BeachOfEden

Here is the link My BeliefNet Dialog For Moderate Christians I have advertsied this on all the mainstream denominations of Beliefnet that i could think of and I am going to ask them their take on the 8 points.

The far fundamental right's power is that the Protestants Fundamentalists AND The Protestant Evangelicals have joined forces. Therefore, wouldn't make sense that Progressive Christians and Moderates join forces on what WE DO agree on? Whether Progressive or Moderate we all agree ALL agree that the way the far right Fundamental Protestants like Jerry Felwell and the Southern Baptists Convention has approuched gays is wrong and hateful and that they way they have expressed thier views on women and other raciest does not reflect the Golden Rule aka Social Justice. We agree that this war is wrong. We do NOT view our Catholic or Unity Church or non-Protestant church going family members and friends as doomed or unsaved. Should we not astablish a common ground and force of unity with Moderates based on these common points of views?

This IS the problem for ME... "one side talked about the number of unborn lives lost each year, while the other pointed to the 100,000 civilian casualties in Iraq." I am a progressive Christian but I am not have have never been Catholic but I do not support either of these forms of taking human life. I agree that i do not believe that others should try and stop gays from getting married and I have no idea why the far right is obessed with this objective and i am also a big supporters of women rights and racial equality as well...but the fact that i support all these things..but I am a pro-lifer from the left is the reason I can not vote...because what i said how "I" can not make a choice in what form of life taking I perfer..unborn children or young men in war. Maybe others feel they CAN make a choice..But I can not...If this huge obstacle was removed than this would not be such a block for me. Pro-lifers are not welcomed on the left and pro-women's equality is not welcomed on the right (where I don;t want to be anyways. Also we get alot of flack from the Humanists who simply don't like Progressive Christian or any type of theist themed belief system even if it is liberal..So I myself don;t know what to do about all this.

I have searched all over the web with the key words "Moderate Christinity." And nothing comes up. I know there must be a collection of Moderate Christians..somewhere..but WHERE are they? I have created a short term dialog group for "Moderate Christians" on Beliefnet and so i will see what happens and what i learn.

I, for one would be very intersted in having Moderate Christians dialog with Progressive Christians. I would like to know where the Moderate Christians are, where their online communties are (cause I have had a hard time finding any) and i would like to know how moderates would view each of the TCPC 8 points and see if we might share many, if not nearly all social justices views. There are '2' possible ideas for this. Someone might create a forum for Moerate Christians or a Moderate+Progressive dailog forum....or TCPC could create one. What is all of you guy's views on this?

"It's not about belonging to a group, it's about having the right beliefs. The required belief is summarized nicely by Paul in one sentence (with context): 1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes ... 9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” A progressive Christian or any non-Evangelical protestant can passionately state they DO this..but the Fundamental Protestants will still reject their claim and still tell them that their "beliefs are wrong", Unorthodox", that they are NOT REAL Christians, NOT saved,ect...

