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Faith Healing?


Yvonne

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Since Yvonne has brought us back on track I'll be brief.

1. A fraud does not invalidate the field of endeavor. Marion Jones' illegal doping which was not discovered until 2007 after 7 years of fame and fortune does not mean that track should be eliminated as an Olympic sport. Fraudulent Faith Healers do not invalidate faith healing as a category of experience.

 

2. We have two sources of knowledge. Materialist science focuses on external relations of entities. Whitehead says that we are deluded if we feel that this study of external relations tells the whole picture. Since we are also related internally our experiences or feelings of beauty, goodness, love, God, healing are also valuable in coming to know reality.

 

3. A Greek God with absolute qualities? Don't know him.

 

Dutch

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Sorry Norm, I gave George your kudos. Sometimes I don't hit on all cylinders. :P and I love that episode of Seinfeld.

Neon, true, but at the time of Jesus it seems faith healing was somewhat more common, or so I've read.

I wish my "heart" wasn't so insistent that there "must" be something to all this, because my "head" says it just isn't so! Yet many, many Christians, and I'm not talking about just fundamentalists (or even just Christians, as far as that goes) study and use both Reiki and Chakra healing. Are they all frauds and taking advantage of others? I don't think so, I think some are very well meaning. The people present when my nephew was "healed" took no money and made no extraordinary claims.

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Fraud in itself doesn't disprove faith healing yet neither does sincere belief prove it as it is possible to be sincere in your belief and be mistaken at the same time. Creationists sincerely believe the book of Genesis is a literal scientific account of the origins of the universe and that doesn't make them right and evolution wrong just because they sincerely believe it nor does that mean they should be protected from criticism just because they're sincere in their mistaken position. But if you go through years of scientific research and extraordinary claims and the best you have is either frauds or some "inward" placebo effect healing, shouldn't that make you at least a little bit skeptical?

Edited by Neon Genesis
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What is your opinion on faith healing? The reason I ask is because my niece's husband claims to have had one. He has a genetic disease that causes all kinds of health problems, the most obvious (though not the worst) concerns his feet - the skin is literally peeling off all the time. He went to a faith healing and claims he was healed. I personally have not witnessed it, but two people, my sister (who tends to blow thing out or proportion) and my other niece (who is extremely practical) claim to have seen his feet and claim they are completely healed.

 

I cannot believe that God heals some people and not others. On the other hand, it would be really great if my nephew-by-marriage were healed. I just really don't know what to think. There are a lot of unexplained things in the world, and I'm open-minded enough to wonder at mystery.

 

What do you think?

 

My take on the orginal post was that Yvonne was asking about faith healing in the context that she couldn't believe that God would heal some and not others, amongst other points. In that context I think the likes of Neon and I are saying that in our opinion God simply isn't healing some and not others (such as the amputee). I, and I think Neon, hold the view that faith healing accredited to a God choosing to use his/her power when they see fit, isn't credible in our view.

 

However if, as I think Dutch is relating, the question is have some people been healed through faith healings, then I'd hazard a guess that most here agree - they have. It can and does happen, but just what is the mechansim - A God answering prayers selectively, or something we don't properly understand having that affect on those who recieve/seek the healing?

 

IMO, I think perhaps the human mind and body has some ability to heal itself, even if it is 'tricked' into doing so by using 'faith', but it would seem that there are restrictions (whatever the healing mechanism is) in that there isn't a single report of a person being healed to the extent of regrowing a limb. It would seem that faith healing through God or through the power of one's own mind, has restrictions. To me, those restrictions rule out the likelihood of God playing a part in the healing (unless by God we are talking about the power of one's own mind & body).

 

Cheers

Paul

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7,600,000 children die every year caused by poverty, hunger, easily preventable diseases and illnesses, and other related causes. Or as you seem to indicate - God.

 

I couldn't imagine such a cruel God.

 

I know people who do believe that the God of the OT did actually order the Israelites on about a dozen occassions to commit genocide (sort of like a Tutsi/Hutu conflict but with God's nod), but again, I couldn't ever imagine a God like that.

 

Where are those children now? (or will be?)

