BeachOfEden

This is my bio story...feel free to edit it down anyway you like... BeachOfEden's story The earliest memories I have of JW teachings are being four years old and loving to hear my mom read The Great Teacher book to me. I loved hearing about the stories of Jesus and his kindness towards people and I loved hearing about the hope of our earth being restored back to its original Eden-like glory forever. I remember that up until about age ten we had this unusually kind, fun and unorthodox elder, brother Homes. Brother Homes was very unorthodox because it was like the early/mid 70's and he'd always pick up hippies hitch-hiking beside the freeway. He would share his beliefs with them about the Bible, but also he'd make friends with them first and invite them to dinner and to stay in his home if they had no home. Brother Homes made the meetings creative and interesting by showing us slide shows of the trips he takes to far away lands like Africa. And also he'd devote 20 minute segments to every single meeting toward children and then young adults by having all the kids 10 and under join him on stage and share with the congregation their own thoughts on different Bible stories. And then they'd all sing songs and he'd sometimes have the musically talented young adults come up on stage and play guitars. These were very rare and enjoyable times. <P> These creative days would soon come to an end. In 1975 individuals in the JW organization began voicing their predictions of the end of this present system of things. This date setting situation of the year 1975 would so embarrass the leaders of JW's that this led the Watchtower Society to lay out new restrictions to try and curve individual expressed opinions. By 1980 some drastic changes had occurred and these changes would NOT be for the better. Brother Homes' creative and non-dogmatic unorthodox ways won the hearts of children, young adults and moms alike, much to the annoyance of the old-school, extreamist elders and when the leaders of the Watchtower Society requested that strict measures be taken to curve these individual expressions of creativity, the extreamist elders were only ever so eager to comply by using this as a excuse to justify the demand for brother Homes to stop with all these creative methods in the congregation. This meant so long to slide shows, children's parts, young adult parts and our annual beloved summer kids' parties and "hello" to boring talks and repetitive Armageddon warning talks as a means to keep the congregation in line and to scare them into maintaining meeting attendance. Meetings themes were based on shame, "tisk-tisking," and scare tactics such as asking from the pulpit, "Are you making the wisest use of your free time?" "Do you spend your summer vacations selfishly on pleasures such as camping, or will you choose wisely to devote your time to spreading the kingdom message?" "Don't you want to be in paradise?" And, "You know, you never know when Armageddon might come and what if you get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time? When Armageddon comes, where will you be found? In the safe protection of Jehovah's house and doing his will or out at some dance club? Remember, time is short!" <P> Thus, I grew tired of this constant threatening and shaming ones into serving the congregation as a means of verifying one's love for Jehovah, rather than inspiring talks reminding everyone about Jehovah's grace and love for humanity and the joyful hope of the restored earth. By age 12 I really dreaded having to attend meetings, like I was being dragged off to the doctors three times a week to get a shot or having to endure a math test. Yet, when I was 17 a very unusual thing happened. I went to the annual Lord's Evening Meal memorial and the speaker there actually gave a inspiring and non-Ben Stein-sound-a-like talk. The talk was not about the threat of Armageddon but rather on how much Jehovah God loved humanity that he sent his only begotten Son and how Jesus so loved humanity that he willingly volunteered. <P> That talked reached me in a way that I had never before been reached. Little did I know that it would be the only talk that I'd hear like that at a JW meeting again. I did not walk up afterwards and ask to become a pioneer or to announce to move to "where the need was greater", even ask to join the Ministry School. I did, however, decide to seek out somebody to ask to study with me. I decided that if I sought out someone to study with me that the person should be fairly young and fairly new in the truth, figuring that by so choosing I'd avoid the chances of getting an old school narrow-minded extreamist. I chose this kind faced, 30-something blond-haired women that we shall call Lisa. Lisa seemed very unsure of her qualifications of being good enough to instruct me. I felt this was a good sign for it showed that she would not be haughty or holier-than-thou. Despite her fear, she finally agreed to study the Bible with me. Lisa shared my interests of being in nature and love of horticulture. I also came to learn that Lisa had lived in her teens as a hippie in a commune. We would study the Bible for a half an hour out in her backyard garden. Then we'd make some tea and talk about our interests in gardening. It seemed my choice was perfect. A very emotional and zealous women that we shall call Judy took notice of Lisa. She concluded that Lisa needed some of what she called, "spiritual encouragement". This spiritual encouragement meant informing Lisa that she felt that she needed "do more spiritually". <P> I was informed that I should only make friends with people in the congregation. Problem: There were NO people in the congregation my age. I expressed my desire and need to meet some people my age, and to this, Judy and Lisa told me that my desire for friends was not as important as spreading the kingdom message. So for 4 years I remained alone with no friends my age. My so-called social life consisted of going over to Lisa's house, usually after the book study, slipping on some herb tea while Listening to Lisa's pioneer friends try and out-shine one another with how many hours they