"Tea, you bring up some interesting points. I think one big problem with progressives is that we don't all have some unified position on anything." I think we do. Progressives, Liberals AND moderates all agree on extending the Golden Rule/completel equality to BOTH sexes and all races. Right? That's a good start right there. All the moderate and Progressive churches allow women to be pastors, which contrast with say Southern Baptists/the far right. What unifies the fundamental churches is they all believe in a literal hellfire and "left beind" threats and all the Progressives and moderate mainstream churches have already voiced in their offical statement that they reject both of these beliefs, well, that IS another thing that unifies us. Isn't it? "I really like this website's 8 points. But it is a rarity to see the beliefs of progressives put into one clear statement like that. And in reality the 8 points are pretty flexible!" We could all take turns voicing what the 8 points mean to each of us..and would could also ask for modeartes opinions on what they think of the 8 points. Do all progressives believe the same thing about Jesus? Perhaps not..but all moderates and Progressives DO contrast from fundamentalists in that they do not believe that only Protestants are Christian and they do not look down on Catholics and others as "Unsaved". QUOTE "When there is no distinction between what is right and what is wrong because we want to accept everyone's beliefs, there is a serious problem." Moderates and Progressives and Liberals already DO agree that the kind of sexism displayed such as in Southern Baptists IS WRONG. And ALL already agree that social treatemtn for ALL is right. "I think you gave a nice litany of things that we as progressives might agree on-- preemptive war, rape of the environmnent, etc. And I htink we might agree that fundamentalist tend to define "values" as "stuff that goes on in the bedroom". I read an article that says that those congressman with the highest ratings by the Religious right organizations have the worst environmental records as judged by the League of Conservation voters." Then let's voice this FACT. "Well perhaps there might be a problem here. I love my country too, but my definition of loving my country is not "my country right or wrong". I think that is the "easy" thing to see. I don't actually believe in patriotism, as it is often followed-- as it implies that we kind of drape ourselves in the flag. Look where that got Nazi Germany (BTW, I am not saying you said that either!!!). But you see that type of patriotism going alogn with GW Bush. I'm not saying he is another Hitler, but that people are following him quite unquestioningly. GWB says to go into Iraq, yep he's the president, we should believe what the president says. You hear a lot of this lately. Give us this right or that one? yes the president says we need to. Torture prisoners? Well these are different times, we might need to do that." I don;t either. I greatly appreicate the freedoms of this country but I do NOT think that America is more blessed than other countries by God and I feel with people voice this like this, God Bless America! Then this comes very close to a cult-like idolizing and creature worship of America. "I also believe that a lot of fundamentalists are acting out of fear. Fears of diversity, end times (after all you see this everywhere right now), fear of "The Other", etc. We don't have a magic salve for that." We stand apart from this because we don't embrace a "Left behind" fear tool and we we can be proud of this. "I think it would be VERY difficult for progressives to come off with one voice, as we don't really ahve one voice, but I appreciate the thoughts. You gave us a lot to think about." Let us converstae with Moderates and hear their voice and maybe together we can find common grounds, unify and grow a voice.

Excellent SweetTea! First, the far right is not shy about voicing their rejection of the terms "Liberal" or "Progressive." In light of this....I understand what Jim Wallis is trying to say and do but in my humble opinion this love-affair with insisting on keeping the term "Evangelical" is not good. Progressives and even Moderate Christians, PLEASE stop obessing with wanting keep this term. It has become sullied. On Watched Jim Wallis on the Daily show and he voiced his progressive views well, but it was ever so obvious when ever he proudly discribed himself as an "Evangelical" John Stewart eyes began to twitched uncomfortably. NOT at the mention of the word "Jesus" or "Christian" or even when he quoted Scriptures..but when ever he said the word "Evangelical." We all know what is ONCE used to mean but it has morphed into a completely different meaning. Also SweetTea is right, we must be more vocal in questing the Fundamental Protestant's contridictive explaination on defining Christianity and "Moral values" as trying to prevent gays from getting married and blessing this war while completely ignoring the very basics of Christ's Golden Rule of treating ALL races, BOTH sexes and all orientations equally..the way we OURSELVES would like to be treated and taking care of our earth and animal kind. We Progressive Christians need to voice that WE DO have "MORAL VALUES" and they are not based on blessing wars or stopping weddings they are based treating every person, the earth and all live upon it the way WE OURSELVES would LIKE to be treated. I am so baffled that SO many Evangelical Lights..NON-far right Moderates WANT SO badly to be accepted by the Fundamental Protestnats as "Orthodox" when they don't even agree on 'their' way of presenting 'their' idea of "Orhtodox" Christianity in the world anyways. I mean, they say, "Oh gosh! there's goes the Southern Baptists demeaning women again in their statemtns to the press! There they go again telling gays they are going to hell. There they go again telling us Progressives that we are New Age false unsaved "CULTS" again!...But gee, I really hope they will embrace us and our church as "Orthodox" and not lables US a "CULT." Why do such Evangelical Lights voiced their outrage at the far rights bigotries and religious intolerance one moment..and then beg for them to accept them into their elite version of "Orthodox" Christianity?

There is a Catch-22/contridiction amoungst the fundamental protestantism's interpretation of salvation in which they 'say' Jesus died for ALL...but in reality to THEM even if one claims to have accepted Jesus as savior if they are Catholic or Mormon or anything OTHER than an Evangelical Protestants, then these Evangelicals will deny that your salvation is valid or real..and that IS the catch-22 or the "Members-ONLY" salvation theory. Being " a member" here with the Evangelicals equals being one of THEM, an Evangelical and if you are NOT an Evangelical Protestnat, then to THEM..there is NO salvation. As a Progressive christian, 'I" do not believe that one HAS to belong to Evangelical Protestantism or any group to get your salvation valid are REAL. I have NO "cath-22 or "members-ONLY" salvation theory in my faith or relationship with God.

