pose questions, present my stance and try to say something that might give you pause but where would attacking and vandalizing you get any of us on such a forum? It's just an internet forum, there is no slitting or bombing.. Plus one wonders if such an individual who was truthful about slitting throats and attacking populated buildings would actually be a part of it given the 8 points. And of course, that is your entitlement. Personally, I have no issue with condemning crazy Islamic beliefs such as throat slitting and suicide bombing, whilst simultaneously noting these are believed by ‘some’, not all Muslims. Like others may feel the need to speak out for Jesus, sometimes I feel the need to speak out for humankind. As an aside, the Forum only asks for general acceptance of the 8 points if participating specifically in the Prgogressive Christianity thread, not the overall forum. But I agree that most likely a fanatical Muslim wouldn’t make their way here. Quote There is no straw man. Burl, a long time member, seems to be taking offense and believes that his Christian views are being attacked on this PC forum. Good god, the statement has been made that there could be harm to the 'community' because of some expression of particular beliefs. Really? Harm to the community? Just because one chooses to take offence shouldn’t mean people can’t discuss things that they find offensive themselves. Yes, absolutely expression of particular beliefs can harm the community. Surely you aren’t saying that all religious belief is harmless to the community? Good god, do you think a parent telling a child that they will suffer in an eternal hell if they don’t believe the same as their parents about Jesus, is not harmful! What about other expressions of particular beliefs such as abortion, homosexuality, divorce etc - you don't think expressing these beliefs can/has caused harm to our communities? Let's not race to defend 'Christianity' as though the worlds depends on it - let's talk about the issues if one wants to, or at least let those who want to discuss the issue discuss it amongst themselves. Quote It's valid to give one's own position but what is the concern over the religious beliefs of other members? Either let it be, let them present their position or belief and move on to another thread or simply say "here is my belief" and state it, perhaps provide some support and let it be. It seems the problem is someone thinking they have a right to be concern if X, Y, or Z believes something that they don't. That’s what I was doing. I started this thread on heaven and hell to point out the misunderstanding and wrong teachings that much of Christianity has taught through the ages. I stated that it has caused harm. I was responding directly to a post by Rom when Burl felt it necessary to be offended and to add his two pennies worth. Burl has taken offence rather than accept I have another view to him. I’m good with that. He appears not. Quote Not sure what topic you are referring to but people can opt in or out but if any opt in, there should be no need to attack or vandalize another's beliefs, right? I think you need to re-read the thread and see how the conversation came about. I wasn’t attacking or vandalising anybody’s beliefs in particular that I was aware of - I was simply discussing some Christian teachings that I find repugnant. In fact, it’s my hope that all Christians will one day find the teaching of an eternal place of damnation and torture for non-believers as repugnant. Particularly as such teaching isn’t even supported by Christianity’s own scriptures. Fred Plummer, the Founder of the Progressive Christianity homepage connected to here puts it this way: https://progressivechristianity.org/resources/to-hell-with-hell/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 8, 2020 Author Share Posted March 8, 2020 Some further interesting articles about Hell published on the ProgressiveChristianity.org website: https://progressivechristianity.org/resources/does-it-matter-which-religion-you-pick-is-there-a-hell/ https://progressivechristianity.org/resources/progressive-christianity-on-the-concept-of-hell/ https://progressivechristianity.org/resources/bishop-spong-on-hell/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 14 hours ago, PaulS said: And of course, that is your entitlement. Personally, I have no issue with condemning crazy Islamic beliefs such as throat slitting and suicide bombing, whilst simultaneously noting these are believed by ‘some’, not all Muslims. Like others may feel the need to speak out for Jesus, sometimes I feel the need to speak out for humankind. As an aside, the Forum only asks for general acceptance of the 8 points if participating specifically in the Prgogressive Christianity thread, not the overall forum. But I agree that most likely a fanatical Muslim wouldn’t make their way here. Just because one chooses to take offence shouldn’t mean people can’t discuss things that they find offensive themselves. Yes, absolutely expression of particular beliefs can harm the community. Surely