 

&

 

Do some outside studying on the cultures of the nations Israel attacked.

 

Can you miraculously regrow a person's arm that got cut off from war? If you really can perform miracles, why haven't you applied for a Nobel Peace Prize yet or submitted your claims to a double blind scientific study?

I never said I can preform miracles.

 

I said that I prayed to God, and Jesus chose to heal.

 

And you cannot put God in a science lab.

Considering the fact that God created the universe, you can't confine Him to it and it's laws.

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Guapo,

 

You cite biblical verses to support your points. This assumes the divine inspiration of these texts. I would be interested to know how you went about determining that these particular texts are divinely inspired and therefore authoritative.

 

George

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Guapo,

 

How would I know where those 7.6 million children are after they are dead - nobody does, including you. If, what I think you are getting at, they are somehow in a better place, so that justifies their painful and miserable death here on earth, then I'll just quietly shake my head and leave it at that I think.

 

As for studying the outside cultures, I don't need to learn anything about another culture that seemingly justifies the slaughter of children and animals. It is an ancient, racist view that suited the Israelites for their time. Thankfully we've generally left those sorts of views behind as we've evolved as a species.

 

Cheers

Paul

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And you cannot put God in a science lab.

Considering the fact that God created the universe, you can't confine Him to it and it's laws.

There have been studies done on the power of prayer and they showed that not only did prayer fail to heal the patients in the study, but the patients being prayed for had worse results than the patients who weren't prayed for at all.
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Guapo,

 

You cite biblical verses to support your points. This assumes the divine inspiration of these texts. I would be interested to know how you went about determining that these particular texts are divinely inspired and therefore authoritative.

 

George

There are many things. I can get into the occult and I can even get into the authority of Scripture with historical & scientific evidence, and even with personal evidence. It just depends, are you really going to listen to what I have to say or not? I don't want to write everything to you, and then you just ignore it. I'm not trying to be rude, I just need to know if you actually want to listen or if you just want to mock me.

(it would have to be a separate topic as to avoid spam)

 

There have been studies done on the power of prayer and they showed that not only did prayer fail to heal the patients in the study, but the patients being prayed for had worse results than the patients who weren't prayed for at all.

Prayer isn't God, and prayer does not equal a miracle healing.

 

Prayer is a communication tool that we use to talk to God. All you have to do is just start talking to God, and boom prayer.

I don't see what that study has to do with what I said...but okay.

Those results really aren't surprising :3

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But if the study showed the opposite results and showed a positive result for prayer on health, Christians would be jumping all over it and trumpeting it to the skies as proof of God's existence and would suddenly change their mind on science and objective proof. Relativism is only popular in religious circles right now because there's no proof on the theistic side.

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There are many things. I can get into the occult and I can even get into the authority of Scripture with historical & scientific evidence, and even with personal evidence. It just depends, are you really going to listen to what I have to say or not? I don't want to write everything to you, and then you just ignore it. I'm not trying to be rude, I just need to know if you actually want to listen or if you just want to mock me.

(it would have to be a separate topic as to avoid spam)

 

I will listen and I will not "mock" you. But, I reserve the right to question any claims and to disagree.

 

Also, unless I missed it, you have not yet introduced yourself in the appropriate thread.

 

George

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I can get into the occult and I can even get into the authority of Scripture with historical & scientific evidence,

FWIW I would take one narrow topic at a time. These discussions tend to loose focus.

 

For instance, if you are going to talk about the authority of Scripture

 

topic 1: Can a text give witness to its own veracity and authority?

topic 2: Historical evidence: one piece at a time: The dating of the flood, archaeological evidence for David, the dating and manner of the conquest of Canaan, etc. One piece at a time.

topic 3: Scientific evidence. The evolution of the eye, if that is to be offered as evidence for intelligent design, the Great Unconformity between the Tapeats Sandstone, which is dated at about 500 million years old, and the Hakatai Shale, which is dated at about 1.5 billion years old, if that is to offered as evidence

 

You can ignore me. I don't always have the best ideas.

