Burl

Can't blame anybody for not being able to 'eff' the ineffable!

Thank you, Tariki. Excellent essay by Rev. Keenan on a Mahayana interpretation of Christianity. A bit turgid for a simple meditation, but fine content. Summarized for easier digestion, the good Rev. assumes that Jesus was indeed God and mankind is not. His observation, arrived at via Mahayana philosophy, is that the nature of Christ can also be described as an emptiness rather than as a consubstantial instance of humanity and divinity per Chalcedon. It is an argument for the uniqueness of Jesus, but the semantics are novel. It echos Paul in Phillipians, who also uses a metaphor of emptiness. Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! The introduction also goes into much more detail about the influence of Greek philosophy on Christianity I mentioned previously.

Thank you, Steve. Meister Eckhart was the real deal.

You are not wrong. I would like to hear more about this Mahayana perspective.

Yes, it is a common belief but it comes more from Plato and Milton than the Bible. Much of what I post here is trying to present an accurate biblical view, not the folksy common beliefs that we were typically taught as children. Everything needs to be dumbed down for children and beginners but the members of this board are beyond that. If you search the bible in the original languages for 'heaven' you will find it is a rare term. 'Eternal life' is not, esp. in the Gospels. Commonly these terms are synonymzed, but they are not the same. The importance is that anxiety about death is a human characteristic. One can repress, deny or sublimate that anxiety but it is still there. Most here intellectualize it away, which is a superior defense mechanism, but the anxiety is still not removed.

I can't find that Eckhart quote. The closest I have is in sermon VII. “Wouldst thou be free from all grief and trouble, abide and walk in God, and to God alone.”

Philosophy of Science was a required course for my BS. Too late for you my friend, but you can catch up with Wikipedia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science

That Kuwaiti video is viral in the ME right now. The Qu'ran states that the prophet Jesus, not the prophet Muhammad, will be the one to return and preside over the day of judgment. Progressive Christianity is everywhere!

Hello Fatherman! Actually there is no afterlife in Christianity. There is eternal life where consciousness present now continues past the death event, through a waiting period and eventual resurrection but there is no death of consciousness nor is there any 'after' anything. That afterlife business is kinda stuck in community belief and preachers get sucked into it the same as many others, but that is not the imagery in the Gospels.

So I can assume, Tariki, your Buddhism is not derived from the scientific method? Just as pure science can point towards sub-scientific but still valuable observations, grace points from God through mankind in sub-divine but still valuable observations. Revelation, inspiration, imagnation, philosophy, art, religion &c. Depending on the question, Buddhism may be a better means of understanding than science. Dreams are a particularly interesting limnal area. Crick's conception of the double helix structure of DNA, the songs "Yesterday" and "Satisfaction", the sewing machine, the ring structure of benzine and even Descartes discovery of the scientific method itself came from dreams. One can analyze these from both a scientific and a gracious perspective, but a gracious perspective is more useful in trying to increase the number of these breakthrough revelations. The scientific method can be accessed, but ends in non-productive and dismissive scepticism. Buddhism will get us closer to the truth than science.

I hear you, but allow me to advance the model. Only a subset of reality can be examined scientifically. If you have spent any time in real science, you know that scientists usually examine only very minute aspects of reality. They are sharpening knowledge to a wire edge, not casting fishing nets into the unknown. There is another subset which can never be examined scientifically. This includes the origin of the universe, the nature of life, are we "all one", do we have free will, the nature of consciousness, what is good and evil &c. Very important questions, but excluded from scientific investigation. Between these two subsets of questions we can 'know' and questions we can 'think' is a huge number of things we can 'think that we know'. Science can only point to them by adding non-scientific methods such as extrapolation, generalization, correlation, semantic inference, induction &c. This non-scientific extension of science into non-science is useful. It allows us to posit practical guesses at truth which can be highly beneficial, but they are still only informed guesses. This is the semi-science which is often accepted as fact but later demonstrated to have been incorrect.

All three requirements must be met or it is either pseudoscience or semiscience. Who taught your philosophy of science course? This is usually covered in the first lecture.

Science is only applicable to physical noumenon which are 1) measurable, 2) repeatable and 3) observable from an independent frame of reference. Those are definite limitations.

