Burl

One of the Lindau gospels.

Definitely French poodles for the Avignon papacy. But don't leave us Protestants out. Henry VIII English bulldog, Martin Luther German Shepherd, a pair of Greater Swiss Mountain dogs for Calvin and Zwingli . . .

No, it's just evidence that an intellectual understanding of Christianity is not required. I have preached to the mentally retarded and the psychotic, and guarantee you that intellectual elitism is a bigger spiritual stumbling block than either of those disabilities.

October 8, 2017 Matthew 21:33-46 The Message (MSG) The Story of the Greedy Farmhands 33-34 “Here’s another story. Listen closely. There was once a man, a wealthy farmer, who planted a vineyard. He fenced it, dug a winepress, put up a watchtower, then turned it over to the farmhands and went off on a trip. When it was time to harvest the grapes, he sent his servants back to collect his profits. 35-37 “The farmhands grabbed the first servant and beat him up. The next one they murdered. They threw stones at the third but he got away. The owner tried again, sending more servants. They got the same treatment. The owner was at the end of his rope. He decided to send his son. ‘Surely,’ he thought, ‘they will respect my son.’ 38-39 “But when the farmhands saw the son arrive, they rubbed their hands in greed. ‘This is the heir! Let’s kill him and have it all for ourselves.’ They grabbed him, threw him out, and killed him. 40 “Now, when the owner of the vineyard arrives home from his trip, what do you think he will do to the farmhands?” 41 “He’ll kill them—a rotten bunch, and good riddance,” they answered. “Then he’ll assign the vineyard to farmhands who will hand over the profits when it’s time.” 42-44 Jesus said, “Right—and you can read it for yourselves in your Bibles: The stone the masons threw out is now the cornerstone. This is God’s work; we rub our eyes, we can hardly believe it! “This is the way it is with you. God’s kingdom will be taken back from you and handed over to a people who will live out a kingdom life. Whoever stumbles on this Stone gets shattered; whoever the Stone falls on gets smashed.” 45-46 When the religious leaders heard this story, they knew it was aimed at them. They wanted to arrest Jesus and put him in jail, but, intimidated by public opinion, they held back. Most people held him to be a prophet of God.

I was going to comment on the value of precise speech, but the house across from me is getting a new shingle job after Irma. The roofers are listening to Norteño music, and have started playing percussion with their nail guns and I'm smiling so hard I can't think.

Yes, God created magnetism, the earth, moon and sun. All physics and biology and natural laws long before there were people to even have a community so God = community seems to be a non-starter. In Exodus there is a phrase translated as "God filled the tabernacle". In other places, the bible uses the same verb to describe a soldier enlisting as "filling a shield" and another use which escapes me right now (see notes on the Shöcken Bible, an interesting translation of the Pentateuch which concentrates on retaining the poetic aspects of the Hebrew). Instead of reading this as container language, the phrase may be better translated as God taking up the Israelites for His purpose. God taking up community as a functioning tool to effect salvation.

Past and future communities? Animals, planets and magnetism? I think panentheism posits community exists within God, but community is not God. To say community is God is like saying birds are air or fish are water or a kitchen is a house.

Yes. I would describe it as a method of organization that includes a way to organize things which unexpected or unknowable.

Two commandments - love God; love others - is not reasonable if God is community. If God was not seperate from humanity two commandments would be unnecessary. This conception of God seems based on conventionally Christianity, but cuts out anything that requires serious contemplation or deeper thought. Reminds me of a kid who only wants to eat the beef in the beef stew and picks everything else out without realizing those bits he rejects are what gave the meat the flavor he enjoys.

Peterson is interesting in that he spends so much time thinking out loud. One can see him forming new connections while he talks.

One reason for the decline of Christianity is the sin of egoism. People simply believe what they want to and ignore posted warning signs.

First in a series of public lectures on this topic by a Jungian psychologist. Not theology, but how the Bible expresses universal human themes and archetypes. If you like Joseph Campbell's wonderful work on mythology this should be right up your alley.

I must ask you, Bill, why are you so insistent on propounding on what you do NOT believe instead of what you DO believe? What is to be gained by insulting my beliefs with your low information understanding of Christianity? If you are sincerely interested in my beliefs I am happy to educate you, but insulting my beliefs insults me personally. I imagine there are a thousand and one things you do NOT believe. Please change to what you DO believe. That is what is interesting.

