Burl

How does one discern revelation from cognition?

Just trying to hold up my end of the conversation. I have nothing to prove, and hopefully sharing real world information and not just spouting off personal opinion. It is a rational way of approaching the issue. Joseph's evaluating the observations of others is a part of reason and experience is a part of it. Still waiting on your thoughts. Reaction and criticism is fine, but it is a far cry from putting your own thoughts on the table.

Evidence relating to experience by others is compelling. I have not had many revelatory experiences, but when an idea is uncomfortable or against my percieved best interest or typical preferences I take notice.

Millions. Guess how many millions before you click. http://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_methodist_in_the_world There is a definite need to attempt to discern revelation from self-generated thought. The traditional Christian method is a council of priests ordained in apostolic succession. I'm not saying that Methodists have the ulimate answer, but I think it is logical and flexible enough to be of practical value. I'm waiting on other ideas, but none are forthcoming so far.

Millions of Christians find it helpful. You have changed your mind and now agree that all divine revelation is not valid, and that all divine revalations are equally useful. Are you ready to start making some constructive criticism and put a few suggestions on the table?

The Wesleyan Quadrilateral is not a litmus test. It is a hermneutic; a framework for productively arranging arguments for and against.

June 11, 2017 Matthew 28:16-20 The Message (MSG) 16-17 Meanwhile, the eleven disciples were on their way to Galilee, headed for the mountain Jesus had set for their reunion. The moment they saw him they worshiped him. Some, though, held back, not sure about worship, about risking themselves totally. 18-20 Jesus, undeterred, went right ahead and gave his charge: “God authorized and commanded me to commission you: Go out and train everyone you meet, far and near, in this way of life, marking them by baptism in the threefold name: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then instruct them in the practice of all I have commanded you. I’ll be with you as you do this, day after day after day, right up to the end of the age.”

I think we always need to attempt to discern if a revelation is valid or if it is a mistaken reflection of self/psychosis. The revelation of Do in the Heaven's Gate cult is an example of a revelation in need of discernment. Contrast that with Crick's dream revelation of the double helix structure of DNA and I think it's obvious one can fairly judge Crick's revelation as superior to Do's. The Wesleyan quadralateral is one method which can be modified and applied more broadly than Christianity. 1) Is the revelation consistent with tradition? 2) Is the revelation consistent with Scripture? 3) Is the revelation consistent with reason? 4) Is the revelation consistent with experience?

How much is to be believed is a personal issue. My question

That is one of the reasons teachers are essential. Anyone who has ever been in a Jesuit classroom knows that you are expected to challenge the teacher at every opportunity. This idea of avoiding others and leaving everything up to divine revelation has no self-correcting mechanism. That's a fault. It works for picking out a spiritual mattress to nap on but not much else.

True enough. My teachers have been invaluable to my spiritual integration. By myself I would be a lost ball in tall weeds.

True story. I had a Zen temple take computer classes from me in New Orleans and the Zen master was the most difficult student I have ever experienced. He would not understand that he needed to understand the logic of the programmers and was completely frustrated when the computer refused to bow to his ego. If had brought his bamboo rod he would have spent half the class thumping his Macintosh. The need for personal guidance from one who is more spiritually advanced is replete in Zen, Amida And Lamanistic Buddhism. One cannot read anything about Zen without coming in contact with the tales of student/teacher interaction. The same is true in Sufic, Christian and the Hindu meditational traditions. The fact that classes and temples exist is inarguable evidence of the need for their existence.

This is where we started. Ouroboros. According to Buddhist tradition, he was concieved when his mother dreamed her side was pierced by a white elephant with six tusks. Buddha was not born normally but walked out of his mother's side, took six steps and declared aloud that was his last incarnation. This is definitely not your average human being. Literally or figuratively, naturally or supernaturally, Buddha was exceptional. You are fortunate to have several Buddhist communities in Mandurah. There seem to be quite a few classes available. Perhaps you could find a Buddhist and ask them for us.

Buddha was not a Buddhist, and Jesus was not a Christian.

I have seen an idea similar to Joseph's before, but DNA and not mind held the nature of individuality.

Yes, a teacher or guide is a necessity. Can't free the self from ego by caging the self within it. That is an ourobous of delusion. Same thing in Sufism and Christianity.

No.

Genuine question. You made a judgment about world Buddhism and I wanted to know the logical basis. Now I know it is anecdotal. One observation about Buddhism I have made is that it is absolutely essential for a Buddhist to have a guru or sensei guide their development. The best that books can do is to point towards Buddhism. One cannot become enlightened by themselves or by reading. I can see a lot of value in the rituals of Buddhism. Prayer wheels, flags, pilgrimages all make sense to me. The idea that an intellectual understanding of religion is superior to a superstitious belief system is a conceit. I am often guilty of this bigotry myself.

Where do you get this information on world Buddhism, Paul? I had the impression you were a bit of a loner in the formal religious sphere.

Why do you assume Buddhists do not take these stories literally? Westerners who are literate and have appropriated Buddhist intellectualism are not representative of the religion. Ask a monk who owns nothing but his saffron cloak and a begging bowl, not a fat and happy Californian with the time and money for books.

No Buddhism? How intolerant ;-) According to the Buddhist scriptures I believe Gautama was conceived when his mother dreamed of a white elephant who plunged its six tusks into her side. When Gautama was born, he immediately took six steps and declared aloud that this would be his last incarnation. No wonder some people prefer this legend to Christian ones! Six tusked white elephants are pretty cool.

Nice three chord melody in C.

June 4, 2017 John 20:19-31The Message (MSG) To Believe 19-20 Later on that day, the disciples had gathered together, but, fearful of the Jews, had locked all the doors in the house. Jesus entered, stood among them, and said, “Peace to you.” Then he showed them his hands and side. 20-21 The disciples, seeing the Master with their own eyes, were exuberant. Jesus repeated his greeting: “Peace to you. Just as the Father sent me, I send you.” 22-23 Then he took a deep breath and breathed into them. “Receive the Holy Spirit,” he said. “If you forgive someone’s sins, they’re gone for good. If you don’t forgive sins, what are you going to do with them?” 24-25 But Thomas, sometimes called the Twin, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples told him, “We saw the Master.” But he said, “Unless I see the nail holes in his hands, put my finger in the nail holes, and stick my hand in his side, I won’t believe it.” 26 Eight days later, his disciples were again in the room. This time Thomas was with them. Jesus came through the locked doors, stood among them, and said, “Peace to you.” 27 Then he focused his attention on Thomas. “Take your finger and examine my hands. Take your hand and stick it in my side. Don’t be unbelieving. Believe.” 28 Thomas said, “My Master! My God!” 29 Jesus said, “So, you believe because you’ve seen with your own eyes. Even better blessings are in store for those who believe without seeing.” 30-31 Jesus provided far more God-revealing signs than are written down in this book. These are written down so you will believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and in the act of believing, have real and eternal life in the way he personally revealed it.

In the Christian tradition the ever-presence of grace is most closely associated with John Wesley, who delighted in identifying different manifestations of grace. Air can be clear, cloud, wind, fog, polluted, &c. Grace can be observed in many different forms as well. A smile, a kiss, a good laugh. Not different, but not exactly the same either.

Sorry. I have been privately instructed by our admin Joseph to not communicate with you in the first person. Concepts and ideas only svp. Please rephrase your question in third person and feel free to contact me personally via PM.