 

Dutch

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Guapo,

 

I also would be interested if you believe the Bible is the single, exclusive written revelation of God. If so, I would be interested in precisely which version and language you think is the correct revelation and why. And, I would be interested in how you proved other religious texts (like the Qur'an or Book of Mormon) to be false.

 

As Dutch suggested, these issues would be best kept in separate threads so as to maintain focus.

 

This could provoke some interesting discussion. Are you open to other's views?

 

George

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In the news in my State today:

 

EXORCISTS who say depression and schizophrenia are demons that can be cast out, are treating children as young as two for possession, a claim the Australian Medical Association has dismissed as unscientific and potentially harmful.

Perth-based Set Right is a non-denominational Christian ministry. Their Leader, known as ‘Apostle’ Michelle Pecoult, says they’ve seen a “massive rise” in possessions, and now exorcise four or five people a day. She said people find them online and through psychic fairs and they also visit schools and prisons.

 

The Set Right website notes that depression is a "common low ranking demon" while schizophrenia is "another demon we have met often and evicted".

 

"We've removed schizophrenia. People have been healed of it… God is greater than any medical doctor, he’s greater than me. We’ve seen absolute physical healing… and people in a major state of depression,” Ms Pecoult said.

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I believe that healings are possible. A friend of mine had one: He had a wart on his finger and someone prayed over it and it fell off. He was quite shocked, because he's Japanese and not Christian. (I wasn't there, but he told me and he's a banker, not a person who's into airy-fairy stuff.)

 

However, I don't think it's, like, one person has the power and zaps another, or that God says, "Bingo!" for one person and not another. I think a person CAN be a conduit for God's healing power and another can be receptive to it. (Remember that passage where Jesus said he'd felt power go out of him, when the woman with a flow of blood touched him?)

 

As to how it operates, I think we need to form a less ham-handed understanding of the relationship between matter and spirit. Dutch says, "Process thought sees that all things, from atoms and cells to humans, are related externally and internally. " I think you have to go to that level to make sense of it and we don't really understand enough about it right now.

 

I do remember going to healing services regularly at one time in my life (for emotional rather than physical difficulties). When they would lay hands on my head, I usually felt waves of heat go down through my body. You can make up all kinds of reasons about why you think that happened, but for me, it simply happened. For that matter, I've had physical problems cured by acupuncture, and we don't know how that works, either.

 

So yes, I believe there's such a thing as healing (whether "faith healing" or "energy healing" or anything else), but I don't believe it's either arbitrary magic zapping OR just a placebo effect. Science is great, but it still can't properly account for near-death experiences and it's helpless with the non-material.

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Tea - very well put. I'm beginning to agree.

"Faith healing", I guess, need not be an either/or thing - either it's from a supernatural God who arbitrarily (sp?) decides to heal some and not others or its a fraud. Either it can be proved and repeated scientifically or its a fraud. As Hamlet tells Horatio: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

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I've had warts removed too. It's called zit removal.

 

This post is flagged as not appropriate. Posters position on this subject has already been stated and this remark adds nothing to the conversation for this forum when considering Tea's post above it . Neon will not be posting for 7 days.

JosephM (as Moderator)

Edited by JosephM
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I don't know a lot about this in the big picture, but I'd like to recount something personal, if you'll bear with me.

 

I have a chronic, incurable illness. I've had it since I was about 15 (so nearly 15 years now). Doctors, medications, surgeries ... they have all been helpful, but there are no cures.

 

I reached a point in my life not long ago, that I started looking "outside the box" for ways to help myself. Would I like a cure? Of course, but I'm not banking on finding one. However - I have found some alternative methods that have provided more symptom relief than medications.

 

Someone (I'm not sure who) mentioned chakra meditation - I do regular meditation, with a focus on points of pain. When I do this, I imagine the places inside my body that hurt covered with a whiteness. While I breathe in and out, the energy is directed to those places, and there is a warmth to it. Since it isn't a permanent cure, it's probably not appropriate to call it "healing," but considering it is often more powerful than the Rx medications I have for pain, it's certainly something.

