PaulS Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share Posted April 18, 2020 3 hours ago, thormas said: Again with the lying. I did not say anything about you lying, nor do I think you are. I do think you 'play' the same game in countless posts where you ask for references (after some/many have already been presented) but when asked to do the same, you never provide them - and you continue to ask - as you have done here. I call that not being serious and instead 'playing games.' Your other old stand by is "I can say that about you " as in saying I never provided 'evidence.' Hardly the case here or with the famous reliability/verifiability discussion. In both cases, I'm still waiting. Is this what infinity or is it merely timelessness? I don't really care how you justify it to yourself Thormas and it doesn't really bother me what you think about me and my way of discussing things on here. I said I wasn't playing games, you continued to say I was, I can't do much more than that. About Spong you said "It is apparent that if he wanted to say it was our atoms or sharing in the cosmos (not God), he would have had no reservations and he would have stated that clearly." Using your logic, I have asked you to provide a single reference where Spong makes it clear that he expects the human person to live eternal, as some form of their self-consciousness. You can't provide any such reference. The best you can provide is a reference to our self-consciousness returning to the one consciousness. What that actually means for the individual ego Spong does not/can not elaborate on. This is why I say you are reading Spong through your own lens. 3 hours ago, thormas said: Not an interpretation, I actually provided references to show Spong's words. How about you? Not so much, right? You have provided Spong's words to argue for your interpretation of them. I could use the exact same words to argue my understanding. The reason I haven't provided any specific references is that I don't have access to my copy of 'Eternal Life' at present and I don't feel inspired enough to buy an electronic version just for this discussion with you. I recall the book and it's intent clearly (and consider it in context of all Spong's books which I have read, in conjunction with his regular subscriber emails until his death) and think you are mistaken in how you interpret Spong's vision of life after death. But no games being played, just a simply logistical problem of not having access to the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share Posted April 18, 2020 5 hours ago, JosephM said: In the book Spong jettisons the myth that God is other. Spong proposes a way, one that involves being “fully human.” We are not really separated from God, he asserts. Rather “we are part of what God is and we are at one with all that God is.” We are finite, but we share in infinity. We are mortal, but we share in immortality. Spong writes , “when I die I will rest my case in the ‘being’ of which I am a part . . . I step beyond words at this point into the wonder of a wordless reality.” To me, he rest his case in the being of God. All else was created is finite, is mortal and dies. If one lives afterlife it will be as a memory of God not the Joe, Paul, or Tom you know. That's exactly what I think Spong is saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 56 minutes ago, PaulS said: I don't really care how you justify it to yourself Thormas and it doesn't really bother me what you think about me and my way of discussing things on here. I have asked you to provide a single reference where Spong makes it clear that he expects the human person to live eternal, as some form of their self-consciousness. You can't provide any such reference. No justification necessary Paul and as I have said repeatedly you are entitled to your opinion and I both recognize and respect that. I have been having an academic discussion about the position you presented and then a further discussion of not only what Spong said but the different ways he speaks of man sharing in the infinity of God (after death). For even more references and Spong quotes (some also in my response to you) look at one of my last posts in response to Joseph. 39 minutes ago, PaulS said: I could use the exact same words (of Spong) to argue my understanding. The reason I haven't provided any specific references is that I don't have access to my copy of 'Eternal Life' ............ I recall the book and it's intent clearly (and consider it in context of all Spong's books which I have read, in conjunction with his regular subscriber emails until his death) Actually you couldn't use Spong to argue your understanding. And you could have volunteered earlier that you don't have the book. However, clearly you don't recall it completely or accurately. Spong died?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 3 hours ago, thormas said: No justification necessary Paul and as I have said repeatedly you are entitled to your opinion and I both recognize and respect that. I have been having an academic discussion about the position you presented and then a further discussion of not only what Spong said but the different ways he speaks of man sharing in the infinity of God (after death). Yet you are still justifying it. 3 hours ago, thormas said: For even more references and Spong quotes (some also in my response to you) look at one of my last posts in response to Joseph. In conclusion, I disagree with the way you interpret Spong and as such don't think the references support your argument. You have your lens, I have mine. 3 hours ago, thormas said: Actually you couldn't use Spong to argue your understanding. I disagree. 3 hours ago, thormas said: And you could have volunteered earlier that you don't have the book. I didn't think I needed to mention that my book was at home, but thanks for the tip. 3 hours ago, thormas said: However, clearly you don't recall it completely or accurately. I disagree. 3 hours ago, thormas said: Spong died?? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 27 minutes ago, PaulS said: Could send me the reference on Spong's death? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 19 minutes ago, thormas said: Could send me the reference on Spong's death? I was mistaken. Apologies to you and Bishop Spong. Perhaps I confused Borg's death with his - I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 54 minutes ago, PaulS said: I was mistaken. Apologies to you and Bishop Spong. Perhaps I confused Borg's death with his - I don't know. No problem, mistakes happen just glad he is still with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 Here is an adaptation from Spongs book on Eternal Life that may be of interest to those in this conversation here. http://spiritualpractice.ca/welcome/how-can-my-dying-become-a-spiritual-practice/contemporary-reflections-on-death/eternal-life-john-spong/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 23 hours ago, JosephM said: Here is an adaptation from Spongs book on Eternal Life that may be of interest to those in this conversation here. http://spiritualpractice.ca/welcome/how-can-my-dying-become-a-spiritual-practice/contemporary-reflections-on-death/eternal-life-john-spong/ Thanks Joseph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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