Islam does a more thorough and poetic version of the Trinity in the 99 names of Allah. I especially like the way the number 99 avoids the closure of an even hundred. http://www.islamicity.org/5855/99-names-of-allah/

There are not any people in the Trinity, much less three. The Greek word used in the doctrine is personas, which refer to a theatrical masks or an actor's roles. The Trinity are of the same ousious, or substance which is used in the Aristotelian logical sense of substantia. This argument of "the church splitting God into three different people" is simply not factual. I agree that the church typically does not explain it well. One must really go after the subject understand it or be left with the low info Sunday School version. The three personas expressed by God all share the same divine will, but each persona appropriates certain primary attributes. All attributes are shared by all personas, but the aspect of omniscience is primarily attributed to the Father, wisdom to the Son and love to the Holy Spirit.

Bill, please use a good translation and post the passages you are imagining and we can discuss them. You keep throwing up rough approximations and loose interpretations. The exact wording is crucial. Back to your recollection about what someone once told you about the Trinitarian doctrine that does not hold when limited to only first grade arithmetic. What rationale would people have for establishing such a doctrine circa 300 A.D.? Surely it was not an effort to increase belief. Today understanding string theory, multiple dimensions and double-slit experiments are a standard part of the undergraduate physics curriculum. 50 years ago the church considered Trinitarianism an unknowable mystery. Today our knowledge of the physical world has improved so much that a third century conception of a first century religious history fits nicely into established scientific theory.

The word salvation has an English definition. Healing is related, but healing is not salvation nor is wholeness or anything except salvation. People can have individual opinions but not individual definitions.

Thormas, didn't Jesus cure the leprechaun? Agree on panentheism. Even Calvin agreed on this in his notes on the NT. We exist within God, but we are not gods ourselves.

Salvation is not personal and moral wholeness. Those are simply part of being a good person. The definition of salvation is deliverance from the power and penalty of sin. The doctrine of the Trinity is not 1+1+1=1. Next I guess I will hear light cannot possibly behave as a wave and as a particle. The doctrine of the Trinity is: God is the Father God is the Son God is the Holy Spirit The Father is not the Son The Son is not the Holy Spirit The Holy Spirit is not the Father Most religions make sense and are open to sensible and intellectual exploration and scrutiny. Christianity is especially open; Protestantism in particular is heavily based on reason. However, religions use reason to inductively point towards a closer approximation of the unproveable. What kind of person ever says about anything, "I cannot reason it therefore it cannot be so"?

The folks BillM was talking about are not serious and dedicated bible scholars. Christianity today is chock-a-block full of mediocre preachers, priests and penetants who are neither serious or scholarly but they fill a need. Nothing is wrong with traditional Christianity. Reader's Digest Condensed Books were very successful and many people enjoyed them. Only a very small percentage of humanity acknowledges a deep and pervasive drive for conscious contact with God. We PC types are typically unsatisfied with stereotypical western Christianity, but that does not mean that worship of Jesus Christ cannot provide that conscious contact nor does it discount the fact that the Reader's Digest version of Christianity works just fine for the vast majority of people in the world. Reason can be a steep barrier to salvation. Really now, what good is a religion that only satisfies the intellectually elite?

I'll stick with fine dining and skip the buffet.

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The high priests and leaders of the people came up and demanded, “Show us your credentials. Who authorized you to teach here?” 24-25 Jesus responded, “First let me ask you a question. You answer my question and I’ll answer yours. About the baptism of John—who authorized it: heaven or humans?” 25-27 They were on the spot and knew it. They pulled back into a huddle and whispered, “If we say ‘heaven,’ he’ll ask us why we didn’t believe him; if we say ‘humans,’ we’re up against it with the people because they all hold John up as a prophet.” They decided to concede that round to Jesus. “We don’t know,” they answered. Jesus said, “Then neither will I answer your question. The Story of Two Sons 28 “Tell me what you think of this story: A man had two sons. He went up to the first and said, ‘Son, go out for the day and work in the vineyard.’ 29 “The son answered, ‘I don’t want to.’ Later on he thought better of it and went. 30 “The father gave the same command to the second son. He answered, ‘Sure, glad to.’ But he never went. 31-32 “Which of the two sons did what the father asked?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said, “Yes, and I tell you that crooks and whores are going to precede you into God’s kingdom. John came to you showing you the right road. You turned up your noses at him, but the crooks and whores believed him. Even when you saw their changed lives, you didn’t care enough to change and believe him.

There used to be a book series called "Reader's Digest Condensed Books". Each one contained a highy abridged version of a half-dozen or so novels. All completely destroyed the wisdom and artistry in the originals by reducing everything to a simple plot. Do your own research. Read the bible and pray for understanding. Stop relying on other peoples lame synopsis for the basis of your faith.