Burl

What I am saying is that the social constructs "gay" and "homosexual" did not exist in biblical times as we know them today. Same sex sex was a socially acceptable behavior in Roman, Mithraic and Hellenic cultures. Male/female couples engaged in this behavior. Male/male sex between adults and pederast/catamite relationships between men and boys were also socially normative. Ignoring this is, by definition, ignorance. I use this word specifically and not as a general purjurotive. The idea of arguing for Paul 'not being gay' is absurd. It is a "when did you stop beating your wife question". Claims and speculations require evidence, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You are the required to support your statement, and you have nothing except completely unfounded guesswork. Jesus criticized both fornication and adultery. Same sex relations fit within this range of behaviors, but Jesus did not mention it specifically. Paul touches on same sex relations as an examplar a couple times but never compares different types of sexual sins either.

Same sex relationships were an accepted part of biblical era Roman and Greek culture. Gay and homosexual are contemporary concepts which did not seem to exist in 1C society. Scholarship, not ignorant speculation, is what we need.

"No male or female". "God is love". Paul recommended not marrying unless one had a overriding compulsion for sex. I know little about sexuality in the biblical period except a few factoids. Male/male sex in Hellenic culture was often a pederast/catamite relationship between boys and men which echoed the pervasive patron/servant power dynamic. There was also strong competition between the Christians and the all male cult of Mithras favored by the Roman military. In any event, biblical sexuality was certainly not conceptualized the way we see it today in 21C. In Romans 1, Paul describes homosexuality not as a sin but as the natural consequence of denying God but I have yet to hear anyone preach on this passage accurately. One cannot understand such a nuanced and individual characteristic by oversimplifying it into the intellectual 20C ghettoes of identity politics.

If I had to I would guess Paul was asexual.

I do not assume Paul was heterosexual. There is no evidence of that either. Show me evidence Paul was a choir director and I will reconsider your wild guess.

Nov 26, 2017 Matthew 25:31-46The Message (MSG) The Sheep and the Goats 31-33 “When he finally arrives, blazing in beauty and all his angels with him, the Son of Man will take his place on his glorious throne. Then all the nations will be arranged before him and he will sort the people out, much as a shepherd sorts out sheep and goats, putting sheep to his right and goats to his left. 34-36 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Enter, you who are blessed by my Father! Take what’s coming to you in this kingdom. It’s been ready for you since the world’s foundation. And here’s why: I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me a drink, I was homeless and you gave me a room, I was shivering and you gave me clothes, I was sick and you stopped to visit, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37-40 “Then those ‘sheep’ are going to say, ‘Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry and feed you, thirsty and give you a drink? And when did we ever see you sick or in prison and come to you?’ Then the King will say, ‘I’m telling the solemn truth: Whenever you did one of these things to someone overlooked or ignored, that was me—you did it to me.’ 41-43 “Then he will turn to the ‘goats,’ the ones on his left, and say, ‘Get out, worthless goats! You’re good for nothing but the fires of hell. And why? Because— I was hungry and you gave me no meal, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was homeless and you gave me no bed, I was shivering and you gave me no clothes, Sick and in prison, and you never visited.’ 44 “Then those ‘goats’ are going to say, ‘Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or homeless or shivering or sick or in prison and didn’t help?’ 45 “He will answer them, ‘I’m telling the solemn truth: Whenever you failed to do one of these things to someone who was being overlooked or ignored, that was me—you failed to do it to me.’ 46 “Then those ‘goats’ will be herded to their eternal doom, but the ‘sheep’ to their eternal reward.”

I don't care about speculating about Paul's sexuality. I could not even define sexuality in the NT period using 21C concepts. If you do not believe the basis of your speculation is factual this cannot be a productive conversation.

Pleased to know you accept the writings of Paul as factual. That's definitely a good thing. Lenses affect our vision, but starting with a conclusion then sifting for evidence is not using different lenses. It is looking through wrong end of the telescope. “The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness Is like a villain with a smiling cheek, A goodly apple rotten at the heart. O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!” ― William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

Your claim, so use your evidence. I never made any claims about Paul but you did. Your supposition must be based on something you believe to be factual otherwise it is pure fantasy.

Your complete lack of evidence is noted.

Absurd. No evidence whatsoever, unless one counts the appearance of rainbows and unicorns in the KJV. What evidence is there? I know you do not believe the Bible to be evidentiary, so this idea must come from extrabiblical sources I am unfamiliar with.

Paul's homosexuality?

