JosephM

WS, To me, “those of all sexual orientations.” does not mean "how you like your sex". To me a Pedofile or Rapist is not a sexual orientation. A sexual orientation is either male, female or neither/Both. Joseph What is sexual orientation? Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions. Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. However, sexual orientation is usually discussed in terms of three categories: heterosexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of the other sex), gay/lesbian (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of one’s own sex), and bisexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to both men and women). This range of behaviors and attractions has been described in various cultures and nations throughout the world. Many cultures use identity labels to describe people who express these attractions. In the United States the most frequent labels are lesbians (women attracted to women), gay men (men attracted to men), and bisexual people (men or women attracted to both sexes). However, some people may use different labels or none at all. FROM THE

Neon, It seems to me that you certainly won't find that requirement in the 8 points of PC and for good reason. It has been the subject of much division in the churches. As suggested by others here, it has different meanings to different people and i have never heard a PC object to such a ritual or symbolism although that does not exclude that there may be some who identify as PC and still hold on to such as a requirement. Joseph

Jenell, It seems to me that sometimes we want something so bad that it creates a blindness to sound reasoning and judgement. I think it happens at times to us all. Strong wants and desires do have their attachments and pitfalls. Sorry to hear about the issue and hoping that real learning takes place as a result of any suffering incurred. Joseph

Said goodbye to my parents a few years ago also and now thinking about it after reading your post. To let go for me , in a sense, is to embrace all. I am reminded of a saying that a motorcycle friend of mine use to say joyfully all the time , no matter what was happening. "It doesn't get any better than this" I have come to understand what is hidden beneath those words and it leads me to also say, i am grateful to my parents. I think they were perfect in their own way even though our eyes and head might say different.

Thank you Bill. And the same wishes for you. Now to try and curb my gluttony for all the fine food today. Joseph

Yvonne, I think you have a healthy attitude toward your friends. I also think you are entitled to keep the terms you are comfortable with in your worship. Perhaps worship is best left more of an individual thing rather than becoming so ecumenical as a group that it loses its meaning to us personally. As far as us losing some of our identity, i think that identity is more in content than context and perhaps might not be a such a negative thing as one might suppose. After all , in a search for meaning, one in my view must eventually or inevitably gravitate toward that which is common in us all. In doing so , it seems to me that there is naturally an identity shift to that which is more permanent and cannot be lost and a fading away of any fear of loss of identity to that which can . Just some related thoughts from your comments, Joseph

Perhaps we are all the same in our own diverse ways of expression?

"The one commandment of Jesus that i have the most trouble with is to love your enemies. I just can't seem to find another i consider my enemy" JosephM

"One can be just about as happy as one will allow oneself to be" " Being bored is a condition, not the knower"

"To be a seeker implies that you need the future. If this is what you believe, it becomes true for you. You will need time until you realize that you don't need time to be who you are." Eckhart Tolle

Just a bit of humor for the day. Saw this signature on a post somewhere and chuckled.... " I dream of a day where chickens can cross the road and not have their motives questioned. "

Great Quote Bill, Seems so true. Reminds me of the quote "Actions speak louder than words" While the author of those exact words are unknown here are a couple similar quotes that are known... "I have always thought the actions of men the best interpreters of their thoughts." ~John Locke "Well done is better than well said." ~Benjamin Franklin And somewhat related... Proverbs 14;4 "Without oxen a stable stays clean, but you need a strong ox for a large harvest."

"Don't take your thoughts too seriously."

May you be granted strength and peace and your grief be brief. Love in Christ, Joseph

