PaulS Posted April 13, 2020 Author Share Posted April 13, 2020 8 hours ago, thormas said: Again, your short existence, any existence, as understood in this position, has no meaning, no impact and matters not to the atoms you mentioned. To think otherwise, to assign your collection of atoms meaningfulness is the greatest illusion. To the contrary, I think that is just the only way you can understand it. I understand it otherwise. 8 hours ago, thormas said: I agree although I don't give such power to the cosmos but I take your meaning. If your stance is correct or the atheist stance is correct, then irrespective of whether or not we think our lives have meaning - they do not. It was all absurd from beginning to end and all one can do, all that the truly courageous man can do (if they somehow knew that for a fact) would be to defy life and fight against the absurdity, pushing the rock endlessly up the mountain. In the end, the rock will be were it started and all man's efforts for naught but at least man can spit in the face of absurdity (also an absurd action) and say 'it should have been otherwise, it should meant something.' But it didn't! I don't think the atheist, and I know I'm not, is saying that life is meaningless if there is no afterlife. You keep insisting that is the case if there is no afterlife. That is your view. 8 hours ago, thormas said: You are right, If i accepted you position, I would acknowledge the consequence of the position: life has no meaning. Happily, I have never accepted such a stance nor do I hold such a belief. However, if one gives intellectual assent to your position but also believes that their life is meaningful and acts to create that meaning - I suspect there is a divide between what they profess and what they live! Again, you misrepresent my position. My position is that life has meaning without the need for any afterlife. Like Joseph says - the meaning of life is life itself. You need an afterlife for your life to have meaning. So if you really did accept my position then you would NOT be saying life has no meaning. 8 hours ago, thormas said: What is ridiculous and wildly unreasonable is the position that your's or anyone's particular arrangement of atoms (who you were or what you did, felt or thought) has any meaning in, any impact on, the vastness of cosmic space and time; the atoms continue irregardless of all your thoughts, loves, efforts, etc. That such a life has meaning is fantasy. When all are dead or simply when all that knew you are dead and no one has you in their memory or knew you ever existed - to whom do the things you did have meaning? What is their meaning in the vastness of endless time of the atoms? How much time has man been present in the vastness of cosmic 'time' and how long will he remain? What meaningfulness does a life of 30, 50, 70, 80 years have on the vastness of time (or eternity) that the 'atoms' have? What meaning does man have in the endless cycle of the atoms? What does it matter that he was? It doesn't - the atoms continue whether or not man was. At best, in such a position, meaning is relative and minuscule - but even that meaning is meaningless to the cosmos and to the ceaseless march of the atoms. To think there is any meaning is.......absurd. Again, I don't think my view is either ridiculous or absurd. You may find it so perhaps because of a limited capability to understand my view, but that doesn't make it ridiculous. Ridiculous is just your opinion. Again, life is it's own meaning and I simply don't worry that if it shall be as though I never existed then my life is meaningless. I don't know how I can make it any clearer for you that I think my life has meaning, even in the face that one day it will no longer be. I simply don't see it that way. Apparently you can't see it any other way, which is fine of course, that is what you believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted April 13, 2020 Author Share Posted April 13, 2020 39 minutes ago, thormas said: I don't know enough about others human like creatures to know whether or not they are closer to animals of homo sapiens. Nor do I/we know when they might have started thinking and especially what they thought. Certainly it seems that at some point they came to believe is gods (everywhere) and some also seem to have elaborate burial rituals. Again not sure of when or who began such rituals and how they would be classified. Conversely, one wonders if the words meaningfulness or absurdity (or their language equivalents) ever entered their minds. No denying our thought developed but as to whether it is only man-made or part of the make up (of the transcendent being) is a question. Well, we know that when we were monkeys in the tree that we weren't holding elaborate burial rituals. Conveniently for this argument of an afterlife, concern about afterlife only seemed to appear as man evolved into a more familiar species to today's homo sapiens. I think we can all agree that animals don't seem at all concerned about their life having meaning only if there is an afterlife. That many (not all) humans came to start believing in Gods and the supernatural, and all sorts of different strains of the spiritual in between such as animism, polytheism, paganism and monotheism to name just a few, seems a completely human condition and I can't help by suspect it is a product of our evolved intelligence rather than a revelation of something that has always existed but was waiting for human consciousness to develop to understand it. The sealer for me is the human attributes many apply to God or the Gods. It seems too convenient for me that we suddenly start understanding God a certain way along our path of evolution and that that way looks remarkably like us at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 37 minutes ago, JosephM said: As Paul said we evolved and "our brains became a different species over hundreds of thousands of years" The mind that was to be used as a tool came with a fundamental flaw or some might call dysfunction. A kind of form of collective mental illness. Hindu sages call it maya or the veil of delusion. Buddhism says the mind in its normal state generates dukkha. (suffering) Christianity calls it "original sin" but sin has been misunderstood and misinterpreted by many fundamental teachings. Paul in the NT says "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Hinduism and Buddhism's answer is to be enlightened. Christianity's answer is to have the 'mind of Christ with Christ representing being meshed together with God as One. Even Jesus said he spoke not his own words or did his own work but rather the words and work of the Father who sent him. The problem is as man started naming things and creating dichonomies such as 'good and evil' (eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil) etc etc.. The thinking mind gradually took on an identity of its own (an ego) and now sits in the temple of God (the/your body) as if it is separate and is god. The body is created and evolving and flowering and eventually there will be a radical transformation of human consciousness and all will evolve past this dysfunction but each human in their own order and time. Most all major religions use different words but the story is the same. Thomas, you ask "Even the meaning 'in Life itself' begs the question: what is that meaning." It doesn't beg it in me. It's the dysfunction of the mind that begs the question. Life is its own meaning. Find the One who animates and the question will disappear. How can the human creature itself understand the meaning of Life without knowing first "who am I"? If we are awareness in the form of person, it would seem that that awareness wants to and does transcend the form - so person or awareness as person (and beyond?) is self-transcend - seeking that which is not illusory and not mere form. How can awareness (from God) in the form of person become flawed? Why would the Christ who is God allow this development? If there is from and then there develops a fundamental flaw that must be overcome, it seems that this speak to a 'journey' and does the journey end at 3 or 55 or 80 years or does it, must it continue until awareness once again rest in or lives in the Christ? Was man's naming things a problem or a necessary or unavoidable part of the journey? Do we need to take on that identity of our own (the ego) to know the world and is it necessary in order for the journey to be ours and the decision, the quest, to overcome illusion and become or approach enlightenment ours? Perhaps it is necessary as we will never know world that wasn't touched by 'original sin.' A radical transformation of human consciousness, I agree - but it does seem that the journey and the transformation of the human is not limited to a mere 3 or 50 or 80 years and might even demand multiple 'lives' to be transformed. The dysfunction of the mind is part of our world, part of us and thus the question and I suggest a question for all, What is life, what are we to do, Who is the Enlightened One and how do we attain enlightenment? You might be there but unless you, like Mary, were born without 'original sin' then you too searched for, realized and attained some level of enlightenment. Life or God does have its own meaning but if man is born to illusion, then it is man who seeks that meaning and in finding it, in being it, is transformed. The Christian (and others) believe they have found the One who is God who is Love and then the journey becomes the continual effort to reside in Love and not in self. Thus the journey continues; the transformation is not a once for all but one moment built upon another until one is Love. Again, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 15 minutes