you aren’t saying that all religious belief is harmless to the community? Good god, do you think a parent telling a child that they will suffer in an eternal hell if they don’t believe the same as their parents about Jesus, is not harmful! What about other expressions of particular beliefs such as abortion, homosexuality, divorce etc - you don't think expressing these beliefs can/has caused harm to our communities? Let's not race to defend 'Christianity' as though the worlds depends on it - let's talk about the issues if one wants to, or at least let those who want to discuss the issue discuss it amongst themselves. That’s what I was doing. I started this thread on heaven and hell to point out the misunderstanding and wrong teachings that much of Christianity has taught through the ages. I stated that it has caused harm. I was responding directly to a post by Rom when Burl felt it necessary to be offended and to add his two pennies worth. Burl has taken offence rather than accept I have another view to him. I’m good with that. He appears not. I think you need to re-read the thread and see how the conversation came about. I wasn’t attacking or vandalising anybody’s beliefs in particular that I was aware of - I was simply discussing some Christian teachings that I find repugnant. In fact, it’s my hope that all Christians will one day find the teaching of an eternal place of damnation and torture for non-believers as repugnant. Particularly as such teaching isn’t even supported by Christianity’s own scriptures. Thank you … a thoughtful reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 14 hours ago, PaulS said: Paul, you offered an opinion on 'what Christianity has done in teaching the prospect of hell ....caused much of the pain and heartache in the world." That is truly loaded and I can see why some, why Burl, might actually be offended. You, I assume out of you personal experience, blame Christianity with much of the world's pain. This is an opinion but the 'causing much pain' really must be established, outside of your personal experience, in order to support such a broad condemnation. As an aside and out of my personal experience, I was taught from a very early time about Hell, being born sinners and the need to go to weekly confession, etc. - except it was never that dark for us as I was part of the wider world and we knew we were good people, the world was pretty good, God and Jesus really loved us and actually you only go to Hell if you die in mortal sin and mortal sins are not typically committed by kids or teenagers or actually most people in the world. So we knew about Hell but the overriding image for us, for me, was the guy on the huge cross in the Church who 'died for me.' I was forgiven and saved - how cool was that. So there was not a great deal of pain and heartache in the world we knew and for the occasions when there were, we still knew we were loved, we were not mortal sinners and Heaven was out big H (not Hell). BTW, we were not psychologically abused. So whereas I just read what you wrote with a glance (and an interest also in Bart's new book), Burl's reacted a bit more personally. I simply thought you were wrong :+} There is no way to establish (prove) what you have said about Christianity. However, if you see if from Burl's POV, you blame Christianity for a great deal of the world's pain and suffering (never giving the other side) and you take one of their beliefs, Hell and call it nonsense. I suspect there is more nuance to the Hell discussion than you seem to allow: the issue is an eternal hell of torment but is there something to the 'loss of God (i.e. hell) that is not eternal? You can't know for sure, what is true So it may be nonsense but it might not be. Just out of curiosity what scholars were talking about which early Christians not believing in Hell? And was it eternal Hell or all ideas of Hell? While I agree there is no eternal Hell because I believe in universal salvation, I do allow for the reality of a temporary hell (again separation from God) so it might not be the 'untruth' you 'believe' it is. As a side note when Burl or others speak out for Jesus, they are also speaking out for humankind. 15 hours ago, PaulS said: What exact belief expressions (not the extremes you have given but actual beliefs of members) have caused the 'community' harm? I actually can't think of a belief, religious or otherwise, that actually caused me harm in the past 3+ years on this site. There are some I disagreed with, some I really disagree with - but harm? How can I (or anyone) be harmed by an expression of belief by a person on a PC site - unless they are spewing hate which is not allowed. The most you can say is a belief caused you harm (and the onus is then on you to explain how you were harmed), you cannot speak for the community as a whole, not even this little site group. I, for one, am not racing to defend Christianity nor do I need to. We're on a PC site, p as in progressive, and on the 3 such sites that I am on, the vast, vast majority does not accept older, conservative