No Condemnation in Christ by JosephM If someone asked me , what was the one most important thing that propelled me on my spiritual journey, i would have to say it was the elimination of guilt and self condemnation from my consciousness. Life up to that point was for me filled with written rules, laws and commandments of the Bible, the church, my parents and those placed over me. Sooner or later it seemed always inevitable in my very nature that i would violate one of these precepts. And with that violation would come conscious or unconscious guilt that weighted me down to the point i could no longer truly love myself nor others. I was condemned by my acceptance of these written laws and giving them power over me to accuse me and fill me with guilt. Laws that i found it near impossible to keep at all times. As a result i felt i was slowly dying and could no longer feel joy in the material things i had attained in the world. They could no longer cover up the feeling of the absence of love for such an imperfect creature as myself Condemnation in a biblical sense means an adverse decision or verdict, a judgment, an accusation or damnation. In that sense the opposite of condemnation would be justification or acquittal. It is important for one to keep in mind that there can be no adverse decision or verdict until one is charged or accused with a violation or transgression of some sort. It then stands to reason that there must also be an accuser. In other words, we see there must be a violation or transgression of some sort with an accuser for there to be condemnation. If we can prove the absence of any one of these factors there can be no condemnation. Freedom from these laws came for me from a decision to forgive all others. This making true for me the teaching of Jesus that said. "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you". And with this forgiveness i became as a new creature with the burden of guilt and sin lifted and love surfacing in its place. Col. 2:20-22 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, [21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not; [22] Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? I then understood these written laws and commandments and their purpose and was no longer under their control. However in time, i somehow managed to lose some of this new-found freedom i had become a recipient of. I was certain i knew I was no longer under those written laws yet something was wrong. My prayer was that my eyes would be opened to see such a device that would rob me of this new-found joy and freedom in Christ i had felt. My answer was to come... It was not the written laws but rather 'the unwritten killer' that was slaying me. I had missed the subtle unwritten laws. At the time I was working at GE in Cincinnati, Ohio. Our department had frequent meetings and gatherings for individuals. Being a coffee drinker, I always liked to get started with a good cup of coffee to drink before the meeting or bring it to the meeting. Being brought up to be punctual for all affairs, I prided myself in this virtue. I would leave early to get to work early and get in line early at the department coffee machine of which I was a paid member and wait my turn in line. It never ceased to amaze me how inconsiderate some people could be. Rather than wait for the coffee machine to finish brewing, many would advance to the front and remove the pot from under the brewer and place their cup there to get a cup full before it was finished brewing. I remember thinking to myself many times down deep inside that this is a bad thing to do since it takes the strongest portion of the brew and leaves a weaker brew to those patiently waiting. I watched others do this quick trick so as not to wait in line. I thought to myself how wrong and inconsiderate this is to others. I remember even remarking to God how wrong this was to do such a thing. However, I got no response . It wasn't long after that a traffic jam set my arrival at work later than usual. I was about to be late for a meeting and didn't yet have my coffee. I, without thought, but minding my fleshly need for a hot cup of coffee, immediately advanced to the coffee machine that was still brewing. Quickly I whisked my cup in place of the pot without missing so much as a drop. I filled my cup, proudly returned the pot and headed towards my meeting just in time to hear a voice saying in my head, “Who are you that does the same thing?” I knew right away that this question was a response to my previous remark. I was cut to the quick. I had violated a law and it wasn't in a book. It was a law i had written on my heart. I now knew what unwritten laws were all about. And for those who need to read it in a Bible... Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. I was bringing on my own judgment. Instead of excusing other people for their natural desire/nature for the fleshly things and their prior conditioning, i was continually making new laws for myself. I was accusing and measuring others. I was eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil rather than the tree of life. Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: What does that mean? To me, it meant that even when you haven’t put yourself under a written law you could be a law unto yourself. How? By accusing others. The next verse of the book of Romans reads.... Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) As we go about our daily lives we succeed in writing many laws on our hearts as we continually judge and measure others around us. I learned this through the incident above and now choose to excuse rather than accuse. I hope this sharing of this experience will not only entertain somewhat but will somehow help others in their spiritual journey as they see there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ where there is neither negative accusations nor measuring of others. Where love forgives even before an offence is given.

Hi Yvonne, By chance are you near Newton or Grinnel Iowa? My wife has relatives on her side living there. Most were farmers but most of the farmers have since passed away. The rest are in Missouri.