ago, PaulS said: To the contrary, I think that is just the only way you can understand it. I understand it otherwise. Actually I suspect it is the only way (and not because it is mine since it pre-dates me) to fully understand the ramifications of this position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted April 13, 2020 Author Share Posted April 13, 2020 3 hours ago, thormas said: Actually I suspect it is the only way (and not because it is mine since it pre-dates me) to fully understand the ramifications of this position. Many suspicions that predate me have died and faded away. Perhaps this suspicion (believing that only the existence of life after death can give this life meaning) will too in time as we continue to develop and evolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 32 minutes ago, thormas said: Interesting but are we pure awareness if our awareness is so different one to another and even in the individual self? And disguised - why disguised, what would be the need for or the purpose of a disguise? Perhaps there is another way to approach this but this doesn't resonate, seems to speak of a mind/body conflict and also seems a throwback to older philosophies and even gnosticism. I get that Thormas dies but if awareness continues is it still becoming aware or is it a one time limited thing (say 3 years for some and 85 years for others)? And why hide in Christ, what do you mean here: hid from what? If person lives, dies and evolves - evolves to what and is this evolution at all the responsibility or work of the person (and again is it a limited 89 year deal or does it continue)? What is awareness after death when it hides in Christ? Is it person or form of another kind? Thanks. Awareness is awareness. There is only one God and one awareness. Awareness is no different in the person i call me or the person i call Thomas. It is your thinking mind and ego (which is a product of your myriad of conditioning from life here including genetics that makes us appear as what you refer to as different awareness. It is your thoughts whether you are conscious of them or not that cause such a belief. In summary ... You are Awareness disguised as a person. No purpose or need for the disguise .... it is just a point in the evolution of human consciousness. Awareness was always awareness. It is not becoming aware. Since you are awareness there is no need to attain or cultivate it. All that you have to do is to give up being aware of other things, that is of the not-self. If one gives up being aware of them then pure awareness alone remains, and that is the Self. You could equate that with God if you realize Self. Now Self from a Christian perspective and words ..... Col 3:3 "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (He is talking to the living not physically dead.) But of course not everyone has yet realized this. Now here is the mystery revealed for all Christians . Same mystery found hidden throughout the Bible. Eph 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted April 13, 2020 Author Share Posted April 13, 2020 5 hours ago, JosephM said: Awareness is awareness. There is only one God and one awareness. Awareness is no different in the person i call me or the person i call Thomas. It is your thinking mind and ego (which is a product of your myriad of conditioning from life here including genetics that makes us appear as what you refer to as different awareness. It is your thoughts whether you are conscious of them or not that cause such a belief. In summary ... You are Awareness disguised as a person. No purpose or need for the disguise .... it is just a point in the evolution of human consciousness. I've mentioned before in another thread that a God that I could make sense of would be a God of which we are in, are of and are ourselves. Maybe such a God could be what you call Awareness? To me, such a God is in and of everything and is experiencing everything. That's why I don't think there would be a good and evil per se, but rather, as everything is being experienced by God (the doing and the being done to), it just is. We are God experiencing what it's like to be human, plants and rocks and chemicals are giving God other experiences, and pre-human species provided God with different experiences. Total oneness and total awareness. When what seems to be our 'life' passes, consciousness means nothing as it is awareness (God) that continues. Maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 11 hours ago, JosephM said: Awareness is awareness. There is only one God and one awareness. Awareness is no different in the person i call me or the person i call Thomas. It is your thinking mind and ego (which is a product of your myriad of conditioning from life here including genetics that makes us appear as what you refer to as different awareness. It is your thoughts whether you are conscious of them or not that cause such a belief. In summary ... You are Awareness disguised as a person. No purpose or need for the disguise .... it is just a point in the evolution of human consciousness. Awareness was always awareness. It is not becoming aware. Since you are awareness there is no need to attain or cultivate it. All that you have to do is to give up being aware of other things, that is of the not-self. If one gives up being aware of them then pure awareness alone remains, and that is the Self. You could equate that with God if you realize Self. Now Self from a Christian perspective and words ..... Col 3:3 "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (He is talking to the living not physically dead.) But of course not everyone has yet realized this. Now here is the mystery revealed for all Christians . Same mystery found hidden throughout the Bible. Eph 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Yet it is obvious in experience that there are different 'levels or degrees' of awareness, that awareness (ultimately enlightenment) is something we strive for and it is apparent we are born to a world with that conditioning (different in part for many) and genetics are included. It is this that the human person is born 'into' and to discount it seems a bit like those ancients who devalued the body as the prison of the soul. Again - the disguise, why? Why is it a point in evolution? That at least though seems like a partial answer for the disguise And it must be that Awareness if also disguised as all that is part of the created order, all in the cosmos and the cosmos itself. But if all Awareness is God, why does God disguised as person or creation need to evolve in consciousness? If there is evolution, as you have said, that speaks to a becoming - becoming enlightened (becoming aware). There does seem to be a need to attain or cultivate awareness: evolution of human consciousness. I wonder if man, in this form and in this world (so to speak) can truly and fully give up awareness of other things - at the very least one could then trip over one of those things, the ottoman when they get up for yet another thing that was supporting them, the couch? Humorous but also a serious question. It seems much is hidden, why and why does the Self hid wisdom in holy books for itSelf - if it is all awareness? Joseph, I am not busting your chops, rather I am asking serious questions. I allow you are onto something but there are gaps and questions abound. I see that you can relate this to Christ but Christianity does not hold that man is the Self or God - rather man is the child of Self born to share the Life of Self - begun here (or perhaps even in a prior existence) but once given, received and lived - it is never lost (eternal). Even "gather together in one all things in Christ" speaks of the many created for abundance in/with the One Self/God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 12 hours ago, PaulS said: Many suspicions that predate me have died and faded away. Perhaps this suspicion (believing that only the existence of life after death can give this life meaning) will too in time as we continue to develop and evolve. I was simply stating the analysis of the position you presented was not just my opinion. One doesn't need to compare or contrast it with another view (for example, life after death models) to recognize the flaw: that there is no meaning in human actions, thoughts or feelings - given the belief that man dies and ceases and the atoms continue on in the endlessness of the cosmos: a particular man, all men do not even register. That man existed or didn't exist or for how long, makes no difference - given this belief. As an aside: it is not a belief in life after death that gives this life meaning in Christianity. Rather, what gives 'this life' meaning is the belief that life (this present life) is meaningful in itself because it is a gift from God and once given, received and lived (by loving) it is sharing the Life that is God. This belief in and about God and life leads to a further belief: that not even death can overcome, diminish or remove the Life which is God and of which man already partakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 hour ago, thormas said: Again - the disguise, why? Why is it a point in evolution? That at least though seems like a partial answer for the disguise And it must be that Awareness if also disguised as all that is part of the created order, all in the cosmos and the cosmos itself. But if all Awareness is God, why does God disguised as person or creation need to evolve in consciousness? If there is evolution, as you have said, that speaks to a becoming - becoming enlightened (becoming aware). There does seem to be a need to attain or cultivate awareness: evolution of human consciousness. Find the Self and your why question will disappear. You are already enlightened, the creature that identifies as Thomas just hasn't realized it yet. Thomas is lost in the world but not really since Thomas is illusory like a character in a movie.. 