versions of Christianity or theistic three-tiered based explanations of Christian beliefs. They know their Christian history and condemn inquisitions, burnings, anti-semiticism, climate change denial, crusades, exploitation in the name of religion, and are aware of the insights of many biblical scholars and theologians. What is there to defend? There is no need to defend Christianity but there is a need and desire to explain a more progressive take on Christianity: thus the PC organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 17 hours ago, PaulS said: In fact, it’s my hope that all Christians will one day find the teaching of an eternal place of damnation and torture for non-believers as repugnant. Particularly as such teaching isn’t even supported by Christianity’s own scriptures. I agree that eternal damnation of any is repugnant. However, Christianity is not based solely in their scriptures and not all teaching is found in scripture. Even when the eternal Hell is rejected, Christians and many people will wonder about after-death and will wonder about evil man when compared to the really good man or woman. Will they both 'go to heaven' and if they do, couldn't we all have just led evil or bad lives? And if they both go to heaven, why did Jesus bother to teach about living the 2 great commandments? And, it seems obvious that people need more than one lifetime to 'get it right.' Do they go straight to heaven, do they have other lives to work on it? For some, are there consequences given their earthly life if they never had God here, does that loss somehow continue, i.e. hell? There are many questions and scripture might provide some insight as do the writings of Christian thinkers, including those early Christians you mention above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elen1107 Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 On 3/6/2020 at 10:12 AM, thormas said: I have, I live near where he teaches (my daughter also went to school at UNC-Chapel Hill) and I have been to a few of his book readings but also some of his presentations. There is a program at UNC called Adventures in Ideas and they invite different professors to speak on art, literature, history, theater, philosophy, religion, etc. A presentation usually begins on a Friday afternoon, goes into the night (with a dinner break) and then picks up Saturday morning and goes until noon. I've been to two or three and they are always packed. What is great fun is when there is a coffee break and we get to mingle and you get a chance to just talk casually to him: very accommodating and generous with his time. He just had one at the end of February on 'Heaven & Hell' and it was sold out. I'm sure he'll have another in the Fall. I don't know if you are part of his blog but he is definitely a nerd and has an amazing capacity for work and reading which he sometimes details. Amazing. Apologies for not getting back to you for this reply of yours to my question(s). I'm still figuring out how to navigate this site, and I've been bumped off a few times because I'm only allowed so many comments in a certain time period. It makes it hard to catch up or figure out what comments I've missed or have to catch up on. I'm thinking that this is great,... You've met Bart Ehrman I'm not part of his blog yet, but I've been thinking about it. My library consortium has his New Testament lecture series on audiobook. It's fantastic! I've listened to it like 7 or 10 times. One used to be able to get it free on YouTube, but they took it down for copywrite reasons. It's a shame. This series would be great information for so many people who would not be able to see or hear it otherwise. I'd love there to be a webpage or group that was called 'Christians for Bart Ehrman' or something like that. Did you get his autograph? or am I being too corny and shouldn't ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Elen1107 said: Did you get his autograph? or am I being too corny and shouldn't ask? I didn't as asking for autographs is too weird for me - I never think of it. But it's fine you asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 9, 2020 Author Share Posted March 9, 2020 7 hours ago, thormas said: Paul, you offered an opinion on 'what Christianity has done in teaching the prospect of hell ....caused much of the pain and heartache in the world." That is truly loaded and I can see why some, why Burl, might actually be offended. You, I assume out of you personal experience, blame Christianity with much of the world's pain. This is an opinion but the 'causing much pain' really must be established, outside of your personal experience, in order to support such a broad condemnation. You assume too much. I don't blame Christianity with much of the world's pain and in fact here I was only pointing out that the Christian teaching of an eternal Hell is a repugnant teaching. What you and maybe Burl read between the lines is out of my control. I expressed my opinion. I don't need to establish it outside of my personal experience in order to support it. Disagree