BeachOfEden

"Well of course I'm not an ex-JW (I think as an ex-CS I prob. share some of your concerns and not others and of course have a whole set of my own)." Yes, I believe in mnan cases here CS as well as SDA could well relate to many of this, and perhaps i could mention this in there. "I thought that Fundamentalist were the first to really use the Seeker Sensitive type approach with contemporary music. (In fact I think "Seeker Sensitive" churches are exclusively fundamentalist, though I might be wrong?)." What I would like to examine is that I believe using the "Seeker-Senstive" concept is a good idea...'if'....it not use as a tool to mass fear tactics or hidden bigotries. In other words...that i see no problem is making grape flavored medicine unless the grape flavor is meant to mask the fact that there is poision underneath. "I think some more liberal churches have their own contemporary programs, if they are large enough (the UMC down the street has quite a large one). OTOH, smaller churches since they can't have both, will tend to keep the old." I attended a UMC for Easter and I was impressed because it was both contemporary and Progressive..though indeed small..30 people I think..but they did a great contemporary version of the old hymn "How Great Thou Art." "After all they do have older members who have been active for years. I go to a UCC which is pretty liberal/progress. We do not have a comtemporary worship, however, elements of more contemporary things are brought in." The Progressive churches like UMC and Presbyterian have been very slow to this..and thus why there groups are small..but hopefully will grow over time. "Well I don't know about this personally, but this did come up in the new members class. Apparently some ex-Catholics can not get over the idea that the bread and wine (or grape juice in our case) are literally the blood and body of Jesus. I'm sure if they would be able to accommodate to the more Protestant type sentiment they would be able to participate but we know that for many people conversion to a different belief system doesn't come in one big jump. I don't know that that explains everybody, perhaps not JWs." This is very good that you explain this FACT about Catholics so that those who have not been raised Catholics would understand. Also I talked to someone who said another reason as an X-Catholics feel uncomfortable about communion is because Catholics make such a big deal about only serving communion to worthy Catholics..that once a person does not want to be catholic anymore than everytime they think of communion they think of embracing the Catholic church and it's views which they do not want to do. In JW the belief is that each person chooses in their heart which type of after life he or she best desires and whether they desire a non-organic/supernatural relm or an earthly organic paradise. They make a big deal about if you don;t know what you are doing then you might be saying you wish to spend enternity in the version of paradise that is non-earthly..and to me I always picture this is a version of paradise devoid of organic matter and animals which i loved. Thus both JW's and Catholic warn so much about not taking communion if you don;t understand it..that a person fears taking it..because they are confused about what these symbols mean and it's meaning to their after life beliefs. Because of this confussion I think many Progressive XJWS and Progressive X-Catholics perfer to focus on the meaning of Christ's ransom and resurrection..then to actually particpate in the taking of the actual symbols. "Funny thing, but CS even though it was founded by a woman has rampant sexism." You know it is precisely the same thing in Seventh-Day Adventists. The founder was a woman and yet SDAs forbid women from beings elders. JW's brag that it is mostly women who do all the door-to-door work or making converts and they let them do sketches on the stage but they forbid them for being elders as well. "Men are almost always "first readers" (the closest there is to any clergy), while women are almost always "second readers". I understand that until fairly lately all major positions were typically occuppied by men. I think all this just mirrors society in general. (Of course it is institutionalized in many Fundamentalists and Catholic churches where women do not hold places due to supposed Biblical injunctions. Or say the fact that Jesus happened to be male.)" And the same in catholic..women can serve as nuns but only men can be priests or bishops. >ssue #8 The Issue of Homosexuality. The Problems of Conservative Faith Groups Trying To Marry The Opposite Sex. The AIDS Crises. "J. Wallis made the case that homosexual marriage is kind of a scapegoat for all that is wrong with the family. 50% divorce rate, blame it on gays; single parent households, high teen pregnancy rate-- it's all gays!" That IS SO true! "I also think that despite what they say some of them do show rampant homophobia. I mean those that are obsessed with it and mention it over and over like some type of mantra." I think it's because the straight white old men that run these religions don;t wan't people examining their own sex lives or how they treat their wives. "Of course AIDS isn't much of a homosexual crisis any more. The largest spread of AIDS is in Sub-Saharan Africa. But to the extent it IS a crisis, I think some Right wingers see it as punishment. I don't know what it is in Africa then." And all of this can be examined. I have two gay guy friends maybe they could offer their insights on this.