1 hour ago, thormas said: I wonder if man, in this form and in this world (so to speak) can truly and fully give up awareness of other things - at the very least one could then trip over one of those things, the ottoman when they get up for yet another thing that was supporting them, the couch? Humorous but also a serious question. It seems much is hidden, why and why does the Self hid wisdom in holy books for itSelf - if it is all awareness? Man in general in time is lost in the world. "You are in the world but you are not of the world" (Jesus) Each night in deep sleep, the world disappears and pure awareness remains. That is closer to your true nature than either your dream or awake state. Enlightened, you realize you the creature are in the world doing that which is your purpose but your awareness is not 'lost' in the world. (never really lost since it is always present, just the creature hasn't realized its presence all the time) 1 hour ago, thormas said: Joseph, I am not busting your chops, rather I am asking serious questions. I allow you are onto something but there are gaps and questions abound. I see that you can relate this to Christ but Christianity does not hold that man is the Self or God - rather man is the child of Self born to share the Life of Self - begun here (or perhaps even in a prior existence) but once given, received and lived - it is never lost (eternal). Even "gather together in one all things in Christ" speaks of the many created for abundance in/with the One Self/God. The more you seek answers, the more questions that will arise. It seems to me it is better to reside in Pure Awareness. Be present and discover Self. In Christianity Jesus related to being one with God . Self. He did say "I and my Father are one" John 10:30 ... and Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us John 17:20-21 The NT does equate Jesus with God through out the gospel of John. Re-read the first chapter of John and tell me if it disagrees. Christ is the true light. The creature dies but Christ, the light remains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 41 minutes ago, JosephM said: Find the Self and your why question will disappear. You are already enlightened, the creature that identifies as Thomas just hasn't realized it yet. Thomas is lost in the world but not really since Thomas is illusory like a character in a movie.. Well have any who have found the Self and are interested in others reported back about the disguise? It seems that Jesus found the Self but there is no report or hint that he believed it was disguised as men and women?? 45 minutes ago, JosephM said: Man in general in time is lost in the world. "You are in the world but you are not of the world" (Jesus) Each night in deep sleep, the world disappears and pure awareness remains. That is closer to your true nature than either your dream or awake state. Enlightened, you realize you the creature are in the world doing that which is your purpose but your awareness is not 'lost' in the world. (never really lost since it is always present, just the creature hasn't realized its presence all the time) Yet this is the world that we have been born into and that predates us by eons and any 'original sin' seems to have been inevitable given that early man had to either be primarily concerned with survival (instinct as Spong says) or even earlier 'man like creatures' did not have the consciousness. 57 minutes ago, JosephM said: The more you seek answers, the more questions that will arise. It seems to me it is better to reside in Pure Awareness. Be present and discover Self. In Christianity Jesus related to being one with God . Self. He did say "I and my Father are one" John 10:30 ... and Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us John 17:20-21 The NT does equate Jesus with God through out the gospel of John. Re-read the first chapter of John and tell me if it disagrees. Christ is the true light. The creature dies but Christ, the light remains. Is it seeking answers or is it seeking enlightenment? Again, there was no discussion of disguise with Jesus and, as you know, the 'I am' statements are the creation of John and doubtful that they were on the lips of Jesus. Even the Father in me and I in the Father does not of necessity mean I am the Father in disguise or that I am literally the Father. Joseph, if one knows why the disguise then it seems they would or could take pains to explain the why. If they won't that is one issue, if they can't that is another issue. Again, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, thormas said: Well have any who have found the Self and are interested in others reported back about the disguise? It seems that Jesus found the Self but there is no report or hint that he believed it was disguised as men and women?? And yes some have found Self and reported back. Hindu sages like Ramana Marharshi, Enlightened Buddhists, Jesus and many others. Some use different words but the story is the same. Disguised is my word to you. Jesus said " Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" He was speaking to the living not the physically dead. And Paul in Col 3 said "Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." Can't you see that as long as your mind is set on the things in the earth you will not realize who you are at a deeper level? At that point it is realized that your life is hidden in Christ even though your life is still disguised to others as living as the person/creature Thomas. Is that enough of a hint to you? Yes, It was inevitable. It was predestined. Enjoy the movie. Quote Is it seeking answers or is it seeking enlightenment? Again, there was no discussion of disguise with Jesus and, as you know, the 'I am' statements are the creation of John and doubtful that they were on the lips of Jesus. Even the Father in me and I in the Father does not of necessity mean I am the Father in disguise or that I am literally the Father. Joseph, if one knows why the disguise then it seems they would or could take pains to explain the why. If they won't that is one issue, if they can't that is another issue. Again, thanks. Enlightenment is not something to seek. It is present in all and not lost to find. It is realized by the creature. The Self already knows these things. Find the Self and you will know. Well i have provided some writings above and i don't expect your blind acceptance of my use of the word disguise. But perhaps you can get the gist of it from what i have said. Why the disguise? Because you are the created creature of God. You will physically die as does all creation and the real you is not the creature. Self/God eternal is disguised as a creature/person whether Jesus , Thomas or Joseph until realized. God doesn't require a disguise. Regardless of what a book says , it is verifiable by self inquiry and watching the mind until , like the sages before us, you are able to see the illusion through the veil . Best Wishes, Joseph Edited April 13, 2020 by JosephM restructured sentences Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 2 hours ago, JosephM said: And yes some have found Self and reported back. Hindu sages like Ramana Marharshi, Enlightened Buddhists, Jesus and many others. Some use different words but the story is the same. Disguised is my word to you. Jesus said " Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" He was speaking to the living not the physically dead. And Paul in Col 3 said "Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." Can't you see that as long as your mind is set on the things in the earth you will not realize who you are at a deeper level? At that point it is realized that your life is hidden in Christ even though your life is still disguised to others as living as the person/creature Thomas. Is that enough of a hint to you? Joseph, I just don't see Jesus talking about anything like a disguise. Do you have another word that might work? Nor do I see Jesus claiming 'Godhood' or identifying himself with 'Self' or speaking of an 'enlightenment' that reveals him as the Self in disguise - except the identification in John which is a much later development. Jesus is always 'in God' and while we can speak of a him 'being God/Self' - Jesus always saw God as Thou, as Father. As for Paul, it still does not seem as if the 'who you are' is the Self - rather it is is with the Christ, the one who is fully Human (so to speak) and 'in' God. I do see the difference between a mind set on things and self (as in selfishness) as opposed to taking on the mind of Christ but still, in Christianity, this is not identification or equality with Self. We can speak of this as an 'identification' or a 'sameness' but, in Christianity, the human is the child of the Father not the Father, not the Self in itSelf. I do get the idea of one's true life 'hidden' (although the use of that word can be misleading) in Christ and revealed (and found) in Christ but I don't see Jesus speaking of that hidden life as disguise for the Self. I do get the idea of others, including one's self not seeing the true you (Who do you say the I am or Who do you see?) until one incarnates the Christ and thus is in God - however, I don't see that the person/creature is Self disguised. Predestined is another loaded word; if it speaks of no choice on the part of man, I disagree. However, if it speaks of the our end in our beginning then I agree that we are destined for God form the first moment of creation. 