 

As for the healing power of prayer, I do believe in that. When I had my last surgery (2.5 years ago), a friend in another city was praying for me on and off a lot in those first couple of days, as those days are the worst for pain and discomfort. On and off, I would feel that same warmth in my body, and I would feel my heart rate slow down to a comfortable, relaxed pace. I was allergic to the pain meds they gave me in the recovery room, so I was actually NOT taking a single thing for pain, even that first night, because I was afraid of another reaction. So through the suffering and agony, I could feel this warmth and this comfort, and I didn't actually know that my friend was praying for me at that moment. It was later on that she told me that, and it was incredible.

 

It's just my own story, and of course anecdotal evidence is not proof of anything, but I wanted to share that anyway.

 

As for why some people get healed and some don't - to me, that's like asking why some suffer in the first place, while some don't. It's a question without a real answer. I've been sick for 15 years, and have had moments of real bitterness and anger - why me?! I'm not bitter or angry anymore (mostly) but I still don't have an answer.

 

I'm not sure if I believe a person can lay their hands on someone and cure them of a brain injury or anything like that - and if they can, that's God's work, not the person laying hands. However, after what I experienced post-surgery, it can't hurt.

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I've been somewhat hesitant to say much about "energy work" here, such things as working with Reiki, Pranic energy, Chi Quong, or Chakras, kundalini, etc....many of the things are tossed about lightly among New Agers, not many really know much seriously about them.

But I've experienced such "energies" both as recipient,and giver, and feel postivly about their involving something 'real'. And, having also had occasion experience such as laying on of hands in some types of churches leaning toward the pentcostal, some there have such 'gift' or 'ability' but of course there is is called the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

Actually, the dramatic period of psychological upheaval, 'spirtiual emergency crisis', I experienced some years ago, was, i have no doubt now, connected to my 'exposure' to such energies without my having ever even heard of them before then, or knowing at the beginning something like that was even involved. After many years of increasing very painful and debilitating low balc and sicatica problems that had only grown worse despite efforts by doctors and chiropractors, by one of those what I can only call "synchonistic coincidences", I encountered a woman in context of an oridary daily business matter, that somehow "picked up on" that i was in great pain, and asked me about it. I told her, and she said she could help me.It was just be the most casual "chance" circumstances that I had even encountered her! She told me she was a massage therapist, and offerred to bring her portable table to my home for twice weekly sessions at a very affordable cost. And immediately, she was doing more for me than anyone or anything ever had, and i HAD tried massage therapy before that. I would feel strange 'sensations', warmth, sometimes something like electical currents, in my body as she worked, but again, just thought it was some 'skill' affecting nerves or something. At the time, I attributed it to just "skill"...again, I knew NOTHING of healing energies.

I also had NO idea "who" she was, in that she was actually a very prestigious therapist that regularly treated an elite clientel of famous athletes, at very expensive rates! And that she was driving over 100 miles round trip from her home and office on the far side of Houston just to come treat me!!! It wasn't for over 6 mos, after I'd made dramatic improvement, that she even told me of her office in Houston, told me she felt we had gotten my crisis stage broken, but reccomended I keep seeing her weekly a while, still at that low cost, at her office instead. I was stunned when I went to her office in an expensive clinic complex in an exclusive area of Houston, and saw her walls lines with personally autographed photos of so many famous local and regional sports athletes, national celebrity athletes, with their thanks to her for her helping them!!! Her usual rates were hundreds of dollars per session, she was charging me $25 for an hour!! Why? She said, something just yold her when she saw me, she was supposed to help me, and she knew I didn't have much money! Within 2 yrs, i was entirely well, and haven't had serious problems with the low back, or the sciatica at all, since then.

It was during that time my 'strang things' started happening, and after I'd stopped seeing her regularly I did encounter those working with healing energies on a devoted level, and upon experiencing again "odd sensations", warmth, eletictrical like, etc, realized they were much like what I'd felt from her work...more remarakable, I developed some 'ability' for it, some others were amazed at what they would feel through my touch when I'd feel those energies flowing, i seemed to be able to help ease pain for some. But it also frightened many, most those around me are very tradtional. I went back to her, that therapist, asked her outright if she had been working with any such energies, that she knew of, and she then informed me she is a Reiki Master! Her working on me may have actually 'opened' my own latent potential ability to convey energies, even if on a minimal level.