Off and on since the end of January I have been writting out an outline on my review on the book, "Ten Wrong Things i Learned From A Conservative Church." I have written this from the view of a Progressive Christian XJW. The results seem to be that this project is turning out to be HUGE. Infact, it's ended up like I am writting my own book in response to the author's. It's going to take me a long time. But here's the outline that i have created so far.... Ten Wrong Things Reviewed By a Progressive XJW By BeachOfEden CONTENTS Introduction Issue #1 The 'Difference' Between Inspired Orginal Bible Manuscripts vs. All Modern Day Bibles and 'Claiming' That They Are 'Inerrant.' Issue #2 Examing Liberals Fear of the Ransom Belief &The Reasons Behind It. Issues #3, and #4 The Teaching That Jesus Is Thee Highway To Salvation & The Conservative Church [JW's 'Organization'] Own Thee Only OffRamp That Leads To It. Issue #5A Conservative Christians (Fundamental Protestants, Non-Liberal Catholics & The JW 'Organization) Issue Against The Use of Contemporary Sounding Worhsip Music During Religious Services, & Against The "Seeker-Sensitive" Approuch, & Basic Phobia Of Too Much Joy, Fun & Recreation. Issue #5B Understanding the Serious Problem of Alcohol Abuse Amoung JW's & The Need For A/A Issue #6 Understanding Progressive Christian XJWs & X-Catholics Fear of Participating in Communion. ( Explaining What The 10 Wrong Things Author Does Not Understand About XJWs & XCatholics Uncertanity About Communion Issue#7 The Problem of Contridictive Sexism In Fundamental Protestantism, Non-Liberal Catholicsm & Jehovah's Witnesses. Issue #8 The Issue of Homosexuality. The Problems of Conservative Faith Groups Trying To Marry The Opposite Sex. The AIDS Crises. Issue# 9 The 10 Things Author Embraces The Resurrection Of Christ as Literal... But Dismisses All Other Mircles in the Bible as Mere 'Myths'. Why? Issue #10 Conservative Judeo-Christian Faith Groups Always Preach About Freedom Through Christ...Yet They Teach Inslavement Of Morbid Fear Of God. When Hellfire, Getting "Left Behind," or Armageddon Are Used Fear Tactics Tools For Minipulation & Spiritual Abuse

Hi everyone, Good to back here. Had my sister and her kids come down and visit from Portland,OR. Had fun...then helping my elderly mom with apoitments..but yeah..as Progressive Christians obviously we realize that attending a certain church building that proclaims itself "Orthodox" or "The True Religion" does NOT make it so. We don;t view them as evil or damned...because that is the complete opposite of what "Progressive" faith is about..but because the fundamental faiths DO..at best it is annoying and trying to our patience at times. And when we as progressives, liberal as even moderate Christians DO agree to attend our fundamental family's church services at this time of year..it basically comes down to oppeasing our fundamental perents, and assuring them they we ARE "saved" and "right with God." WE ourselves have no worry of this..but then again WE as Progressives are not attending the type of churches that are constantly telling us to bring our family and friends to our church to verify the athenticness of their reltionship with God and to verify their salvation. Like with this vast majority of Progressive Christians...I too found myself agreeing to attend my mother's very fundamental JW church..Kingdom Hall's Memorial of Christ's Death..so that my mom could feel assured that her daughter aka me, and her son aka my brother were indeed saved from Armageddon's hit list...That's either "hit" with an "H" or you could also add a "S" infront of this and either way it means the same. If anything, I proved to my JW peers that I had no become a drug addict or married a HellsAngel since my departure. The speaker was boring..which 9 time of 10 they always are at JW religious services, and thus the elder's speaking style reminds me much of Ben Stein's Ferries Builler's Day Off...."Bullier, Bullier...?....Fry?...Fry..." It was challenging to see everyone acted so fake and extra holy and perhaps equally so to observed the reality of how sexist they really are. You know, only men can be elders, so naturally, only they can say prayers there and are allowed to pass the bread and wine around to the crowd. But yeah, like someone said, I prey that God will open their eyes and soften their hearts to become more progressive in their thinking..and when I say they what i really mean is whoever might not be such a hardas# fundamentalist....even if just one person..that would be a great start.