2 hours ago, JosephM said: Enlightenment is not something to seek. It is present in all and not lost to find. It is realized by the creature. The Self already knows these things. Find the Self and you will know. Well i have provided some writings above and i don't expect your blind acceptance of my use of the word disguise. But perhaps you can get the gist of it from what i have said. Why the disguise? Because you are the created creature of God. You will physically die as does all creation and the real you is not the creature. Self/God eternal is disguised as a creature/person whether Jesus , Thomas or Joseph until realized. God doesn't require a disguise. Regardless of what a book says , it is verifiable by self inquiry and watching the mind until , like the sages before us, you are able to see the illusion through the veil . Whether or not enlightenment is work or not is up for grabs. It certainly seems that Jesus' journey was to bring or reveal enlightenment and it was, at times, work for him and it was also work for others who had to do the hard work of hearing, seeing, trying, failing, praying and turning the other cheek. Even the son in the story of the Prodigal lost it and had to then begin his return and he both found it and his Father 'found' him. Some of those who found Jesus, still failed; some like the rich man were unwilling to do the work. I know this stuff can be a bit exhausting and, again, I thank you. I do get (I believe) a good deal of the gist - however not sure I agree with the entire explanation or the interpretation of some of the holy books and holy men (although I will refer to your references). The disguise: we are the creation of God - I would add, not the equivalent of the Self and I would further add, not the Self in disguise - we are the creation. I agree that we all die and but I would say the created creature is the not yet (for most) the real 'me' because it is being transformed in Christ and thereby becoming the real or fully real-ized me (how many lives does this take, who knows). However, where I differ is although I agree that God is in his creatures and he is hidden (at an epistemological distance so they might freely chose him) - he is not disguised as them. I and Christianity see God as more generous (for lack of a better word): God 'let's be' and his letting be is that creation might have life, abundant life in/with God. God does not require a disguise and does not disguise himself as his created creatures. However (and this remains unclear), if you mean that God as Life, Love, Way, is in man until man realizes that Presence and chooses it, I can agree but I have been taking your words to mean that God is disguised as men, women and all creation. I believe that self inquiry can many times be blind and I think a reliance, a sharing with others (be it in person or in a book by a long dead author or sage) is essential to understanding and growth. Some of the sages , if I remember correctly, were/are very learned men and women and many wrote so that others could learn and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted April 13, 2020 Author Share Posted April 13, 2020 9 hours ago, thormas said: I was simply stating the analysis of the position you presented was not just my opinion. One doesn't need to compare or contrast it with another view (for example, life after death models) to recognize the flaw: that there is no meaning in human actions, thoughts or feelings - given the belief that man dies and ceases and the atoms continue on in the endlessness of the cosmos: a particular man, all men do not even register. That man existed or didn't exist or for how long, makes no difference - given this belief. Whether it is a flaw or not is subject to opinion. You see flaws, I don't. Quote As an aside: it is not a belief in life after death that gives this life meaning in Christianity. Rather, what gives 'this life' meaning is the belief that life (this present life) is meaningful in itself because it is a gift from God and once given, received and lived (by loving) it is sharing the Life that is God. Well, there's your meaning then - you don't need eternal life to have meaning in life. I know I give people gifts all the time knowing that the gift is not eternal. Quote This belief in and about God and life leads to a further belief: that not even death can overcome, diminish or remove the Life which is God and of which man already partakes. This further belief that death needs to be overcome still smacks of (to me) human emotion (ego) and not wanting to cease to exist. For me, the logic doesn't lead from believing this gift of life from God needs to be endless. Maybe God gave you life with an end in mind. Perhaps as Joseph speaks to, if we are simply awareness, then the self (consciousness) dying is of no consequence. It does seem to me to be a very human (ego) fear that we cease to exist upon death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 58 minutes ago, PaulS said: Whether it is a flaw or not is subject to opinion. You see flaws, I don't. More than opinion if one critically considers and analyzes the implications of the position put forward. 6 minutes ago, PaulS said: Well, there's your meaning then - you don't need eternal life to have meaning in life. More nuanced: belief in life after death is not what gives this life meaning, rather it is what is believed about God - including that the Life of God that men are born to is, like God, eternal. 56 minutes ago, PaulS said: This further belief that death needs to be overcome still smacks of (to me) human emotion (ego) and not wanting to cease to exist. For me, the logic doesn't lead from believing this gift of life from God needs to be endless. Maybe God gave you life with an end in mind. Perhaps as Joseph speaks to, if we are simply awareness, then the self (consciousness) dying is of no consequence. It does seem to me to be a very human (ego) fear that we cease to exist upon death. A bit more nuanced: not that death 'needs' to be overcome so we will continue, but the recognition that God, who is Life, is so powerful that nothing (not even death) stands in Life's way. What truly smacks of ego is that man demands his life is meaningful when it is less than a flicker of a flicker in the timelessness of the cosmos. As you said, it is about the atoms: while we live for a mere 3 years, 25 years, 50, 90 - atoms (like roses?) are forever (eternal). It is all about the atoms in this position, not man. So is it atoms or have we now switched the position to awareness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted April 14, 2020 Author Share Posted April 14, 2020 7 hours ago, thormas said: More than opinion if one critically considers and analyzes the implications of the position put forward. No, it just opinion. Yours aligns with some others that have come before you, as do mine. Still, it is all just opinion. Stating that your opinion more critically considers analyzing the implications is again, just an opinion. You are of course entitled to it. As our fellow member Rom might say, you couldn't think any other way at this point of time anyway, as for me. Quote More nuanced: belief in life after death is not what gives this life meaning, rather it is what is believed about God - including that the Life of God that men are born to is, like God, eternal. A bit more nuanced: not that death 'needs' to be overcome so we will continue, but the recognition that God, who is Life, is so powerful that nothing (not even death) stands in Life's way. If one can believe that life has meaning because it is a gift from God, then in my opinion it doesn't have to be more nuanced than that unless one creates that nuance. Again, it seems to come from a place of ego not wanting to cease to exist, in my opinion. That is to say, that is how I see it, at this point in time. I like some of Spong's words on the matter - "True religion is, at its core, nothing more or less than a call to live fully, to love wastefully and to be all that we can be. That is finally where life’s meaning is found. All else is background music.". To me, Spong also seems to think his life has meaning & purpose irrespective of whether there is an afterlife or not. Of course, that is just his opinion too. But I'm happy with that, whereas others may not be for whatever reasons. Each to their own. For me personally, I don't believe in an afterlife but still believe and feel that my life has meaning. I'm content with that. You can keep insisting that my life has no meaning because I don't believe in an afterlife, but my experience tells me different. Quote What truly smacks of ego is that man demands his life is meaningful when it is less than a flicker of a flicker in the timelessness of the cosmos. As you said, it is about the atoms: while we live for a mere 3 years, 25 years, 50, 90 - atoms (like roses?) are forever (eternal). It is all about the atoms in this position, not man. I'm not sure who you think is 'demanding' that life is meaningful - my experience simply is that it is, without the promise of an afterlife. You state that life is meaningless unless there is an afterlife - indeed your logic takes you to that position apparently. I just don't see it that way at all. Each to their own. Personally, I'm leaning toward not getting hung up on this concept of 'man' needing to continue after death. One thing we DO know, is that after death the atoms DO continue. Even the bible says man was made from dust - so perhaps it was recognizing that our atoms come from other and later return to other (I doubt that actually understood atoms at that pint, but maybe recognized the futility of thinking man was something other than a product of the universal elements. Man is created and man dissolves, but the atoms remain. Perhaps that is possibly where the 'awareness' lays - within the atoms of the universe