Here there has been a steady move to "progress" by endorsing pedophilia and bestiality. Do not be surprised if "Tie me wallaby down, boys" moves from the hit parade to an alternative lifestyle. Strailian women tell me there are plenty of wallabys on the dating scene already ;-)

November 19, 2017 Matthew 25:14-30The Message (MSG) The Story About Investment 14-18 “It’s also like a man going off on an extended trip. He called his servants together and delegated responsibilities. To one he gave five thousand dollars, to another two thousand, to a third one thousand, depending on their abilities. Then he left. Right off, the first servant went to work and doubled his master’s investment. The second did the same. But the man with the single thousand dug a hole and carefully buried his master’s money. 19-21 “After a long absence, the master of those three servants came back and settled up with them. The one given five thousand dollars showed him how he had doubled his investment. His master commended him: ‘Good work! You did your job well. From now on be my partner.’ 22-23 “The servant with the two thousand showed how he also had doubled his master’s investment. His master commended him: ‘Good work! You did your job well. From now on be my partner.’ 24-25 “The servant given one thousand said, ‘Master, I know you have high standards and hate careless ways, that you demand the best and make no allowances for error. I was afraid I might disappoint you, so I found a good hiding place and secured your money. Here it is, safe and sound down to the last cent.’ 26-27 “The master was furious. ‘That’s a terrible way to live! It’s criminal to live cautiously like that! If you knew I was after the best, why did you do less than the least? The least you could have done would have been to invest the sum with the bankers, where at least I would have gotten a little interest. 28-30 “‘Take the thousand and give it to the one who risked the most. And get rid of this “play-it-safe” who won’t go out on a limb. Throw him out into utter darkness.’

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I was commenting on this weeks lectionary selection.

All of the parables are concerned with the realization of the Kingdom of God. Conscious contact. Enlightenment. The parable of the ten virgins is about the need to be constantly attuned to the possibility of spiritual reality and not distracted by mundane existence.

The changes were intentional. I have always waited for someone else to start the discussion because I do not want to push my ideas too far forward and turn this into a bible study but few members seem interested in what Jesus is reported to have taught and did. I changed to The Message because it reads clearly and is an unfamiliar translation. I thought this would be both accessible and stimulating. I also limited my posts to Gospel readings as they more closely conform to the PC concept of staying close to Jesus as a teacher and role model. OT, Psalms, Proverbs and epistles are less direct. I do wish there was more discussion. To me, the single most interesting thing about this week's reading is that Jesus is teaching by using fiction. This event never happened. It is not literally true, but it teaches with a wisdom which is beyond mere facts.

Nov 12, 2017 Matthew 25:1-13The Message (MSG) The Story of the Virgins 25 1-5 “God’s kingdom is like ten young virgins who took oil lamps and went out to greet the bridegroom. Five were silly and five were smart. The silly virgins took lamps, but no extra oil. The smart virgins took jars of oil to feed their lamps. The bridegroom didn’t show up when they expected him, and they all fell asleep. 6 “In the middle of the night someone yelled out, ‘He’s here! The bride-groom’s here! Go out and greet him!’ 7-8 “The ten virgins got up and got their lamps ready. The silly virgins said to the smart ones, ‘Our lamps are going out; lend us some of your oil.’ 9 “They answered, ‘There might not be enough to go around; go buy your own.’ 10 “They did, but while they were out buying oil, the bridegroom arrived. When everyone who was there to greet him had gone into the wedding feast, the door was locked. 11 “Much later, the other virgins, the silly ones, showed up and knocked on the door, saying, ‘Master, we’re here. Let us in.’ 12 “He answered, ‘Do I know you? I don’t think I know you.’ 13 “So stay alert. You have no idea when he might arrive.

I missed your definition of consciousness.

Well, a lot of Christians are definitely in sects.

YHWH by Mark Rydeno

November 5, 2017 Matthew 23:1-12 The Message (MSG) Religious Fashion Shows 23 1-3 Now Jesus turned to address his disciples, along with the crowd that had gathered with them. “The religion scholars and Pharisees are competent teachers in God’s Law. You won’t go wrong in following their teachings on Moses. But be careful about following them. They talk a good line, but they don’t live it. They don’t take it into their hearts and live it out in their behavior. It’s all spit-and-polish veneer. 4-7 “Instead of giving you God’s Law as food and drink by which you can banquet on God, they package it in bundles of rules, loading you down like pack animals. They seem to take pleasure in watching you stagger under these loads, and wouldn’t think of lifting a finger to help. Their lives are perpetual fashion shows, embroidered prayer shawls one day and flowery prayers the next. They love to sit at the head table at church dinners, basking in the most prominent positions, preening in the radiance of public flattery, receiving honorary degrees, and getting called ‘Doctor’ and ‘Reverend.’ 8-10 “Don’t let people do that to you, put you on a pedestal like that. You all have a single Teacher, and you are all classmates. Don’t set people up as experts over your life, letting them tell you what to do. Save that authority for God; let him tell you what to do. No one else should carry the title of ‘Father’; you have only one Father, and he’s in heaven. And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them. There is only one Life-Leader for you and them—Christ. 11-12 “Do you want to stand out? Then step down. Be a servant. If you puff yourself up, you’ll get the wind knocked out of you. But if you’re content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.