Body: Whatever Judeo or Judeo-Christian themed faith background you may belong to...I wish you a happy Holy Week. There is a vast majority of us for who this Holy Week will prove to be a real challenge. What i am talking about is when your faith is a bit more on the moderate to liberal side, while maybe your mom's dad's or maybe certain aunt or uncle's or siblings' version of faith is a bit more on the far right. If this discription speaks to you..then this likely means all the way from Passover, Ash Wendsday, The memorial of Christ's Death Thursday, Good Friday to Resurrection Sunday....you will deal with overzealous religious family members convience that you are not truely saved or 100% right with God. This means that dispite that fact that you HAVE assured them that you HAVE a relationship with God/accepted Jesus as Savior...they may not believe that you got it right or that you path to this may be too liberal to be "orthodox" or that maybe you don;t have "The right Jesus." And this basically will most likely boil down to them insisting that you acompany THEM to to 'Their' house of worship, so that you may 'truley' get saved and thus avoid being mislead by so-called, 'false liberal religions', or Babylon The Great, and therefore assure that you avoid: (A) Fundamental Protestant Hellfire ( The Catholic Purgatory © Getting "Left Behind" during the Evangelical Protestant's 'Rapture' (D) The Jehovah's Witnesses Armageddon or... (E) All of the above So, for all you who were roped into attending a religious service this week that hopes to redeem you liberal or moderate soul...just letting you know....i feel for you, man.

"I think we agree then... I suppose what the underlying issue may be is that I see the potential for big problems, but don't at all relate this to any sort of biblical prophecy, whereas some do. " "I see it as a direct result of the way humankind has treated the earth-- and I believe that the way some folks interpret scripture can significantly add to the problem, particularly if the popular belief is that none of what we do matters because God is going to restore the earth for his faithful once it's been plundered beyond recognition." I partly agree. However, with the far right Fundamental Protestants I think it's even worse. Instead of beleiving the earth is going to be restored...they seem to feel that Jesus is gonna come back in a rage and destroy it all with fire and 'rapture' the elite (them) to that blissful vountry club in the sky golf course.

Basically, I think one can believe in millennialism both spiritually,ecologically,ect withOUT it having to mean a physical end to this planet. One can believe in an end to an age withOUT believing in a literal end to this planet. I neither agree with the fundamental Protestant view on the end of this planet nor the scientific destruction of earth. It's kinda how the New Agers and many Native tribes teach of earth cycles. We are presently living in a very negative age both spiritually ecologically and it may indeed get far worse..but it will get better then afterwards. There will be an end to this negative age, followed by a better one to come where people will become enlightened both ecologically, socially and spiritually.

"With the "Savior" thing, a person could explore the different atonement theories maybe. I don't think anybody mentioned that yet?" Someone mentioned the Fundamental vision of Christ as Savior being like a waiter at Denny's. My vision of Jesus as Savior is like a gurdian. Any other positive ideas on Jesus as Savior?