which make up every single part of it. Who really knows. Quote So is it atoms or have we now switched the position to awareness? When I say 'perhaps' at the beginning of that sentence, it means I am questioning or postulating what could be. So no, no switch. I am open to thinking about it though. Maybe awareness brings the atoms together? Who can possibly know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 5 hours ago, thormas said: Joseph, I just don't see Jesus talking about anything like a disguise. Do you have another word that might work? Nor do I see Jesus claiming 'Godhood' or identifying himself with 'Self' or speaking of an 'enlightenment' that reveals him as the Self in disguise - except the identification in John which is a much later development. Jesus is always 'in God' and while we can speak of a him 'being God/Self' - Jesus always saw God but when Peter said as Thou, as Father. Use the word hidden if you like it better and re-read all the posts and you might get the gist. However this is my last attempt ....Jesus was indeed not God/Self because as a man he was a creature we refer to as a human/person. However, he Jesus the person realized that the flesh profited nothing and willingly sacrificed it because he understood that " in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;" The /Self/God was in and through him and he knew it and if one doesn't believe the writings they can better yet experience it for themself. He also is recorded saying if you have seen me you have seen the Father. The Father was present in him and manifested but to many they could not see through the disguise of the person Jesus. In reality God/Self/Pure Awareness/The One etc was present as he is in you but to the eyes of most others Jesus was just a person. Hence I say when a person comes to the full realization of who they are at the deepest level, the Self appears and one knows that the person is just a disguise because in absolute reality there is only God. The rest is not what it seems. Therefor in the beginning i said to you in my first post on page 6 ... "You are Awareness disguised as a person." Quote As for Paul, it still does not seem as if the 'who you are' is the Self - rather it is is with the Christ, the one who is fully Human (so to speak) and 'in' God. I do see the difference between a mind set on things and self (as in selfishness) as opposed to taking on the mind of Christ but still, in Christianity, this is not identification or equality with Self. We can speak of this as an 'identification' or a 'sameness' but, in Christianity, the human is the child of the Father not the Father, not the Self in itSelf. Christ is the Self. Christ is not a name, its a title like Buddha. In the Greek language the root word Christ (Christos) means anointed one and if you look at the root words it is as in a smearing together of you the creature and God. You are already together but until you realize it or 'are caught up together' you think you are separate and that the person with the name and form you have is real . I think in my experience, Buddhism says it best but it is cold and hard to swallow ..... "absolute changeless permanent reality, the unconditioned, itself alone is, all else has always been, is, and always will be just a state of make-believe fiction, a state of delusion worn like a costume with multiple fabricated viewpoints, with each self-sustaining itself in a self-perpetuated state of self-ignorance, until each decides to come to closure through self-enlightenment and self-awakening". Quote I do get the idea of one's true life 'hidden' (although the use of that word can be misleading) in Christ and revealed (and found) in Christ but I don't see Jesus speaking of that hidden life as disguise for the Self. I do get the idea of others, including one's self not seeing the true you (Who do you say the I am or Who do you see?) until one incarnates the Christ and thus is in God - however, I don't see that the person/creature is Self disguised. So lose the word if you don't like it. Try not to get hung up on one word. If you are dead (not physically) and your life is hid in Christ, it is hid in God. If Jesus were raised as a Buddhist or Hindu, he might use the word Self instead of Father or something else. 🙂 Quote I know this stuff can be a bit exhausting and, again, I thank you. I do get (I believe) a good deal of the gist - however not sure I agree with the entire explanation or the interpretation of some of the holy books and holy men (although I will refer to your references). Agreement is not important. Everything is as it is. Quote The disguise: we are the creation of God - I would add, not the equivalent of the Self and I would further add, not the Self in disguise - we are the creation. If you were the creation, then you are surely dead for nothing that is created in this world is permanent and survives and leaves this world. Only that which creates survives. Til you know who you are, "Who am I" the delusion continues and the fairy tale lives. Quote I agree that we all die and but I would say the created creature is the not yet (for most) the real 'me' because it is being transformed in Christ and thereby becoming the real or fully real-ized me (how many lives does this take, who knows). However, where I differ is although I agree that God is in his creatures and he is hidden (at an epistemological distance so they might freely chose him) - he is not disguised as them. I and Christianity see God as more generous (for lack of a better word): God 'let's be' and his letting be is that creation might have life, abundant life in/with God. God does not require a disguise and does not disguise himself as his created creatures. However (and this remains unclear), if you mean that God as Life, Love, Way, is in man until man realizes that Presence and chooses it, I can agree but I have been taking your words to mean that God is disguised as men, women and all creation. I believe that self inquiry can many times be blind and I think a reliance, a sharing with others (be it in person or in a book by a long dead author or sage) is essential to understanding and growth. Some of the sages , if I remember correctly, were/are very learned men and women and many wrote so that others could learn and see. That sounds pretty good to me except the part of free choice and that God is not disguised as them. It seems to me, If God wasn't disguised in people then everyone could plainly see God in all creation and there would be no one asking for proof of God. Yes? On sages, it seems to me, most don't bother writing . It is usually their followers that later do the writing. I think there is good reason for that. The sage job is not to explain away your questions but rather to assist you in finding Self/ Christ wherein is hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 PS. A study of Hebrew and the word translated in the KJV of the Bible in Genesis reveals man is a shadow of God. A shadow is not the real thing. It is an illusion or phantom. Who's phantom is it? God of course. It is God disguised as a person as all things are disguised that are created in this world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה אָדָ֛ם בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ כִּדְמוּתֵ֑נוּ וְיִרְדּוּ֩ בִדְגַ֨ת הַיָּ֜ם וּבְע֣וֹף הַשָּׁמַ֗יִם וּבַבְּהֵמָה֙ וּבְכָל־הָאָ֔רֶץ וּבְכָל־הָרֶ֖מֶשׂ הָֽרֹמֵ֥שׂ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃ And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. They shall rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the cattle, the whole earth, and all the creeping things that creep on earth.” Image (Strong's #6754) The word צלם (tselem) is literally a shadow which is the outline or representation of the original. It can be translated as a shadow / image / phantom. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Consider Plato's ....... The 'Allegory Of The Cave' is a theory put forward by Plato, concerning human perception. Plato claimed that knowledge gained through the senses is no more than opinion and that, in order to have real knowledge, we must gain it through philosophical reasoning.The shadows represent a false vision of the truth, an illusion about reality. ... Plato represents the philosopher with the brave prisoner who climbs out of the cave to discover the real world, and who wants so badly for his fellow prisoners to know the truth, that he voluntarily climbs back into the cave to tell them. In my personal view, climbing out of the cave and seeing for yourself far exceeds a lifetime of philosophical reasoning .... but each to his/her own. Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 11 hours ago, PaulS said: No, it just opinion. Yours aligns with some others that have come before you, as do mine. Still, it is all just opinion. Stating that your opinion more critically considers analyzing the implications is again, just an opinion. You are of course entitled to it. As our fellow member Rom might say, you couldn't think any other way at this point of time anyway, as for me. Again, I have simply taken all you have said and shown that, given what is the timelessness of the cosmos and what you profess about the atoms, to say that a human life of X amount of years is meaningful is illusion, is absurdity. It is easier to dismiss it as mere opinion than consider the ramifications of the position. 