 

I did some training in the art with a group dedicated to such work, but sadly dont make much use of it, simply because too many around me, that I'm in contact with, are frightened of it, and me, for it. So I rarely mention it.

 

Magical healings? No. therapeutic, yes.

 

Jenell

Edited by JenellYB
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...I did some training in the art with a group dedicated to such work, but sadly dont make much use of it, simply because too many around me, that I'm in contact with, are frightened of it, and me, for it....

 

If it works, why care if the process is "scary?" I don't understand this.

 

Magical healings? No. therapeutic, yes.

 

I'm not sure I buy into the "healing energy" thing, but I am aware of some studies that conclude that the placebo effect can "heal" with often better results than pharmacological methods. In other words, because we think that something a trained professional gave to us will make us better, our minds / bodies are tricked into eliminating the manifestation of the original illness or malady.

 

My mother did this with me as an adolescent. I had terrible allergies and asthma and was prescribed a panoply of drugs (mostly steroids) and breathing apparatus. The drugs were making me sick to my stomach.

 

So, she took me off of the medication, made all of our food from scratch, bought meat from a local farm and butcher, and never served anything with preservatives, additives or refined flours or sugars. She read somewhere that the chemical additives to food could be responsible for many modern illnesses.

 

She also purchased bulk capsules and loaded them with raw sugar and gave them to me when I was having particularly bad allergic symptoms. Of course, I didn't know that the capsules only contained sugar. Amazingly, shortly after I took the "medicine," my symptoms would subside.

 

My mother continued to do this for quite some time until I came home early from football practice and caught her filling the capsules with sugar. She explained her subterfuge, and I had an epiphany: if there were no drugs, then my mind was responsible for relieving the symptoms.

 

Actually, when you think about it, all antihistamines do is relax the inflamed nasal passages. So, I began to will myself into relaxing the nasal passages WITHOUT taking anything. 90% of the time, it works.

 

I still do this to this day. However, when I know that I will be unable to totally relax (like during a meeting or when work needs to get done), I will take a mild antihistamine.

 

No magic - just human will.

 

NORM

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Norm, all I can attest to is what I've experienced. When that therapist worked on me, i knew nothing of energy work, or that she was 'using' anything like that. So it was neither belief nor placebo effect. Later, when I've encountered it again, I can feel it, experience it, through the touch of some people, and that even without any knowledge of that person or that they are an 'opened' energy channel, or worker. I sometimes detect it in just the most casualtouch, a common social handshake, someone casually touching my arm or some such. It is a very distinct feeling, somewhat mildly electrical, sometimes warm. even hot, but it is quite distinct if one has ever experienced it. There are occasional people so strongly open, that transmit so strongly, you can feelit just in theirn presence, even without at touch...such ones as in some communities might be said to be "annointed."

 

But it also cannot be forced upon someone unwilling, with defenses up, against either the energy itself, or the person through which it may be transmitted. When I say I do not 'use' it often for that many are afraid of it, i mean that I CANNOT do so. And many in religious circles are quick to 'condemn' any such 'energy' or 'power' as might be coming through someone NOT fitting their limited and usually heirarchical criteria, part of their religious sect, speaking their particualr religious jargon, speaking in tongues, approved by their pastor, whatever.

 

Reiki and Therapeutic touch are now commonly avaiable to patients at some major medical centers (patients at MD Anderson Cancer center have complimentary access to such therapy) and offerred in training courses for nurses and others that deal hand-on with patients. Theraputic touch has shown to have remarkable positive effect when administered to critically ill and preemie infants. No placebo effect could be at work with infants.

 

Raven, btw, your mention of being able to "feel" something when your friend in a distant location prayed for you, is consistent with advanced energy work..."distance healing" is an advanced level skill taught where energy work is taken seriously, and without doubt, someone that has spontaneiously of their own, developed these gifts, many well be able to do so even if they know nothing of formal energy training, or that it is what they are doing.

 

These energies are very much of love, the one working with, conveying, transmitting, must and can only do so by moving mentally, psychologically, and emotionally into a very deeply submitted loving state of consciousness.