"BeachOfEden, I'm not enamored with the word "Evangelical." Some days I don't even want the Christian label either since that comes with so much baggage. But I've noticed that I connect with the Evangelical's sense of mission. The whole mission concept is being revamped by emergent evangelicals, so it is different than what many are used to. " I agree with the statement that I AM impressed with Evangelicals commitement to "Become all things to all sorts of people so that we may gain some." What I mean by this is..for example last summer I was taking my usual afternoon walk on our city's beach boardwalk when I saw a Christian Surfer's stand set up. They were giving away free Bibles. It was hosted by an Evangelical Free church in Simi Valley. I respected the fact that they were not affraid to be out there and to tell you the truth the thing that annoys me is the sad FACT that you NEVER see a liberal or Progressive church do a thing like this..that is reach out to the PUBLIC in so a contemporary way and this fact is very expesperating to me. The FACT that I NEVER see a Presbyterian or United Methodist church that was Progressive in nature EVER doing a Christian Surfer's outreach like this at the beach,ect. And THIS IS THE REASON WHY...the majority of the under 40 crowd FLOCKS to the Evangelical/Fundamental churches instead. Because THEY (NOT US..The progressives) ARE THEE ONES who ARE trying to "BECOME ALL THINGS TO ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE.-" Some might question, however, yes, but WHAT IS behind the Evangelical's churches zeal in "Becoming ALL THINGS to ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE.-"??? Love? agape? Or..is it FEAR? Fear of Hell? Fear of End Times coming to get everyone who does NOT concure with them? This IS a VERY GOOD question. And is the FACT that we Progressives don;t have or teach fear threats THEE REASON WHY WE do NOT have ANY ZEAL to "Become all things to all sorts of people so that we may gain some?" If this IS WHY The Evangelicals DO work and thus DO become all things to all sorts of people...and if this IS THE REASON WHY Progressives do NOT have any zeal and thus do NOT "Become all things to all sorts of people..so that we may gain some...-" Then this is a SAD fact both BOTH the popluar Evangelical churches and the Progressives. No, I still don;t relate to the appeal of the title or term "Evangelical" and wanting to add it to my vocabulary. But I DO understand the Evangelical churches appeal and zeal in "Becoming all things to all sorts of people so that we may gain some.-" I like their passion to be contemporary and thus do public reach outs like Christian Surfers..and I WISH progressive churches like Presbyterian and United Methodists WOULD do things like this. Do I question the Evangelicals source of ZEAL? Yes. Do question that fear tacticts may inspire such zeal? Yes. But my question is: Can such passion and zeal for reaching out to the public with the Gospel in such a contemporary way be done by Christians...especially Progressive ones withOUT morbid fear as the source of fire behind such passion/efforts? I HOPE the answer is YES!

I am kinda baffled at why SO many people..even those in Liberal camps find the term "Evangelical" SO appealing. What is it about this word that captures So much appeal for such a majority? The very word Christian is good enough for me and the added term "Evangelical" holds no particular bonus or pluss for me.

This is GREAT! Note that all the churches that signed this agreement to not harm the earth ARE already churches that Progressive Christians embrace: United Methodists, Presbyterians. Noticed that the big "Left Behind" compain churches and non-Progressive churches such as Southern Baptists and Assembly of God did NOT sign this? I will add this thread to my web pages' recommended links;)

Yeah, I don;t think there are 'wishy-washy'..but these vauge statements you quoted do NOTHING to tell us where they stand on social justice issues. I can understand that they wish to choose their words carefully but they should not be so affraid of the right as to kiss there "BLEEP."

Des: "I wouldn't have used the word "Pharisee"..." Sorry..but I did NOT tag any precise denomination. So yeah, if that person incerted "Catholic" in here, then that was his or her doing and NOT mine. I did not name any precise faith group by name. "And the Catholic church unlike other more conservative traditions (not all Catholics are conservative either) has a very long hx of social justice." VERY,VERY GOOD point. There IS an actual LIBERAL CATHOLIC CHURCH..though granted it is NOT reconiged as lagit by the Roman catholic Church..but then again are ANY of us Progressive or Liberal Christians considered lagit by ANY on the right? It is lucky for Catholics that they DO have this liberal option to their faith. many of us how have come from other fundamental faith group backgrounds don;t have such alternatives offered to our faith group backgrounds. "Many of us here have personal experiences with fundamentalists in our families that have not been so pleasant. I think if you read my posts you will see this is definitely the case for me. Many of us have been harangued by fundamentalists who bother us with their attempts to save us, even if we state we aren't interested or are "already saved". I'm sorry that it is hard to not take these comments of Beach's personally, but I doubt they were directed towards you anyway." Yeah, like I said 'I' do NOT know You, Darb, and I did not even know WHAT faith group background you belong )ed) to. But yeah, Des is right. There are a VAST variety of ex-conservatives here. I HAVE heard from at least '3' Catholics here in the past, though I don;t remember their names, but we also have other ex-fundamentalist...such as Ex-Southern Baptists, Ex-LDS, Ex-Christian Science and Ex-JW,ect.