11 hours ago, PaulS said: If one can believe that life has meaning because it is a gift from God, then in my opinion it doesn't have to be more nuanced than that unless one creates that nuance. Again, it seems to come from a place of ego not wanting to cease to exist, in my opinion. That is to say, that is how I see it, at this point in time. I like some of Spong's words on the matter - "True religion is, at its core, nothing more or less than a call to live fully, to love wastefully and to be all that we can be. That is finally where life’s meaning is found. All else is background music.". To me, Spong also seems to think his life has meaning & purpose irrespective of whether there is an afterlife or not. Of course, that is just his opinion too. But I'm happy with that, whereas others may not be for whatever reasons. Each to their own. For me personally, I don't believe in an afterlife but still believe and feel that my life has meaning. I'm content with that. You can keep insisting that my life has no meaning because I don't believe in an afterlife, but my experience tells me different. No. more nuanced that your statement. Have you read Spong's book on Eternal Life? Again it is not simply that life has purpose, it is that what is believed about God (man, life) inevitably breaks through mortality into eternity. I have no problem with your opinion as you are entitled to it. I have been discussing a position on the meaningfulness of life and stated a conclusion based on the tenants of that position. 11 hours ago, PaulS said: I'm not sure who you think is 'demanding' that life is meaningful - my experience simply is that it is, without the promise of an afterlife. You state that life is meaningless unless there is an afterlife - indeed your logic takes you to that position apparently. I just don't see it that way at all. Each to their own. Personally, I'm leaning toward not getting hung up on this concept of 'man' needing to continue after death. One thing we DO know, is that after death the atoms DO continue. Even the bible says man was made from dust - so perhaps it was recognizing that our atoms come from other and later return to other (I doubt that actually understood atoms at that pint, but maybe recognized the futility of thinking man was something other than a product of the universal elements. Man is created and man dissolves, but the atoms remain. Perhaps that is possibly where the 'awareness' lays - within the atoms of the universe which make up every single part of it. Who really knows. Then we simply change it to 'believing that life is meaningful' in this belief/position. Actually it is that I think life is meaningful (and I have given the reasons why) and that leads inevitably to belief in 'eternal life.' Not vice versa. And those atoms care not a whit for the limited life of X, nor will he be remembered - so all his efforts, thoughts, feeling, accomplishments are nothing to the atoms, nothing to the cosmos: they have no meaning whatsoever. Atoms have awareness? Now, you're really reaching. Well, this has been fun and a nice diversion form Virus-watch, so thanks and now back to gardening and moving the earth: truly meaningful work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 15 hours ago, JosephM said: Use the word hidden if you like it better and re-read all the posts and you might get the gist. However this is my last attempt ....Jesus was indeed not God/Self because as a man he was a creature we refer to as a human/person. However, he Jesus the person realized that the flesh profited nothing and willingly sacrificed it because he understood that " in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;" The /Self/God was in and through him and he knew it and if one doesn't believe the writings they can better yet experience it for themself. He also is recorded saying if you have seen me you have seen the Father. The Father was present in him and manifested but to many they could not see through the disguise of the person Jesus. In reality God/Self/Pure Awareness/The One etc was present as he is in you but to the eyes of most others Jesus was just a person. Hence I say when a person comes to the full realization of who they are at the deepest level, the Self appears and one knows that the person is just a disguise because in absolute reality there is only God. The rest is not what it seems. Therefor in the beginning i said to you in my first post on page 6 ... "You are Awareness disguised as a person." I get that this is it: this kind of discussion is involved: language is inadequate, understanding is finite and, given all this, it is sometime extremely difficult to communicate to others what you believe. When I was in college, we use to do this, quite literally for hours at a time in the student union building and the professor has since then re-created how he uses language to communicate what he 'sees.' 16 hours ago, JosephM said: Use the word hidden if you like it better and re-read all the posts and you might get the gist. However this is my last attempt ....Jesus was indeed not God/Self because as a man he was a creature we refer to as a human/person. However, he Jesus the person realized that the flesh profited nothing and willingly sacrificed it because he understood that " in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;" The /Self/God was in and through him and he knew it and if one doesn't believe the writings they can better yet experience it for themself. He also is recorded saying if you have seen me you have seen the Father. The Father was present in him and manifested but to many they could not see through the disguise of the person Jesus. In reality God/Self/Pure Awareness/The One etc was present as he is in you but to the eyes of most others Jesus was just a person. Hence I say when a person comes to the full realization of who they are at the deepest level, the Self appears and one knows that the person is just a disguise because in absolute reality there is only God. The rest is not what it seems. Therefor in the beginning i said to you in my first post on page 6 ... "You are Awareness disguised as a person." I agree we are called to realize we are 'together' in/with God. Where I disagree, and perhaps I just state it differently, is that the person is real (as the man Jesus was real) yet becomes his 'truest self' with this realization, i.e. the Christ. I must admit that the language of 'make believe, fiction and delusion' gets in the way rather than making things more clear and it is probably a stumbling block for many Westerners. Yet even in this Buddhist description, there seems to be more that the unconditioned Reality, there is 'each' who must decide on enlightenment and awakening. 16 hours ago, JosephM said: If you were the creation, then you are surely dead for nothing that is created in this world is permanent and survives and leaves this world. Only that which creates survives. Til you know who you are, "Who am I" the delusion continues and the fairy tale lives. We began as the creation and it is the created who must come to realization - one who is dead cannot do this, so we are neither dead not fully Alive. Yet most meet death and are not yet enlightened, so they are still the creation perhaps with moments of creating - thus they must continue the journey until they awaken. Not so much a fairy tale for such people but an unfinished story. 16 hours ago, JosephM said: That sounds pretty good to me except the part of free choice and that God is not disguised as them. It seems to me, If God wasn't disguised in people then everyone could plainly see God in all creation and there would be no one asking for proof of God. Yes? On sages, it seems to me, most don't bother writing . It is usually their followers that later do the writing. I think there is good reason for that. The sage job is not to explain away your questions but rather to assist you in finding Self/ Christ wherein is hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. That is what is mean by epistemological distance: God remains at a distance or hidden so man is not overwhelmed but can 'awaken' on his own and not be forced to wake. In this way, it is man's 'decision' (what value is the coming together of man in God if it is not a life freely given, as was the life of Jesus?). It is interesting that God 'chooses' to be hidden or at an epistemological distance, it would be so much easier to be overwhelmed by the beatific vision or if the hidden was fully revealed. Why does the Self remain hidden? It seems it is for man so that man/woman/all creation truly gives itself to Self. There is One, there is Self....but because of who/what that Self is, he 'let's be' rather than keep Life for Self. And we are born to be in the likeness of Self. Some sages write as I was just reading Merton and Eckhart although I do agree on the role of the sage. 7 hours ago, JosephM said: PS. A study of Hebrew and the word translated in the KJV of the Bible in Genesis reveals man is a shadow of God. A shadow is not the real thing. It is an illusion or phantom. Who's phantom is it? God of course. It is God disguised as a person as all things are disguised that are created in this world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Consider Plato's ....... The 'Allegory Of The Cave' In my personal view, climbing out of the cave and seeing for yourself far exceeds a lifetime of philosophical reasoning .... but each to his/her own. Interesting, I still like 'image and likeness' but shadow if not yet real, becomes real when there is awakening and enlightenment. I remember the Cave from grad school. People learn differently, for some it is 'philosophical reasoning' that empowers them to climb out of the cave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted April 15, 2020 Author Share Posted April 15, 2020 11 hours ago, thormas said: Again, I have simply taken all you have said and shown that, given what is the timelessness of the cosmos and what you profess about the atoms, to say that a human life of X amount of years is meaningful is illusion, is absurdity. It is easier to dismiss it