 

Jenell

Edited by JenellYB
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I've read about, seen some documentaries on, Lourdes and a few other sites with such reputation. And, the rigorous process through which the Catholic Church might consider or decalre any such healings as 'miracles.' I do respect the Catholic Church greatly for that, in comparison with how careless and downright untrustworthy claims of miraculous healings are touted and accepted in fundamentalist and charismatic churches and 'ministries.'

 

I can't say i know what is/isn't true or 'real' in these matters. but what I've seen does leave me with some intriguing questions.

 

Given the huge number of people that travel to such a place as Lourdes, and the relative few confirmed cases of 'miraculous' healings' I have to wonder how those rates/odds would compare to occurences anywhere in general, that may be due to spontaneous remissions, mis-diagnosis, actual 'cure' by 'accidental effective treatment' etc. I do know all those things are more common than most people realize, even in 'traditional' health care and even without health care at all. I have personally know of one or more of each of those kinds of unexpected, or inexplicable, 'recoveries' myself.

 

There was quite a stir in the medical community and society at large when recent release of results of several long term studies involving breat cancer and mammograms in women revealed much higher rates of confirmed breast cancer in women getting annual mammograms than among those having them done only every 5 years. The first thought, that the annual mammograms might actually be causing the increased breast cancer rates was effectively ruled out pretty quickly, but what was eventually accepted as the most likely explanation, that was supported by further investigation and research, was that early stage breast cancer tumors spontaneously remit far more frequently than had been realized. Further invesitgation revealed that many cases of early stage breast cancer diagnosis in which for various reasons the women were NOT treated at all, yet were later found free of the cancer, which has long been attributed to initial mis-diagnosis, now seem to involve a mich higher rate of spontaneous remission than had been considered.

 

Other cancers have been found to have much higher rates of spontaneous remissions, especially in early stages. However, this does not really change how early stage cancers should be treated upon discovery and diagnosis, becasue at least for now, there is no way to know which would remit spontaneously and which are going to advance in development.

 

As for mis-diagnosis in general, even with our modern and oft supposed high quality health care, misdiagnosis and missed-diagnosis rates are possible so high as to scare the wits out of any of us that may trust this system! My late ex-husband was treated for recurring illnesses and even hosptialized multiple times with multiple doctors in one of the most respected medical centers in this country, even the world, for over 2 years, until ultimately he sufferred irreversible pulmonary failure and spent his last 2 yrs...a total of being sick 4 yrs---before he passed away. The doctor overseeing the nursing home where he spent his last 2 yrs, on a ventilator, looked his medical records over, and without ever even having seen or examined him yet, asked why he had not been tested for Adult Lymphatic Leukemia...according to him, his was a "text-book" case in every way. The test was done, and at last, too late, my ex-husband was diagnosed with ALL, This is a disease that while incurable, if begin on relatively inexpensive drug therapy in early stages, with which most patients actuallty go on to live put a normal life span. I could cite details of any number of cases of mis or missed diagnosis I've known of personally.

 

As for "accidental cures", I know a man that had multiple surgeries every couple years, for over 25 yrs, to removed recurring benign brain tumors. He underwent bi-annal scans and other tests to monitor the regrowth toward determining when surgery to remove their masses was indicated again. Completely unrelated to that condition, he developed severe pneumonia, treatment for which involved a good deal of powerful antibiotics and other drugs via IV plus oral follow-up. When he went for his routine scans to check on regrown of his brain tumors several months later, there was no sign of them at all, even the regrowth observed prior to the pneumonia incident was gone! That was 12 yrs ago now, and STILL there has been no re-growth of the tumors! Miracle? I don't think so, neither do doctors....none would venture to guess what connected to his pneumonia and treatment affected it, but agree it most likely something did.

 

The last of my questions have to do with why there should be any particular location, or religious shrines, such as Lourdes or others famed for this, connected to miraculous healings. and why of so many that visit such places, such a relative few experience miraculous healings.

 

Jenell

 

 

 

Among the Lourdes' cases, are also multiple cases of MS, a condition also noted for spontaneous remission AND difficulty in accurate diagnosis, and frequent mis-diagnosis.

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