by all means, have a mature and logical debate too I would encourage, but call somebody a bigot (as Burl did) because you don't agree with their opinion, is poor form. As one of the 8 points says: Know that the way we behave towards one another and Earth is the fullest expression of what we believe.... I made a statement about a Christian teaching which I, and you, find repugnant. I did not make it personal or call anybody names. I expressed an opinion about a belief that is taught today in many (i.e. a lot of ) christian churches. Quote As an aside and out of my personal experience, I was taught from a very early time about Hell, being born sinners and the need to go to weekly confession, etc. - except it was never that dark for us as I was part of the wider world and we knew we were good people, the world was pretty good, God and Jesus really loved us and actually you only go to Hell if you die in mortal sin and mortal sins are not typically committed by kids or teenagers or actually most people in the world. So we knew about Hell but the overriding image for us, for me, was the guy on the huge cross in the Church who 'died for me.' I was forgiven and saved - how cool was that. So there was not a great deal of pain and heartache in the world we knew and for the occasions when there were, we still knew we were loved, we were not mortal sinners and Heaven was out big H (not Hell). BTW, we were not psychologically abused. Lucky for you. Others have been psychologically affected. Maybe read the articles I quoted from the PC.org page or genuinely try and do your own research to see if people claim to suffer any trauma from the Christian teaching of an eternal place of torture for non-believers. Quote So whereas I just read what you wrote with a glance (and an interest also in Bart's new book), Burl's reacted a bit more personally. I simply thought you were wrong :+} There is no way to establish (prove) what you have said about Christianity. I disagree about not proving it. You may disagree, but I and others are living proof. Don't agree by all means, that is your entitlement. Quote However, if you see if from Burl's POV, you blame Christianity for a great deal of the world's pain and suffering (never giving the other side) and you take one of their beliefs, Hell and call it nonsense. I suspect there is more nuance to the Hell discussion than you seem to allow: the issue is an eternal hell of torment but is there something to the 'loss of God (i.e. hell) that is not eternal? You can't know for sure, what is true So it may be nonsense but it might not be. I'm not sure why you are speaking for Burl, but if he sees me blaming Christianity for a great deal of the world's pain and suffering, then I'd say you have both applied your own lenses. Yes, the issue was an eternal hell of torment. Yes, I do think it is nonsense and you think it is repugnant also. I wasn't talking about any other position on hell - imagined or otherwise. Quote While I agree there is no eternal Hell because I believe in universal salvation, I do allow for the reality of a temporary hell (again separation from God) so it might not be the 'untruth' you 'believe' it is. Different discussion. I wasn't talking about such an understanding of Hell. Hav eyou read the thread form the start and watched the video by Bart I posted? Did you read where I said "Yes, so Hell means something, but I think Bart will argue that it doesn't mean what the majority of Christians believe it does (eternal torture or suffering).". I wasn't talking about other versions of Hell. Quote As a side note when Burl or others speak out for Jesus, they are also speaking out for humankind. My comment was in regard to stating that Muslims who believe in slitting throats and crashing planes is wrong, bad, evil, something that I will not tolerate or accept in this world. To that Burl accused me of adding anti-muslim bigotry to what he considered my view on the Christian teaching of a Hell of eternal torture and suffering, as being bigoted. It was Muslims that I had in mind who were/are getting their throats cut by other fanatical Muslims. If Burl thinks speaking out for humankind means tolerating or accepting throat slitting, then I am at a loss for words. Of course I can't imagine that he actually does think that and suspect he just got caught up in his own 'offence' to what I was saying. Quote What exact belief expressions (not the extremes you have given but actual beliefs of members) have caused the 'community' harm? I actually can't think of a belief, religious or otherwise, that actually caused me harm in the past 3+ years on this site. There are some I disagreed with, some I really disagree with - but harm? How can I (or anyone) be harmed by an expression of belief by a person on a PC site - unless they are spewing hate which is not allowed. The most you can say is a belief caused you harm (and the onus is then on you to explain how you were harmed), you cannot speak for the community as a whole, not even this little site group. Why are you now restricting my points