NORM Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I must admit Norm, that it does make me angry when people suggest God is causing or allowing suffering for a greater purpose. I just cannot imagine squatting down on the dirt in some squalid refugee camp somewhere in Somalia, telling a skeletal 6 year old that his parents have been raped and murdered and he is starving to death because it's all part of God's plan! I about clocked some ###### at my father's funeral for saying it. I miss my Dad horribly. There was no deeper purpose to his death. It's just that ###### happens. NORM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Jesus does still heal people, I have witnessed it. Someone close to me was experiencing a narcotic withdrawal, and was shaking and crying and in extreme pain because of it. I laid my hands on them and prayed to God in Jesus' name for their pain to stop, I prayed for awhile, and then all of a sudden they stopped shaking. Their fever left, and they told me later that they had felt a supernatural warmth come over them, a peace that can't be explained. And they were able to rest and get some sleep. Can you miraculously regrow a person's arm that got cut off from war? If you really can perform miracles, why haven't you applied for a Nobel Peace Prize yet or submitted your claims to a double blind scientific study? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Can you miraculously regrow a person's arm that got cut off from war? Just a logic problem I think. Wouldn't it follow that a car is not good transportation because it cannot fly and I shouldn't let my doctor practice medicine on me. Neon, I don't disagree with you on Faith Healing that makes headlines but this amputated arm flying around is aimless. Dutch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Faith healers make all sorts of extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence of being able to cure everything from arthritis to cancer yet there's not a single account of a faith healer ever healing an amputee. If faith healers are really performing miracles yet never heal amputees, either God must have something against amputees or more likely the faith healers are full of it. Edited March 30, 2012 by Neon Genesis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Neon, You have defined your target rather narrowly for your purposes. Take care Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Neon, Public caution... All here are free to make up their own mind and express their opinion on whether they believe or not and why and even challenge the statements of others but there is no need to attack with such statenemts such as "God must have something against amputees or more likely the faith healers are full of it. " It adds nothing to ones position or view and is not appropriate to be used in debate here.. It is enough to say something like 'that in my research no one has healed an amputee, therefore my conclusion is faith healing is not real or God must have something against amputees'. JosephM (as Moderator) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleRiot Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Everywhere men are trying to discredit the Bible and take it from the miraculous. But there is nothing impossible with God. All the impossibility is with us when we measure God by the limitations of our unbelief - Smith Wigglesworth http://bibleriot.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Hi, BibleRiot, Welcome. Why don't you introduce yourself in the Introduction forum. Your blog expresses a lot of certainty. You won't find much of that here. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Everywhere men are trying to discredit the Bible and take it from the miraculous. Or, perhaps the miraculous was never there in the first place. What are your own thoughts on the subject, BR? Or, are you really Mr. Wigglesworth? Welcome to the Forum. As Dutch suggested, you won't find much in the way of dogma around here. NORM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Everywhere men are trying to discredit the Bible and take it from the miraculous. But there is nothing impossible with God. All the impossibility is with us when we measure God by the limitations of our unbelief - Smith Wigglesworth http://bibleriot.com I think Mr Wigglesworth's quote is a bit hollow. It seems common for fundamental Christians to use this phrase "nothing's impossible for God" without demonstrating anything like it. I mean it would seem impossible for this type of God to stop the 7.6million children in the world who die every year from malnutrition, poverty, curable disease, etc. It would seem impossible for this type of God to help everyone "see the light" as less than 1/3 of the world are Christian (and the third that are may argue amongst themselves as to who is a proper Christian or not). And as Neon points out, it would seem impossible for a God who can heal sore backs, stiff necks, limps etc, to physically heal an amputee. Just one single documented case of somebody's arm growing back would seem such an excellent way for God to demonstrate that nothing is impossible for him/her/it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Just one single documented case of somebody's arm growing back would seem such an excellent way for God to demonstrate that nothing is impossible for him/her/it. When I win the $600 Million lotto, I will offer $50 Million to someone who has G-d make their arm grow back. No, wait; I'll give them $550 million. Hell, I'd settle for a regrown hand - not even the whole arm! James Randi is still waiting to pay out $1 Million: http://www.randi.org...-challenge.html NORM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 The amputated arm aimless looking for an elbow to lean on is an incomplete challenge in the world of process thought. Process thought sees that all things, from atoms and cells to humans, are related externally and internally. There is the external world which is what we refer to as objective and there is an internal world, which we call subjective. In a process approach to faith healing the reports of those who have experienced such healing are evidence to be considered not demeaned. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Neon, I glanced through the thread and found no "inflammatory accusations." Maybe a specific quote would be useful to make your point. George On page 2, post #29 In my opinion we stand at great risk today because the secular -- while endorsing the highest moral values -- has a tendency to undermine the very rationale for the morality it endorses. Why this tendency? Because of a metaphysics of nihilism. Nihilism and morality make awkward bedfellows. Not that secularism necessarily entails nihilism. Just that we live at a time when the metaphysics most closely under girding secular movements are nihilistic. How many secular people today would have written anything like what Jefferson wrote? From what metaphysical basis would they derive their course of action against oppressors? Whence the narrative of the good and evil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 The amputated arm aimless looking for an elbow to lean on is an incomplete challenge in the world of process thought. Process thought sees that all things, from atoms and cells to humans, are related externally and internally. There is the external world which is what we refer to as objective and there is an internal world, which we call subjective. In a process approach to faith healing the reports of those who have experienced such healing are evidence to be considered not demeaned. Dutch Right. Like being cured from gum chewing. I would never mock that! Sorry Dutch, but invisible, "internal" healing is not very convincing. NORM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) The amputated arm aimless looking for an elbow to lean on is an incomplete challenge in the world of process thought. Process thought sees that all things, from atoms and cells to humans, are related externally and internally. There is the