"albeit if you don't believe Jesus died for your salvation, what's the point of being a Christian." I believe Jesus died for all. The difference, I see between my Progressive christianity verses what I see in Fundamental Christianity..is that Fundamentalist Christians have a members-ONLY (aka Evangelical Protestant) salvation.

"It is called Christian Forum. The link is on my other computer I will get it when I can get there. They give you a Christian icon if you are Christian, but they said I was not Christian and said I had to remove the icon. I said I believed in the Niceene Creed and that Jesus was my savior, but they didn't care." Well, I'd likely last there even shorter then cause I do not even believe in the Niceene Creed. " I don't think they like me using the term Christ consciousness. I don't see anything wrong with it because it helps me put everything into perspective." Evangelicals would think that's New Age and New Age scares them.

Which Christian forum was this banned from?

..I mean has ANYONE here EVER heard of a called-tagger group aka "anti-cult movement being ran by a Prebysterian? A United Methodists or any mainstream protestant? Or are they not ALWAYS by Southern Baptists and Pentacostals?

Well, WHO is it that is going around calling EVERY faith that does NOT agree with 'their' interpretations of the bible as "CULTS."? is it the Progressive Christians? The Moderate? Secondly, this bunch that IS doing this, do THEY even consider their beliefs as 'interpretations'..at ALL?

"Well it is very graphic. I suppose I might find it erotic if I were a gay guy (?). Perhaps the idea is to show gays that they can be g0y (or something) and enjoy it. Or else it is just an excuse to run another graphic erotic internet site. They may defeat their own purpose. To my knowledge they don't even do the requiste "I'm 18 or older". IMO, if they wanted to introduce g0y eroticism and the issues in a serious way they would really need TWO sites. One that was issue oriented and one with eroticisms. Mind you I don't think they are wrong. Just that they defeat their purposes turning off conservatives they may be trying to reach." My thoughts precisley. Maybe the non-X-rated version could be called "GEY" and explain that the "E" stands for "ethical" gays.

Ok, here is HopeDance Now, keep in mind this is a liberal political mag, but noticed HOW they advertise and circulate. Something like this? Maybe?

Here's the idea. A collective effort of Progressive christians start a free Progressive Christian newspaper and we offer to circulate them. Advertisements for Progressive Christian books or Progs that own buinesses could be used to help pay for the mag. Cool cafes could be advertized as well. Want ads,ect. TCPC could ask the different churches on their listings if they'd like to advertise their churches. Book reviews could be sent in. Stories about Progressive christians helping their communties. . Has anyone ever checked out the free liberal newspaper called HopeDance? I could find the link and post it to get some ideas.

Wouldn't it be cool if all our Progressive stories could be published into a progressive christianity book? Then maybe others can see what a diversed background Progressive Christians come from.

They say a picture is worth a thousand word here's my view on the Fundamental left Behind movement.

Well, the idea I was getting at is not like what the Evangelicals do where they pretend to be whatever you like in hopes of converting you over. the idea would not be to try and trick Evangelicals into becoming Progressive...Rather the zine or mag would simply say, We believe Christianity does not have to be repressive or rigid to be effective", that sort of thing. The idea would be if there ARE Evangelical Lights out there who,'if' they knew Progressive christianity DOES exist..they might discover they ARE already one!