on this discussion to what the current crop of participants here do or don’t believe? Is it not clear to you that I am referring to a common teaching of Christianity other than necessarily restricted to here? I wasn't referring to the harm caused by a few words on a PC forum but rather the harm caused by the teachings that happen in real life to many who are raised and indoctrinated into these beliefs. There are many who a scarred by such teachings. I am/was but one. You can read about such accounts in lots of places if your care to look. Like I asked you previously - do you think a parent telling a child that they will suffer in an eternal hell if they don’t believe the same as their parents about Jesus, is not harmful? If you think it is harmful then you have answered your own question. If you think it is not harmful, then that saddens me. Quote I, for one, am not racing to defend Christianity nor do I need to. We're on a PC site, p as in progressive, and on the 3 such sites that I am on, the vast, vast majority does not accept older, conservative versions of Christianity or theistic three-tiered based explanations of Christian beliefs. They know their Christian history and condemn inquisitions, burnings, anti-semiticism, climate change denial, crusades, exploitation in the name of religion, and are aware of the insights of many biblical scholars and theologians. What is there to defend? There is no need to defend Christianity but there is a need and desire to explain a more progressive take on Christianity: thus the PC organization. The fact that you and Burl have turned this conversation into Christianity at all, rather than the single, narrow, harmful teaching that I was referring to evidences your defense of Christianity to me. It is out of proportion. I am and have been only talking about one particular harmful teaching of Christianity (not all Christians as I already said) that exists today in a big way. You even agree with me that it is repugnant - so let's call it out and tell others how repugnant and mistaken it is - it's not even based on scripture. Not make excuses for any version of Christianity that wants to reinforce and teach this nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 9, 2020 Author Share Posted March 9, 2020 4 hours ago, thormas said: I agree that eternal damnation of any is repugnant. However, Christianity is not based solely in their scriptures and not all teaching is found in scripture. Why has anybody changed this thread to an assessment of Christianity? I am and have been only talking about one, specific, harmful and repugnant teaching of Christianity, and have even been cautious to make clear that it is not adopted by all Christians! 4 hours ago, thormas said: Even when the eternal Hell is rejected, Christians and many people will wonder about after-death and will wonder about evil man when compared to the really good man or woman. Will they both 'go to heaven' and if they do, couldn't we all have just led evil or bad lives? And if they both go to heaven, why did Jesus bother to teach about living the 2 great commandments? And, it seems obvious that people need more than one lifetime to 'get it right.' Do they go straight to heaven, do they have other lives to work on it? For some, are there consequences given their earthly life if they never had God here, does that loss somehow continue, i.e. hell? There are many questions and scripture might provide some insight as do the writings of Christian thinkers, including those early Christians you mention above. Did you watch the video and read the thread from the start to see what I am referring to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 37 minutes ago, PaulS said: Why has anybody changed this thread to an assessment of Christianity? I am and have been only talking about one, specific, harmful and repugnant teaching of Christianity, and have even been cautious to make clear that it is not adopted by all Christians! You said something about racing to defend Christianity and I responded to it. 38 minutes ago, PaulS said: Did you watch the video and read the thread from the start to see what I am referring to? I did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 9, 2020 Author Share Posted March 9, 2020 3 hours ago, thormas said: You said something about racing to defend Christianity and I responded to it. The point was this thread has never been an attack on Christianity, so I don’t see why you need to start saying/questioning all these others things about Christianity. All I was only ever addressing was a single, repugnant teaching that Christianity is known for. If Burl believes in this take of Hell, then he may be offended that I think it is repugnant. But there is no need to become defensive and insulting - just discuss the issues at hand. You agree that the teaching of an eternal Hell of suffering and torment for non-believers is repugnant. Do you also believe that such teaching can be harmful to people? Do you think it can be harmful to children? Quote I did If you did then I don’t understand why