external world which is what we refer to as objective and there is an internal world, which we call subjective. In a process approach to faith healing the reports of those who have experienced such healing are evidence to be considered not demeaned. Dutch But why is it faith healers only heal "internally" but never "externally?" Isn't this just moving the goalpost? It's like the people who claim to have proof UFOs are real and are coming to Earth and there's a government conspiracy to cover up the truth but the only "proof" you ever see of it are hoaxes, grainy video footage of natural phenenomen, or cheesy UFO shows on the Non-History Channel at 3:00 a.m. in the morning. Why is it ok to demean skeptics and secular people but faith healers deserve this special protection from criticism no other profession gets? Edited March 31, 2012 by Neon Genesis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Neon, I Split off your complaint from this thread and responses from your cautioned post to the complaint section. Please continue any complaint you have with your caution there.as this thread topic is only for opinions on Faith Healing JosephM (as Moderator) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 The amputated arm aimless looking for an elbow to lean on is an incomplete challenge in the world of process thought. Process thought sees that all things, from atoms and cells to humans, are related externally and internally. There is the external world which is what we refer to as objective and there is an internal world, which we call subjective. In a process approach to faith healing the reports of those who have experienced such healing are evidence to be considered not demeaned. Dutch Dutch, Can you elaborate a little more - I don't quite understand. What is aimless about the arm? If people are to argue the merits of faith healing and espouse that God effected the healing, why would it be unreasonable to ask that if that really was the case (God affecting the healing) then why don't we see God healing amputees? I agree that one's own faith may result in one's own healing - I mean we see that in scientific experiements involving placebos. But when the claims extend to the healing being 'caused' by God, God being a distinct enitity that chooses to use its power to affect a healing, then surely the amputee-healing proposal is a fair one? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Paul, I think the point here is that IF one is cured of some disease or affliction and it is verified in some way, saying well that can't be true because there is no record of faith healers causing new arms to grow, in my view, in no way invalidates that there is no valid faith healing. The question of whether 'faith healers' have even prayed for arm amputees growing new arms after prayer, i am not aware of. Why God would give faith to an individual for one thing and not another IS a valid question for which i personally have no answer. But to me the argument does not invalidate 'faith healing'. Of course if one thinks it does, to me that is fine as i have no quarrel with those who choose to believe differently. I would just disagree. Just my own thoughts, Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Thanks for clarifying that Joseph. That would seem to make sense of the point I think I was missing. I don't doubt that people are healed at some faith healings, I just doubt that they are healed by some external force because they have faith. I think more than likely a belief that somehow faith will result in them being healed, has more power than what we understand. But of course, not enough power to heal amputations, etc. Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Paul, I think the point here is that IF one is cured of some disease or affliction and it is verified in some way, saying well that can't be true because there is no record of faith healers causing new arms to grow, in my view, in no way invalidates that there is no valid faith healing. The question of whether 'faith healers' have even prayed for arm amputees growing new arms after prayer, i am not aware of. Why God would give faith to an individual for one thing and not another IS a valid question for which i personally have no answer. But to me the argument does not invalidate 'faith healing'. Of course if one thinks it does, to me that is fine as i have no quarrel with those who choose to believe differently. I would just disagree. Just my own thoughts, Joseph Joseph, your comments do make sense. I think what you are saying is what Dutch, perhaps, was trying to say. Dutch? I still disagree. But, I think our disagreement is just on the agent of healing. What has been called "internal" healing, in my mind translates as mind over matter, or what has been called the placebo effect, as Paul pointed out. Your take on this phenomenon is that it is not the human mind that is doing the healing, but some supernatural being or entity. And, some prefer to call this entity G-d. I'm OK with that. What I do have a problem with are those who loudly proclaim that THEY are the conduit of such healing, and that in order for it to continue, you must send them money. When we did our research on faith healing, a sad truth we discovered is that there were so many dishonest people wearing the robes of righteousness, bilking vulnerable, hurting people of their last bit of savings on the hope of a miracle healing. Maybe, at times, the placebo effect caused this "healing," and maybe there were those who were conducting the healing ceremonies who genuinely felt that it was because of them that this happened. However, there were many that we discovered who were only doing it to enrich themselves. However, it is still a valid criticism that if so-called faith healing was originating from G-d, who the Bible says is omnipotent, then why do we not see limbs regenerated? NORM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I think our disagreement is just on the agent of healing. What has been called "internal" healing, in my mind translates as mind over matter, or what has been called the placebo effect, as Paul pointed out. Your take on this phenomenon is that it is not the human mind that is doing the healing, but some supernatural being or entity. And, some prefer to call this entity G-d. I'm OK with that. Norm, good point about agency distinction. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yvonne Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 George, excellent point. I have a theory that's sort of whacky and I won't share the details of it, but it has to do with the individual's mind, NOT another party acting as a conduit, nor God as a supernatural being intervening. My original question did not have so much to do with "faith healers" as it did faith healing. Anybody have any thoughts on Reiki healing or Chakras? They both seem (with a capital SEEM) to have some connection with faith healing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Heh, when I think of things like Holistic and Herbal Medicine, Reiki, Chakras and Chiropractic, I can't help but recall this episode of Seinfeld: I love Jerry's response: "I'm strictly here for the material." NORM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 George, excellent point. Yvonne, I can't claim credit for the excellent insight - it was Norm. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I also find it interesting that the modern day concept of faith healers doesn't match up with how they're portrayed in the bible. In the bible, the only ones who could pass down the ability to faith heal were the original apostles and while the disciples they baptized could perform faith healings, they couldn't pass the power down themselves to another person. Since the original apostles are all dead now and only the original apostles could pass the power to faith heal down to others, if modern day faith healers really performing miracles, where did they get their power from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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