as mere opinion than consider the ramifications of the position. I know you 'think' you have shown that - but you haven't shown anything other than your opinion. And that is fine - it's just that it's opinion and not a demonstration of evidence of what is. You think that a human life of X amount of years as meaningful is illusion, is absurdity. I think that opinion is odd, but that is my opinion. I think the ramifications that come from your opinion are not logical, but that's me. I haven't dismissed anything, I just don't find your opinion compelling. In fact, I find it wanting, but that is my opinion. Quote Have you read Spong's book on Eternal Life? Again it is not simply that life has purpose, it is that what is believed about God (man, life) inevitably breaks through mortality into eternity. Yes, I have read it and Spong's view is definitely that he doesn't know what comes after death, if anything, and further if there is nothing, then he is happy his life has meaning without eternity. I think what you are confusing is 'hope' he may have, which he simultaneously acknowledges may not matter. Spong does not claim that life definitely breaks through mortality into eternity, not in any sense of identity like you say is the only way it can be or otherwise life is meaningless. Quote I have no problem with your opinion as you are entitled to it. I have been discussing a position on the meaningfulness of life and stated a conclusion based on the tenants of that position. Yes you have - your opinion. Quote Then we simply change it to 'believing that life is meaningful' in this belief/position. Which is completely different when it comes to considering ego. One is a demand, a decision - the other is experience. Quote Actually it is that I think life is meaningful (and I have given the reasons why) and that leads inevitably to belief in 'eternal life.' Not vice versa. I understand for you it leads there, for others it doesn't. The issue we have mainly been discussing is that you have said one's life is meaningless unless there is an afterlife. No afterlife - no meaning, according to your previous claims. I don't agree, but there you go. Quote And those atoms care not a whit for the limited life of X, nor will he be remembered - so all his efforts, thoughts, feeling, accomplishments are nothing to the atoms, nothing to the cosmos: they have no meaning whatsoever. Atoms have awareness? Now, you're really reaching. To say such means nothing to the cosmos promotes a sense of expertise and knowledge that you simply do not have. So to postulate that atoms may somehow be related to or even have 'awareness' is not reaching, but something to consider/postulate on if one wants. Each to their own. You are already convinced of your opinion, so I wouldn't expect you to be open to it, but that's okay. You (like me) probably can't be anything else at this point anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, PaulS said: know you 'think' you have shown that - but you haven't shown anything other than your opinion. And that is fine - it's just that it's opinion and not a demonstration of evidence of what is. You think that a human life of X amount of years as meaningful is illusion, is absurdity. I think that opinion is odd, but that is my opinion. I think the ramifications that come from your opinion are not logical, but that's me. I haven't dismissed anything, I just don't find your opinion compelling. In fact, I find it wanting, but that is my opinion. Ok, just for fun. Of course I have but your mistake is that you think we are dealing with evidence - whereas it's logic. 2 hours ago, PaulS said: Yes, I have read it and Spong's view is definitely that he doesn't know what comes after death, if anything, and further if there is nothing, then he is happy his life has meaning without eternity. I think what you are confusing is 'hope' he may have, which he simultaneously acknowledges may not matter. Spong does not claim that life definitely breaks through mortality into eternity, not in any sense of identity like you say is the only way it can be or otherwise life is meaningless. No one 'knows' what comes after death so to say Spong doesn't know either is not news. It has to do with what he believes. Thus no one can or does make 'claims' rather he expresses hope based on faith. 2 hours ago, PaulS said: Yes you have - your opinion. Again, I have no problem with your opinion, which is your right. I have been 'debating' a position. 2 hours ago, PaulS said: Yes you have - your opinion. potato, po-tat-to 2 hours ago, PaulS said: I understand for you it leads there, for others it doesn't. The issue we have mainly been discussing is that you have said one's life is meaningless unless there is an afterlife. No afterlife - no meaning, according to your previous claims. I don't agree, but there you go. This was about me and my opinion so........it is not about others, I was simply stating the correct understanding of my position - as in my :+} Also, I have been discussing the parameters you set for your position..........thus, the life of a man, for example, of some 60 or 85 years is meaningless given them and in your position there is an 'afterlife' (or continuing life).......only for atoms. 2 hours ago, PaulS said: To say such means nothing to the cosmos promotes a sense of expertise and knowledge that you simply do not have. So to postulate that atoms may somehow be related to or even have 'awareness' is not reaching, but something to consider/postulate on if one wants. Each to their own. You are already convinced of your opinion, so I wouldn't expect you to be open to it, but that's okay. You (like me) probably can't be anything else at this point anyway. Again, just going with what you have presented. And now atoms in and of themselves have awareness? And self-awareness? Actually I have no problem with being open to and even working/struggling to see another's POV as I have been doing with Joseph's presentation and his ideas on disguise, hiddenness awareness and Self. You, on the other hand, never bothered to provide an explanation of your own position. Given what you have said in your position, how are any human actions, feelings or thoughts meaningful? So they are to you - but how are they meaningful and what is their meaning - after you are dead and everyone who knew you is dead - in the timelessness of the cosmos and the never ending life of atoms? I was right, that was sort of fun. Edited April 15, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted April 15, 2020 Author Share Posted April 15, 2020 4 hours ago, thormas said: Ok, just for fun. Of course I have but your mistake is that you think we are dealing with evidence - whereas it's logic. I think your mistake may be that you think that your logic is THE logic. It's not. Your logic, like mine, comes from and helps form, opinion. This is all influenced by our life experiences, our exposures, our different educations, religious upbringing, etc. Logic is a concept, a way of approaching inquiry, but I think in this conversation you are mistaking your logic for truth (at least that’s how it seems to me in the way you have portrayed yourself in this discussion). I fully understand that your use of logic has gotten you to this position, as has mine, but at the end of the day, it is personal and not the same as another's result of their use of logic. We use logic to develop our opinions, but opinions differ, clearly. Quote No one 'knows' what comes after death so to say Spong doesn't know either is not news. It has to do with what he believes. Thus no one can or does make 'claims' rather he expresses hope based on faith. But as I pointed out, Spong doesn't 'believe' that there is life after death, he 'questions' whether there is. That is a major difference between what Spong is saying and how you are portraying him. He clearly states that there is meaning to this life even if an afterlife doesn't exist. The absence was f an afterlife does does make Spong’s life meaningless he is saying. You say there that without an afterlife, then this life is meaningless (but then argue because you think there is meaning to this life that it then means there is an afterlife. I find that argument incoherent). Quote This was about me and my opinion so........it is not about others, I was simply stating the correct understanding of my position - as in my :+} Well to a degree that is true - it is your opinion that other people's opinion are absurd and you don't understand them, and to me it seems that in this instance you can't contemplate the other’s POV. Quote Also, I have been discussing the parameters you set for your position..........thus, the life of a man, for example, of some 60 or 85 years is meaningless given them and in your position there is an 'afterlife' (or continuing life).......only for atoms. You keep saying that - that its meaningless. I say it's not. I wonder how long does this will go on for. Quote Again, just going with what you have presented. And now atoms in and of themselves have awareness? And self-awareness? Even you would acknowledge there has been a lot found out by science that certainly never seemed fathomable previously. Certainly quantum science is presenting new weird and wonderful ways of understanding things that seemed contrary to what was previous understood. But for the final time, I am not saying that atoms have awareness or self-awareness, I am postulating that maybe there is more to your's and mine understanding of atom. We know we all came from the same atoms created during the Big Bang, so really who knows what may be not yet understood. You believe in an indescribable invisible entity of love existing somewhere you can't define, or explain how it actually exists or came