you have broadened the discussion to other merits or otherwise of Christianity and it’s teachings or other understandings of Hell as some sort of justification. I never raised that stuff and wasn’t interested past this one, particular concept that I still see existing and promoted today by many (i.e. a lot of) Christian churches. It is that concept of Hell that you and I both see as repugnant and personally I would like to see much of Christianity stop teaching it, particularly as Christian scripture does not teach an eternal Hell of suffering and torment in any case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 9, 2020 Author Share Posted March 9, 2020 9 hours ago, romansh said: Thank you … a thoughtful reply. Thankyou for understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 12 hours ago, PaulS said: Paul, I had seen the video and to accommodate your request I did re-read the initial posts. However since you respond in chunks, the is the way I read them and your suggestion to re-read came last, so some of my comment came before I read it. However, you also made a lot of comments including the teaching of hell and harm, rushing to defend Christianity and others and, as you said, all are entitled to respond. And I did. If you want to move back or forward to Hell, do it and I and others will comment. You did blame Christianity with much of the world's pain and heartache in their teaching of an eternal Hell and I commented on that. When I said I suffered no pain, you simply responded that I was lucky, So it follows some were lucky and others unlucky so was it the teaching or the delivery system of certain churches and parents? If I was 'lucky' it was because the teaching about Hell was balanced by other Christian teachings which took precedent (I actually never remember being worried about going to Hell as a kid and when I taught Christian theology decades ago, such teachings were never uttered; the concentration was elsewhere). That the doctrine of Hell caused harm to others, I get and agree, that it caused much of the harm and heartache in the world is an amazing statement and questionable. That Christianity should listen to scholars like Ehrman, Hart, Hick, Ireneaus, Gregory of Nyssa and others and change their teaching would be wonderful - but I doubt it will happen. People who want it changed, who know or even suspect something is off about it, have already changed or are no longer Christian or they reside in the progressive or post-modern expressions of Christianity. p.s. I haven't turned it to Christianity in general, I've have been responding to your comments and mine have not been out of proportion. As a further aside, as I mentioned since it pertains to the teachings on Hell, even if the eternal torment of Hell is out, there is still the consideration of 'a Hell that is not eternal torment." Finally the Catholic failsafe was mortal sin: we knew it is extremely rare that the everyday person commits what is considered mortally sinful acts so Hell was never really a viable option for the vast majority of people we knew or most human beings. That's it, let's move on and have a discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 9, 2020 Author Share Posted March 9, 2020 18 minutes ago, thormas said: Paul, I had seen the video and to accommodate your request I did re-read the initial posts. You did blame Christianity with much of the world's pain and heartache in their teaching of an eternal Hell and I commented on that. When I said I suffered no pain, you simply responded that I was lucky, So it follows some were lucky and others unlucky so was it the teaching or the delivery system of certain churches and parents? If I was 'lucky' it was because the teaching about Hell was balanced by other Christian teachings which took precedent (I actually never remember being worried about going to Hell as a kid and when I taught Christian theology decades ago, such teachings were never uttered; the concentration was elsewhere).That the doctrine of Hell caused harm to others, I get and agree , that it caused much of the harm and heartache in the world is an amazing statement and questionable. That Christianity should listen to scholars like Ehrman, Hart, Hick, Ireneaus, Gregory of Nyssa and others and change their teaching would be wonderful - but I doubt it will happen. People who want it changed, who know or even suspect something is off about it, have already changed or are no longer Christian or they reside in the progressive or post-modern expressions of Christianity. p.s. I haven't turned it to Christianity in general, I've have been responding to your comments and mine have not been out of proportion. As a further aside, as I mentioned since it pertains to the teachings on Hell, even if the eternal torment of Hell is out, there is still the consideration of 'a Hell that is not eternal torment." Finally the Catholic failsafe was mortal sin: we knew it is extremely rare that the everyday person commits what is considered mortally sinful acts so Hell was never really a viable option for