True enough in theory but not in practice. Science is an ongoing search to find the least false answer to a limited set of questions. Not truth, but that which is least false. Scientific 'facts' in every field have changed drastically in just the past 50 years. Science is never finished. It can never be a fixed conclusion. It is always a moving target. Science thought dinosaurs were reptiles until it thought maybe they were birds. Newtonian physics was intellectually unassailable until Einstein. Statin drugs prescribed to prevent atherosclerosis have been shown to cause it. Is Pluto a planet this year or not? That is theory. Practice is to first incorrectly take science as a fixed truth. Then use non-scientific means such as generalization, correlation and extrapolation to extend science into the unknown. This results at best in a pragmatic truth but never a veridical truth. Science is best tool we have for a limited set of questions, but it has definite limitations.

I have had many productive conversations and discussions here, but when people become argumentative or ask trolling questions then I generally disengage and ignore them.

Admins can do what they wish. I put my thread OUT of the PC area deliberately. Traditionally, the PC area has been the exact opposite of a safe zone. In my experience, it has only misused as a "gotcha" to bully Christians who are not liberal enough and heretically cross the 8 points of PC dogma. Typically that has not really been a bad thing, but it would be nice to see the board grow instead of chasing off all the new members.

Why contend with the beliefs of others when you can simply walk away? In Matthew, Jesus tells his disciples not to cast pearls before swine. Good advice, IMHO.

Excellent, Paul! Hoisted on my own petard! Actually laughed out loud!

You have been here a while, Thormas. Were you attracted by the name "Progressive Christianity"? Would you have been attracted if the forum was named "Progressive Spirituality"? I have been posting here for maybe a year or so. In that time, you are one of perhaps two members who joined and stayed. Dozens have come and left very quickly. Almost all explicitly Christian who evidently feel this forum has very little to offer the thinking Christian. And they are right. We are a half-dozen or so big, fat, self-righteous frogs sitting on our lilly pads who fight over the occasional fly.

Paul, you are a moderator so you are expected to observe and enforce the restriction that posting in this section is reserved for those who at a minimum self-identify as Christian. This was just pointed out in very large letters by the administrator. Non-Christians are welcome to read but not to participate. There are plenty of other areas for non-Christians on this board. There are other areas where everyone is welcome to post but the administrator specifically moved my post out of one of those open areas and into this area restricted to those who subscribe to the 8 points of the Progressive Christian creed. It wasn't my idea.

Yes, please continue Thormas. Jen stated that she was offended, and received self-justifications instead of an apology. Nothing new about that. String theory and the existence of additional dimensions is an active area of theoretical physics and mathematics. If one believes we are 'all one' that is a multidimensional belief structure. The multi-dimensional nature of the cross was noted by the Apostolic Fathers. There is a lot to discuss.

"We are Christians", in heavy bold, is the overarching requirement. One must self-identify as Christian but they may retain their own definition of Christian.

May 28, 2017 John 17:1-12 The Message (MSG) Jesus Prayer for His Followers 17 1-5 Jesus said these things. Then, raising his eyes in prayer, he said: Father, its time. Display the bright splendor of your Son So the Son in turn may show your bright splendor. You put him in charge of everything human So he might give real and eternal life to all in his charge. And this is the real and eternal life: That they know you, The one and only true God, And Jesus Christ, whom you sent. I glorified you on earth By completing down to the last detail What you assigned me to do. And now, Father, glorify me with your very own splendor, The very splendor I had in your presence Before there was a world. 6-12 I spelled out your character in detail To the men and women you gave me. They were yours in the first place; Then you gave them to me, And they have now done what you said. They know now, beyond the shadow of a doubt, That everything you gave me is firsthand from you, For the message you gave me, I gave them; And they took it, and were convinced That I came from you. They believed that you sent me. I pray for them. Im not praying for the God-rejecting world But for those you gave me, For they are yours by right. Everything mine is yours, and yours mine, And my life is on display in them. For Im no longer going to be visible in the world; Theyll continue in the world While I return to you. Holy Father, guard them as they pursue this life That you conferred as a gift through me, So they can be one heart and mind As we are one heart and mind. As long as I was with them, I guarded them In the pursuit of the life you gave through me; I even posted a night watch. And not one of them got away, Except for the rebel bent on destruction (the exception that proved the rule of Scripture).