"This is true or bladder infections from heterosexual sex! Or all manner of STDs of AIDs in Africa or Asia. I tend to agree with the www.G0ys.com site. At least I think it has some interesting thoughts and so on. I was not quite prepared with how graphic it is. VERY. :-) BTW, www.g0ys.com was quite adament that straights engaged in anal sex too. They had photos of porn directed at straights. I'm sure it is high risk behavior. Though the safest sex is no sex. But even though the Bush administration is trying to get this taught as the only option for teens, reality wins out all the time. Yes I found the above sites shocking with all sorts of mis and partial truths, and some downright lies. Where they get their success rate is one. They say it is higher than Jenny Craig or Weight Watchers (which by itself might mean success isn't so good!!), but I really doubt it is that good. I think what they mean is that of the people that have gone in for these programs such and such a percent has had change. What they don't say is what kind of change and whether they go back again, which I imagine many/most do. The complete denial of a state of homosexuality--- just is sex acts, is crazy." I agree with you 100%. The G0y site, which, again, for our viewers at home, is ran by a gay man who holds a passionate belief against anal sex for ANYONe, gay or str8 based on medical/health reasons, and he also ads his bibical views. The problem is that this guy belives he MUST use shocking graphic pictures and sometimes offensive street terms for sexual acts or certain types of people that i believe very well. more often than not, offend BOTH liberal gays and straights as well as conservatives alike. While 'some' gay guys might like this approuch, i think the greater majority will end up thinking that one of their own is attacking their own community...kinda like how the fundamentalists call us "CULTS". A second issue with his site is while he lists some valid points medically and some interesting possible Scriptural views....He has this one page called, "But How Do You Know That he is Straight?" Where he tells step-by-step how gay guys can get their str8 buddies drunk so they can sexually take advantage of them and act like it was just all in fun. This not ethical. I mean if a str8 gay was to give this advice to other str8 guys on how to trick the female freinds they think are hot into sex...I think they'd call that date rape. So, while I acknoweldge his good points I see that his bad points and ideas counter act the positive. That was my take.

Thanks for this info,BrotherRog! On the 31st of this month I have jury duty and so I have ordered that book, "Then Things I Learned Wrong From A Conservative Church," and I also ordered a book written by a Catholic intiteld, "Rapture: The End Times Error That Leaves The Bible Behind." By David Curre. I think I will really love this first and I am 'hoping' that this second one about saying no to the rapture will also be Progressive. I will let you know. I might end up doing some book reviews on these and recommending them on my Progressive XJW site. There is also a book I heard of that shows cause for the Conditionalist view rather than fundamental. It's called, "The Fire That Consumes: A Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment." By Edward Fudge. Bit this book is $28.95...so I may have to wait to get that one later..but if anyone can get a book review on their opoinion on it in the mean time that would be great:)

I think this is GREAT! And I would encourage more like this!

"I've never been to a CS church, so I have no idea what that is like." But just listening to others..I am learning alot. "I can relate to the JWs, though, because for a brief time I flirted with the idea of joining them and I went to several meetings at the local Kingdom Hall. I will say that the security they were promoting was very compelling and I can really see why it would be difficult to leave that society once one has been fully integrated into it." Lots of times of Fundamentalist that are Protestant like Southern Baptists are ignorant understanding this about JW's. They fail to understand why seekers would be appealed to JW instead of their Evangelical Protestant church. I explain this one my Progressive XJW site. The reason JW's appeals to many much more so than say Southern Baptists or Calvary Chapel..is that unlike these '2' Fundamental Protestant churches...JW's gives the 'idea' that they are very earth-friendly and animal friendly. This contrast greatly to the "Rapture' belief of Protestant Fundamentalism where they teach the earth will literally be burned up. A brief look at JW tracts will show a very positive appealing picture of humanity dwelling in unity with the earth and animalkind. This IS what appealed to me when I was raised in it. The problem is..that like Fundamental Protestant's exclusive ideas of how to get into heaven...jW's also hold a very exclusive view on how one can live forever in paradise conditions on earth..and their also lies a very contridictive message as regards to animals in the paradise Kingdom. one momemet they are saying that humanity will enjoy animals forever in paradise..then the next they, like their Fundamental Protestnat cousions, are saying only man is made in God's image and therefore ONLY humans will live forever and that animals will continue to die. I reject this most strongly..for many reasons. First I think they should consider Acts 3:11 that tells that "Jesus comes in the RESTORATIOn of 'ALL" things..." and that it does NOT just say humans only. Secondly, people love their pets, animals and if they died in paradise then this means people WOULD experience pain and suffering and sarow in paradise which goes against the Bible's promise in revelation of "No more, pain, suffering, or dieing anymore...for the former things have past away.-" Or if people did not expereince sadness at their pets death..then this would mean that had no love for animals and this too would contridict the Bible. Still, '2' positive things with JW's...(1) The reject the idea that hell is an eternal place of fire reserved for the evil, enbracing conditionalism instead. But they still retain the exclusive salvation theiry that all fundamentalist hold to. (2) The rejct the "Left Behind" earth being burned up belief of the Fundamental Protestants. Here's a good tip...even though the Roman Catholic Church and JW's are fundamentalist, still both rejct the rapture threat and hellfire..so you CAN often use their resources on such topics to support Progressive Christian thought/view points.

Maybe leave them at the coffee shops then?