the vast majority of people we knew or most human beings. That's it, let's move on and have a discussion. If you have seen the video and re-read the posts in order, you will see I ONLY ever referred to the Christian teaching of an eternal, tortuous hell, and there is no denying that this has been a historical teaching of Christianity. But I was careful to point out that not all Christians taught or believed this. The video I introduced from Bart was referring to Jesus never teaching Hell as a place of eternal torment. Hell and eternal torment has undeniably been a Christian theme throughout history. Some Christians might not like to be lumped into the same religion as those that promote that message, I certainly don't, but nonetheless, it has been A Christian understanding that has been taught for hundreds and hundreds of years, and in many quarters is still taught today. A couple of posts later Burl said that he found the idea of an eternal fire in the bible but not eternal torment. He thought it was more like being thrown into an incinerator than living in one, and the idea of any eternal life beyond the grave is only for the saved. I agreed with Burl that that did seem to be Bart's understanding from what I have read of him and that I'd let Burl know more when I read Bart's book. I also later said that I liked the idea of taking the very same documents that have been used to paint a certain picture (i.e. eternal, tortuous hell - because that's the only hell I'd referred to up to that point) and shedding a bit more historical accuracy on them to demonstrate they don't actually mean what many have been told they do. I'm not shy about admitting that that is a message I'd like more Christians to understand - that Hell doesn't exist in the teachings of the bible as many of them have been told that it does. It is indisputable that this message has been and is, present in Christianity. We can argue all day about who's Christianity (not yours obviously) but it is a clear Christian message in many quarters. Unfortunately, all of Christianity gets caught under the label of Christianity - progressive and fundamental and all grades in between. Getting offended by me because of messages that other Christians preach misses my point entirely. Taking the time to discuss might help, but that wasn't the approach Burl or you chose to take before accusing me of various things such as bigotry, attacking Christianity or saying that I blame Christianity for all sorts of problems with the world (something that you have both interpreted - not something that I have said). You with me so far? I made a fairly rational and logical approach to a certain message about Hell that Christianity has taught. I embraced the better understanding of scripture that the likes of Bart can share with the world and perhaps with people who have been taught this foul message of eternal, tortuous hell. I expect you can see that as a good thing also (seeing as you are now acknowledging that the doctrine of Hell has caused harm to others as this conversation starts to come back to where it was in the first place, before Burl's 'offence' took us off on this useless tangent). So let's get to the post after which Burl accused me of being cynical and bigoted against Christianity and which he accused me of attacking other people’s faith beliefs (comments that you seem to support because "you can understand Burl's 'offence'"). This is what I said: From my point of view personally, I feel that what Christianity has done to so many in teaching the prospect of hell and telling people they are a product of their disconnection from God, that they are evil sinners, and that they need saving, has caused much pain and heartache in the world. And this goes on today, in a huge way! So whilst I agree with you that Hell is a nonsense concept, I know there are many people out there who are in pain, who wrestle with this concept and the impact it has on their lives. I think it is probably the worst evil Christianity can be known for. I would like to see that message done away because it simply isn't true, and in the last couple of hundred years scholars have been showing why even the early Christians didn't believe in it. So why does Christianity at large persist with this untruth and why any of us tolerate it? None of us would accept a child being sexually abused, but our 'Christian' society tolerates them being psychologically abused. So for me personally, when contemporary authorities such as Erhmann publish something that helps heal that wound, I like people to know. What is it that you disagree with in my post? Has Christianity NOT harmed many in teaching the prospect of hell and telling people they are a product of their disconnection from God, that they are evil sinners, and that they need saving, has caused much pain and heartache in the world? Does this still not occur to this day in many Christian churches? Are there not many people out there who are in pain, who wrestle with this concept and the impact it has on their lives? Do you not think it probably is