Thanks so much for all the inputs so far. For those who have not participated, feel free to continue to add your own view. I don't believe there can be any wrong answers since we are looking for what PC is to you and only you can answer that question. Perhaps it would be appropriate now for me to also share what PC is to me. At the risk of being somewhat verbose, here goes.... To me, Progressive Christianity is not a religion but a dynamic and living way or path of relating to life and our relationship with God. A way whose foundation was introduced to me by the reported teachings of Jesus without the bonds of having to accept the formal dogma and doctrines of man disguised as the church system, holy books, laws or rituals. A path that allows for a diversity of writings, words, interpretations, logic, reasoning and changeable conclusions without rejection based on ones present personal interpretation. A spiritual journey or quest that retains the potential to be ever progressing in God on an individual basis all the while adhering to basic principles in line with the simplicity of the reported teachings of love and inclusiveness of but not limited to Jesus and expressed in general as the 8 points of PC. Joseph

Today as in most days, i am most pleased at my unlearning that true knowledge itself might be present. Joseph

George, Yes, that would seem to be the way i looked specifically at UP140 even though the publisher would disagree by their own internal claim. But of course, i do not even consider the NT as necessarily historically correct or accurate in story. Of value yes, but with internal geographical and historical conflicts/claims and other claims that i personally can neither confirm nor disprove nor do i any longer consider it important to me to do either. I have in this life found it advantageous in the things of God to place more faith in the personal revelations given me by experience than in those presumedly stated by others without invalidating them. Joseph

George, I ignored the date, places and historical references as distracting also since i, (we) have agreed with Brent as he said " that personal belief in the revelatory origin of any written work has no bearing on the validity of any such claim. " Besides, it is unverifiable to me. In that light, i ignored all superfluous claims, dates , remarks, etc. and paid attention only to what i considered the real meat. I found in that part of it as much or more value as its related part in the NT because of the somewhat more progressive added commentary that was fitted in. I found agreement with much (but not all) of the the same conclusions i have reached without ever reading the UPapers. Of course, that might not be saying much as i find much agreement in many other religious writings also. Overall i was not really impressed as i think any progressive could probably copy and re-write parts of the NT with a more modern and clearer understanding for readers in this day and age. Just my personal opinion, Joseph PS In summation, i found nothing new but many things ( in the meat of things) were expressed more clearly than its related part of the NT by some additional dialog/commentary contained in the UPapers 140.

Hi Brent, Thanks for your response. I did read it and my personal assessment was it basically was Math 5-7 with some additional details and story and includes a more progressive type commentary that is usually found separately. I thought it did a better job than the NT alone in clarity when speaking of the kingdom of God so there would be less confusion of what i believe Jesus meant than is found in Traditional Church teachings of the same. At the same time, there are also other commentaries existing that essentially say the same things of the identical versus from the NT. After this reading of UP140 , i do think this expansion on the Gospel has real value but to me no more-so than the NT itself plus a progressive commentary of the same. While i think you have provided the "beef" i was looking for, most of it is already provided in the NT and the additional i consider commentary which may or may not be an accurate interpretation. Having said that, i am probably 90% in personal agreement with what i call the commentary in the papers versus my own revelations. Therefor, i am not opposed to anyone choosing to read the Upapers, especially UP 140 as their Bible but would suggest they look at it as just another religious writing and personal commentary by a writer. As far as my conclusions from skimming of some of the other portions of the massive and complex writings are concerned, i have no interest in such matters or validity in my own journey though i certainly acknowledge the desire and validity for such information by others according to their own path taken. Joseph

BTW Brent, To clarify my words, by repeating "so where is the beef? i am not looking in the context of a wise crack but rather looking for something said in the Upapers (without having to read it all) that is the heart of the message that perhaps is not included in the Bible. Something that might speak to me or others deeply and be of possible benefit in my spiritual walk. If you asked me that of the Bible, i could probably provide you with a brief summation of the relevant teachings of Jesus that were of great value to me and perhaps possibly to others just by referencing Mathew 5-7. Joseph

Brent, This can certainly be said of any book making such a claim. it seems to me that skepticism is not a not a negative thing. Or as Wiki SAYS..... Skepticism (or scepticism) has many definitions, but generally refers to any questioning attitude of knowledge, facts, or opinions/beliefs stated as facts, or doubt regarding claims that are taken for granted elsewhere. it seems to me that it is better to question than to believe such a cliam. Believing such a claim without questioning often leads to the conditioning that i think George was speaking of. I concur that it would be counterproductive. So as George said originally and because the papers are so long and complex, i would also ask, " So where is the beef?" In good spirit, Joseph

Here is a thread for those who relate to Progressive Christianity to elaborate on their own perspective of "What is Progressive Christianity to You". Perhaps we will all get a deeper insight by sharing what we see and reading what others have to say? Thanks in Advance, Joseph