to be. Postulating about that can seem ludicrous to some people also. Each to their own. Quote Actually I have no problem with being open to and even working/struggling to see another's POV as I have been doing with Joseph's presentation and his ideas on disguise, hiddenness awareness and Self. I would say you pick your moments. Quote You, on the other hand, never bothered to provide an explanation of your own position. Given what you have said in your position, how are any human actions, feelings or thoughts meaningful? So they are to you - but how are they meaningful and what is their meaning - after you are dead and everyone who knew you is dead - in the timelessness of the cosmos and the never ending life of atoms? I thought you must have understood my position seeing as you were saying it was absurd and were pretty forthright in saying that my life is meaningless unless there is an afterlife. Interesting that we should get to this point and only now are you are asking what meaningfulness means. To me the meaningfulness is in the living. I have already explained that's how I see and experience it. I don't think my life is any less meaningful because I or others will forget about it one day. I realize that is not enough for you. I suspect this is what the Buddhist concept of ego is pointing to. Whatever the case, I'm not sure I can help you understand any further. Maybe you will experience it yourself, maybe you won't. Personally, I don’t think it really matters. But I do think we have pretty much done this to death. Thank God this conversation will never be eternal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, PaulS said: I think your mistake may be that you think that your logic is THE logic. It's not. Your logic, like mine, comes from and helps form, opinion. This is all influenced by our life experiences, our exposures, our different educations, religious upbringing, etc. Logic is a concept, a way of approaching inquiry, but I think in this conversation you are mistaking your logic for truth (at least that’s how it seems to me in the way you have portrayed yourself in this discussion). I fully understand that your use of logic has gotten you to this position, as has mine, but at the end of the day, it is personal and not the same as another's result of their use of logic. We use logic to develop our opinions, but opinions differ, clearly. Now there are not only opinions (which is fine) but now you relativize logic? This sounds like the Trump argument about alternate facts. 10 hours ago, PaulS said: But as I pointed out, Spong doesn't 'believe' that there is life after death, he 'questions' whether there is. That is a major difference between what Spong is saying and how you are portraying him. He clearly states that there is meaning to this life even if an afterlife doesn't exist. The absence was f an afterlife does does make Spong’s life meaningless he is saying. You say there that without an afterlife, then this life is meaningless (but then argue because you think there is meaning to this life that it then means there is an afterlife. I find that argument incoherent). Maybe you're reading a book by Charlie Spong? The Spong I read says, "I have found in the quest for personhood an ability to embrace infinity which leads me to the conclusion that I can and must share in that infinity." and "I believe deeply that this life that I love so passionately is not all there is. This life is not the end of life." And this from a chapter entitled 'I believe in Life beyond death.' Then there is one of my favorites: ".......finitude finally fades into infinity, earth is the doorway to heaven and the human is and can be transformed into the divine." So ..........however like many of these discussions, I'm in it to learn so I am looking again at both Spong and John Hick, a favorite of mine, that Spong quotes. Actually you consistently misstate my opinion: I say that life is meaningful because of what we believe about God (and man) and that belief - as it does for Spong - continues into life beyond death, the sharing in the infinity that is God. Life is meaningful, man is meaningful, because man's journey begins and is lived in the infinity of God and culminates in that infinity. It is all of a piece. In this view, the light of man is never extinguished and burns brighter into infinitely - and beyond :+} This life is so meaningful (given it's source and destiny) that of necessity it spills over into infinity or fullness. The problem and the question with the position you presented, in light of the timelessness of the cosmos, is what is man, what is his meaning? You admit it is all about the atoms continuing so man is just a dim light in endless time that fades as soon as it lights. I it not meaningless because there is no afterlife, it is meaningless because of its view of man: he is a bit player, off the stage before he is even on it. Why does man exist? No real reason: he is a happenstance, a product of evolution: here and gone, signifying nothing. Whether is is Harry or Tom or Jill or Joan - it doesn't matter any more than a tree is a pine or an elm or a cedar Christians don't buy this: it is man that is meaningful or finds meaning in this life, it is man, the self-conscious being, who shares in universal consciousness that is God: man is meaningful . 10 hours ago, PaulS said: I wonder how long does this will go on for. For me into infinity, for you not so much :+} 10 hours ago, PaulS said: But for the final time, I am not saying that atoms have awareness or self-awareness, I am postulating that maybe there is more to your's and mine understanding of atom. We know we all came from the same atoms created during the Big Bang, so really who knows what may be not yet understood. Here too we differ: I acknowledge coming from the stuff of the Big Bang but, unlike you, my position is there is that which is prior to anything, including the Bang: Being/Self/Awareness/God 10 hours ago, PaulS said: You believe in an indescribable invisible entity of love existing somewhere you can't define, or explain how it actually exists or came to be. Postulating about that can seem ludicrous to some people also. Each to their own. It doesn't exist, it didn't come to be and it isn't somewhere - it is before all that does exist. Am I correct you also disagree with Joseph's presentation on this? 10 hours ago, PaulS said: I would say you pick your moments. Don't we all as not all moments call for it. However even in this moment I am reexamining Spong and Hick. 10 hours ago, PaulS said: I thought you must have understood my position seeing as you were saying it was absurd and were pretty forthright in saying that my life is meaningless unless there is an afterlife. Interesting that we should get to this point and only now are you are asking what meaningfulness means. To me the meaningfulness is in the living. I have already explained that's how I see and experience it. I don't think my life is any less meaningful because I or others will forget about it one day. I realize that is not enough for you. I suspect this is what the Buddhist concept of ego is pointing to. Whatever the case, I'm not sure I can help you understand any further. Maybe you will experience it yourself, maybe you won't. Personally, I don’t think it really matters. But I do think we have pretty much done this to death. Thank God this conversation will never be eternal. I was going on what you gave me but I did find it odd that you did not try to further explain it - as you just said "I (meaning you) have already explained it" so I did understand what you presented. However, you have still not explained how anything is meaningful given the timelessness of the cosmos and your emphasis on atoms. I don't think the conversation will be eternal but like the cosmos it could be timeless or could last eons. Ruh-roh!. Edited April 15, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 6 hours ago, thormas said: The Spong I read says, "I have found in the quest for personhood an ability to embrace infinity which leads me to the conclusion that I can and must share in that infinity." and "I believe deeply that this life that I love so passionately is not all there is. This life is not the end of life." And this from a chapter entitled 'I believe in Life beyond death.' Then there is one of my favorites: ".......finitude finally fades into infinity, earth is the doorway to heaven and the human is and can be transformed into the divine." Personhood - The small self, the created creature person, the one with his/her story, name , form and the rest of the baggage. Infinity - the Self/God. That person that embraces infinity is lead to the conclusion that that infinity/Self/God/Life (which is eternal) of which self has embraced as his source and shared in must share in that Life eternal. And indeed we all share in that infinity because that infinity is our creator and the very substrate of creation. At that level we as persons, as with the rest of life here, are One with infinity. Life after death? Yes for Infinity/Self but not for the created creature person that in a dichotomy sense houses that which is Self and is sustained by it, and is designed to live and die at the pleasure of its Self. I quote Spong ..... "“Heaven and Hell have got to go” and “Until we dismiss all concepts of reward and punishment, we can’t walk into concepts of life after death.” and “Nobody knows what the afterlife is all about; nobody even knows if there is one" So logically i would doubt that his statement you referenced meant he believed in an afterlife . It might fit into more of an interpretation i postulated above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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