the worst message and evil that Christianity has told to people? As wrong as it may be, Christianity has done that. Would you not like to see that message done away with? Do you not think it is a positive that somebody like Erhman can publish something that may help heal that wound for others? And for this I am accused of being a bigot and attacking Christianity? I'll admit it's denigrating people's faith - denigrating the faith of people who hold such a harmful and putrid subject aloft and teach it to their innocent children. I will stand up for those children. I can see clearly what you and Burl have mistaken - you think my criticism of a particular teaching of Christianity is a criticism of Christianity as a whole. Even though I NEVER made such a comment. That is what I was referring to in your, and Burl's, rush to defend Christianity. I think you have both imagined that my distaste for this particular Christian message about Hell means I am saying that Christianity as a whole only looks at Hell this way. Again, I never said any such thing. You said you could understand why Burl might be offended - because I had said "what Christianity has done in teaching the prospect of hell ....caused much of the pain and heartache in the world". Well what other religion do you think has taught that mankind is doomed for eternal torture in Hell unless they accept Jesus as their savour? That has been Christianity - not Buddhism or any other religion! My point here is that that has been A christian message - not all Christians as I had pointed out, but A Christian message nonetheless. One that I would like to see Christianity end. You both seem hung up on defending Christianity as though it never teaches this, and I acknowledged that your Church perhaps doesn't, but it is undeniable that many, many Christian churches do. That is the reality. So why do either of you take offence or feel that I am denigrating Christianity. I am denigrating a teaching that even you now agree is repugnant and harmful. God, I wish more Christians like you and Burl would denigrate this hellish approach to eternal torment that is still taught by Christianity today (just not the Christianity that you like to be referred to as - I get that) rather than feel obliged to fight for Christianity and explain how different Christians think differently. I know you don't think of Hell that way and because of Burl's comment about how he saw Hell in scripture I thought he better understood Hell too. Maybe not. I am simply not referring to those who don't see Hell as eternal torment - I am referring to the ones that do cause the harm, that continue to psychologically harm children by indoctrinating them with beliefs and scare tactics, all the while not even correctly aligning them with their own so called Holy Scriptures. They're the people you and Burl should be angry with for denigrating Christianity - not me! It's not a big ask for either of you to understand that much harm has been caused by such a message. You say 'much harm' is an amazing statement and questionable. Well with their being millions and millions of Christians of the fundamental variety in this world, who do teach their children this nonsense, I don't think it takes much imagination to work out there are many who suffer from this harmful doctrine. That you'd even bother questioning that seems to me to be your natural response to wanting to defend 'Christianity'. I don't think it needs you defending it - it needs Christians speaking loudly and clearly that eternal Hell and torture is the wrong message. There never was a discussion I wanted with you or Burl about what Hell could mean and be. This thread was started because I said Bart had a new book coming that would throw light on the horrendous message of eternal hell and torture. Of course there are other views and meanings about Hell that you, Burl, me and others have. That wasn't the point I was making. You both missed it. I think that was a shame. Peace and goodwill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, PaulS said: Paul, I'm not even reading your latest post. You seem to prefer confrontation over conversation, I don't. Even when I suggest we move on, you don't. Just let it go. Don't end with "peace and goodwill' begin with it and stop there. Edited March 9, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 9, 2020 Author Share Posted March 9, 2020 30 minutes ago, thormas said: Paul, I'm not even reading your latest post. You seem to prefer confrontation over conversation, I don't. Even when I suggest we move on, you don't. Just let it go. Don't end with "peace and goodwill' begin with it and stop there. That makes absolutely no sense - if you didn’t read my last post how would you even know whether it was conversation or confrontation? Of course, you did read it. And you see the convenience in moving on rather than addressing what I am pointing out. However, peace to you brother. I hold no grudge. It’s let gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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