You are replying to my post as 'if' I wrote it TO YOU and yet 'I' don;t even know YOU are WHO YOU ARE. What I am guessing is that you consider yourself proudly on "The right" and thus proudly embrace the term or concpet of being conservative and/or Fundamental in nature? Beyound this? I don;t know what it is in this document that you have a complaint against. Is it the gay issue? Is it women's rights?

"I'm not sure I believe Jesus to be "God", but perhaps something like the most complete and perfect God in humanity that has been." I don;t believe that Jesus was nor is God either. Rather than believing that Jesus was the incarnation of God, I say I believe that Jesus was and is the highest reflection of God's personality. "I also believe that Jesus is Savior for all, even who don't know his name or believe-- but only to the extent that they follow the greatest commandment: Love their neighbor as themselves and Love God with all their hearts and minds (even if they were to use another name for God or divide God up into multiple god aspects)." Good point I would also agree. The Golden Rule MUST come first even above our own doctrinal views. "Good works accompany faith. If one’s faith is real & authentic, then one can’t help but respond by engaging in service to persons and a world in need (not that doing good works is required for salvation, but rather, if one is saved, good works are a natural "fruit"). Jesus modeled and lived-out a truly liberating way of life – the "Way of the Cross" - the way of humble, sacrificial self-giving and nonviolent direct action. By living such a life, Jesus proved that it is in fact possible for other humans to live this way as well. After His execution, many of His followers had profound and moving experiences of the "Risen Christ" (seeing Jesus in the breaking of bread shared with strangers; in the midst of persons gathered in His name, etc.) in their lives giving them the sense that Jesus truly is Lord and that He and His mission Live on!" I really like that BR, about the faith and works. I think I will try and reremeber that quote. Faith should motivate helping one another 'naturally', like you said and NOT that people be motivated by the sermons of "An Angry God." In other words, faith should not be motivated by morbid fear tactict teachings..hellfire threats or end of the world.

Derby asked How many Progressive Christians believe/view Jesus as Savior. So I will start by replyinng that I view Jesus as everyone's Savior, whether they know him by name or not. How do you view Jesus? Savior? Prophet? Other?

I am not sure either. Let me post your question on a whole new thread and we will see how the majority responds. It will be called, "Jesus As Savior & Progressive Christians." If I can get this whole title to fit.

And I have also placed this same concept on MySpace... Hey all Liberal and Progressive Christians, I have just created a new myspace group "Moderate Christianity." it's for individuals of all backgrounds who may agree with the equality/social justice views voiced by Liberals and Progressive Christians..but who may have hestitated to try and indentify with such groups for fear that they'd have to reduce their beliefs in Jesus as Savior to simply a nice guy or do not view the Bible or mircles as mere positive man-made 'myths.' If this speaks to you or any or your friends, then join the group! Moderate Christianity Forum On MySpace

I just created the 7 Points of Moderate Christianity Forum! All welcome to post there under Genereal Discussions! Moderate Christians Forum

Here, I wrote out 8 points I 'think' match the views of basic Moderate christianity...tell me what you think, and if you think anything should be changed or re-worded, please share! thanks! BeachofEden~ The 8 Points Of Moderate Christianity By calling ourselves moderate, we mean that we are Christians who: 1. Feel Jesus is Savior for the world, but do not judge those outside this relm as eternally lost; nor that there is no possible fair second chance. We reserve and preserve the belief that God is more generous in grace rather than less. We use the example of the repentive thief for this reasoning. 2. Recognize the faithfulness of other people who may belong to other faiths, and view such as alternative faiths rather than calling them 'cults.' 3. Inviting : Moderate Christians and questioning skeptics, Protestants and non females and males, those of all races and cultures, and those of all classes and abilities. 4. Believe that men and women who are attracted to the same sex, deserve the basic human rights as those attracted to the opposite sex have... And we put this human right above any individual views or questions regarding their sexual practices in their own personal lives... 5. Think that the way we treat one another and other people surpasses doctrinal issues; (surpassing trinity verses unity debates or the nature of eternal life through God's Kingdom.) 6. Believes hell means SHEOL=grave and seperation from God and NOT a literal eternal place of fire torment 7.See ourselves as a Christian; balance between complete non-literal 100% mythicalism on the left and rigid pharisee-like fundamentalism without social justice on the right.

About the "Seeker-Senstive"/ "Contemporary"/"Culturally Relevent" thing. I AM ALL For casual dress AND 100% for contemporary sounding music. Coming from a fundamental JW background where we felt forced to dress formal like Mormons and had to endure horrid 1800's sounding hymns called "Kingdom Melodies" I don;t ever want to be apart of a faith group again the I feel tries to force stuffy formal dress codes and downbeat death hymns again! However, i ONLY like the contemporary "Seeker-Sensitve' approuch...'IF'...'IF" it is NOT used to HIDE exclusive beliefs or to simply mask or candy-coat intolerance and fear-tatcicts underneath...and UNforuantly, Des is very right the more often than NOT it IS usually the most fundamental modern churches that use these methodists for just that purpose= to try and distract the new comer from the distastful "members-only" slavation theory aka "Left Beind" and hellfire threats and maybe a sexist view of women. I mean I know of ONE contemporary non-denominational church in my city that IS Evangelical Light and they do NOT roll on the floor nor harp on hell and do not act sexist..but this is ONE church out of the whole city.

Think of SoJos as being a mostly "Political" rather than just theological discussion.

What is really odd to me is that fact that George Bush Jr. was raised in the United Methodist Church and NOT the Southern Baptists, of which he SO acts like. I saw this program like a month of 2 on PBS called "The Jesus Factor," in which the program explains that though Bush was raised United Methodists...in his college years he was invited to join a so-called "Non-denominational" Men Christian group. Yet, by large those who ran and supported the men's group were Southern Baptists. This is another reason to very LEARY of these so-called "non-denominational" men's groups and Christian Campus clubs. Though they claim to be non-denom..they are almost always ran by Southern Baptists or Calvary Chapel and there big goal is to sway mainstream Christians into embracing their radical fundamental far right mentality= hellfire threats, Rapture hysterics+ their political views that tie in with all this, their sexism and other bigotries. There was this article once about 10 years ago in either Time mag or NewsWeek about another so-called non-denom campus ministry called YOUNGLIFE.. It was very eye-opening. In the article perents who were of non-far right moderate Protestant churches like Methodists and Presbyterians let their kids join the YOUNGLIFE campus clubs. They said they thought nothing of it, figuring that it was Christian and non-denom so it never crossed their minds to question it source of connections. Later on some perents began noticing a selfrighteous additude in their children, as their kids would come home and question their own perents salvation and telling their perents that they feared of them or their friends "Not really being saved", and getting "Left Behind" during the rapture. The problem is...many, if not most people are ignorant of their own faiths, they 'assume' that all churches, as long as they are Protestant are the same. The far right radical prey upon this igornace and used it to their advanatge. They KNOW that their Southern baptist type churches are NOTHING like the mainstream churches but they play dumb in order to trick mainstreamers into being brainwashed into their radical "memebers-ONLY" salvation theory. This is obviosuly what happened to persident Bush...How much more scary can you get than that?

That term "Theocratic order" was/IS VERY popular with the JW organization is the key to their controll over their members and keeping them from questioning their leadership.

There are '4' theological terms or phrases that I am VERY LEARY of because they suggest "exclusiveness"..and they are as feollows: (1) Orthodox ( means usually we are right and everyone else is wronng) (2) Traditional ( meaning WE are the orginal unsullied version of...-...and the rest of you are some weird unorthodox version) (3) "The Truth" (means we have found it and own the copy rights to it..and everyone else is in spiritual darkness. (4) theocratic...which is suppose to me "God Ruled" but really means fundamental ruled by old white men.

Well, the idea is that there is NO place, that we know of that is pacifically created for "Moderate Christians", and so i was sugessting someone could create one. Many individuals I have talked with on Beliefnet that come from Luthern, Methodists, and Presbyterian backgrounds have voiced that they DO like the term "Moderate Christianity: and that is sounds appealing to them..but that they are uncertain where others like this are and where they gathered. Such a site should be a safe haven..free from conservatives who might intimidate them and attack them. First, let's constrate on them leaning towards Moderate Christianity...If they have not even come this far in their thinking..then those who are not even "moderate" in their thinking should remian in their own conservative relms.