got in field service that week. Lisa's friends seemed very impressed with themselves and how many hours they could devote to field service. I myself, however could not understand how this was generating all this zeal. I could and DID understand that it was inspiring to share your Bible views with others and exchange faith and hope in a natural setting. But at age 17 being instructed to dress like a lawyer, like I was attending a court hearing, and devoting all my time trying to convenience others that to be saved one must submit to the Watchtower Society's rules (a.k.a. "suggestions") did NOT seem inspire or be helpful to others in the community or to me. <P> I did not feel right about telling others they should switch their whole lives around to fit WTS's rules to get blessed by Jehovah and be saved, when I was not even sure myself if I believed this; or that one must even convert to the WT's rules to be saved. Of course I wanted to share the good news of Jehovah and the new earth hope. It was just that I was not convinced that spending your whole life sitting in a chair and submitting to the WTS's non-optional "suggestions" was the right way to go about inspiring others to do this. It seemed that the JW meetings were overloaded with the WT organization's "suggestions"... so much, that these WTS's opinions and suggestions being lectured actually smothered out the very essential important basic Bible truths of Jehovah God's and Jesus Christ's love for humanity and all life and the joy of the restored hope. The never-ending onslaught of Armageddon threats to keep the congregation attendance maintained were burdensome to me. I knew that Jehovah was not the slave driver in the sky that the organization made him sound to be. <P> Although I knew that Jah did not just expect human beings to just wonder around on the earth aimlessly with no hope for the future, still to me there was a HUGE difference between the simple concept of Jehovah being an orderly God vs. Jehovah 'needing' an earthly religious organization to mediate his beliefs and desires for humankind for I well knew that Matthew 23:10 and 1 Timothy 2:5 clearly taught that we had only ONE mediator and only ONE leader between Jehovah and humankind and that leader and mediator was Jah's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Thus by JW's actually teaching that Jehovah 'needs' an earthly human organization to mediate his affairs, they were actually pushing Jesus Christ out of his rightful position. <P> It really bothered my conscience to sit and hear JW brothers warn the congregation from the pulpit, "NEVER question those talking the lead among you or else be considered a 'complainer against the WORD'". To this I would think, "WHO'S Word"? The actually proven and backed words of Jehovah himself found in the actual Scriptures or the word of WTS? It seemed obvious to me that it was the former and that this actual statement of theirs' contradicted the very advice of the Bible found at Acts 17:11 which spoke of the Beroeans being open-minded and yet they "searched the Scriptures daily to see if [what Paul was telling them] was really so". <P> Besides, cult experts always warn that the number one warning sign to watch out for in a cult is the admonishing church members not to question their teachings or the authority behind them. Another deeply disturbing concept that they taught which bothered my conscience was their contradicting teachings and degradation of women in the name of God's Word. Like Promise Keepers, JW's constantly makes claims of "honoring women" and yet their talks, books and printed material proves the opposite teachings. The JW's Revelation-A Grand Climax At Hand! Page #48, paragraph #8 claims that the reason why JW men turn apostate is because their wives fail to allow their husbands the God-given right to rule over them and thus they also "insight court action against Jehovah's faithful servants"; and that when a woman challenge a man's right to rule over her, that then this is a "Jezebel influence". Paragraph #11 also claims that it is "LOVING for Christian overseers to FIRMLY RESTAIN ANY PROMOTION of EQUALITY or LIBERTY of RIGHTS for WOMEN as counseled by WATCHTOWER SOCIETY'S PUBLICATIONS." (Notice they did NOT say as counseled by the BIBLE!) <P> In the JW's Proclaimer's book page #221, paragraph #3 a women who is a devout reverer of Rutherford is quoted as blessing Rutherford and his issue of the Watchtower for helping promote her feelings of "relief to see the end of 'women's rights". Then she goes on to call women's rights as "local opinions and individual judgement that is opposite of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ and thus thereby a reproach on Jehovah's name". Then back to the Revelation book page #51, paragraph #14 speaks of JW elders being used by Jesus as "trusted stars to POLICE and SURPRESS WOMEN". Individuals of the congregation are threatened to not question stating, "After these elders have fully examined a matter and JUDGMENT has been rendered it is NOT for INDIVIDUALS to probe into the ways and wherefores of the action taken. All should humbly accept the elders disposal of the matter and continue to be supportive of these congregational stars". Also they call such faith groups as Seventh-Day Adventists and Christian Science "spiritually sullied" and "spiritually immoral" for simply having women teach from the pulpit. All of this is the complete opposite of Galatians 3:28, which says "that there is neither Greek nor Jew nor Male Nor Female but that ALL are one through Christ". See http:/www.cbeinternational.org for a moderate guild on how the Bible is NOT sexist. <P> Also disturbing is that NOT one single non-white face can be seen on the board of Governing Body (the leaders at the Watchtower Society; see JW's Proclaimer's book page #116 photo as proof). Then there are all the society's rules which they claim are simply "suggestions". Yet one learns real fast that if you choose not to obey these "suggestions" you find yourself excluded from social gatherings and labeled "spiritually weak", "worldly" and a "bad association". These non-Biblically backed Society's "suggestions" (a.k.a. rules) include: You must attend 5 meetings a week, unless sick. You are to devote at least 10 hours a month in the field service (going door-to-door preaching) to be considered "good association". <P> Marriage and/or becoming a pioneer and/or serving at Bethel are THEE "ONLY" worthy life choices/acceptable careers one should reach out for. You can not join ANY social clubs, YMCA, A/A or be on any school team. A "mature Christian" should not celebrate birthdays and although JW leaders admit that forbidding the celebration of birthdays can not be Biblically backed and thus a "personal matter that should be left up to the individual," ... nevertheless if you chose to celebrate birthdays or harvest fests, you'll be labeled "spiritually weak". Single adults, even those over 21, can not hang out together unless a chaperone is present. You must avoid ALL socializing with non-JW's, including school mates, work mates, neighbors and family members. Failure to meet any of these requirements ("suggestions") will result in being avoided by others in the congregations and thus you are considered "spiritually weak" or "worldly". <P> Finally I wondered: What did ANY of this have to do with my belief in having a personal relationship with Jehovah and his Son, Jesus Christ, or my belief in a unitarian view of God or my belief in the restoration of the earth? Yes, what DID all these non-Biblically backed WT Society "suggestions"/rules have to do with these basic essential Bible truths? This question to me was every bit as mysterious as Christendom's Trinity belief. My conscience bothered me over all this because, like all JW's, I knew I could not voice these questions for fear of being instantly labeled, "a complainer against the 'WORD'" and that thus once again the confusion would come into play of merging the basic Bible truth beliefs actually found in the Bible with the WT Society's non-optional "suggestions"/opinions and that both of these would be merged together to form "God's Word" and thus to question THEIR "suggestions" would equal questioning Jehovah's own Word. <P> I began to see Lisa change in her association with Judy and "the spiritually mature ones" from being a mellow, down-to-earth gardener and nature lover to one of THEM, which meant measuring everyone's spirituality by their performance of impressive good deeds as an indication of your worthiness to be an associate or not. Lisa became very displeased with me, viewing me as a failure to her, because I failed to produce these characteristics of outward good deeds as proof of my spirituality. Basically, I was a "theocratic embarrassment" to her, because not doing these things, I failed to make her look like a great spiritual teacher to her "spiritually mature" pioneer friends. <P> So one day Lisa decided that it was time to take the bull by the horns and announce that it was time to "move on to spiritual maturity" and to "progress to the deeper spiritual things". This basically meant to beyond the basic "spiritual milk" = Jesus life and ministry and on to the "spiritual mature food" = the mechanics and operations of how the Watchtower Society's corporation worked and was ran. I was not interested in learning about how the printing presses at WTS ran, nor examining graphs showing the increases of publisher hours. I said that I would prefer to study something about the actual Bible and this made her become offended and she said in her reply to my request that I had a "rebellious attitude". <P> Finally in 1991, I met two girls my age who moved here from up north. The one girl who was precisely my age was named Joan and I found by the time she arrived it was well announced that she had moved here to "pioneer" and this impressed all of the "spiritually mature ones" in the congregation. The other sister was five years older but looked younger and her name was Kate. Kate made no such dazzling announcements and really kept quiet and thus was basically unnoticed, despite her unpretentious ways and genuine kindness. Joan was had a bit of an outlandish hairdo and if it were not for her well advertised announcement of being a pioneer she most likely would have been called "worldly". Both Joan and Kate had a great sense of humor and thus I was inspired to reach out to them and make friends. Joan hit it off well with me and she, her sister and I began hanging out together. Lisa took careful note of this and saw it as an opportunity for her to let some theocratic zeal rub off on me and so she went out off her way to make friends with the new girls as well. <P> Lisa thought perhaps she could talk Joan into encouraging me into going out in service and hopefully join the Ministry school. Despite Joan's big talk of wanting to pioneer, she was very spirited, which was something I could relate to. Joan asked me to be her pioneer partner and I agreed to go along for the ride. For the first time in my life as a JW I had made a friend my own age. We shared the same sense of humor and we both liked walking and going to the beach. I would become her field service partner and in return she would be my walking and hiking partner and friend. At that time it seemed like a fair trade-off. Well now I was going out in service and yet still I made no signs or endeavors of wanting to try and become a pioneer or join the school and this was less than commendable in Lisa's eyes. And so Lisa voiced her "concerns" to Joan about my lack of "spiritual advancement" and so finally one day over at my house Joan asked me why I hesitated to join the Ministry school or show interest in doing more in the congregation. <P> I thought that Joan was a good and loyal friend and so I explained to her my confusion of not feeling or experiencing this spiritual zeal about going out in the field and that I felt no desire to want to be in the Ministry school. I told her what bothered me is that I had been taught all my life that JW's said that Jesus spoke of being able to identify his true followers by seeing "the love among them" and that I myself had never experienced this love first hand and so I had yet to verify this. Joan looked concerned for me and then she said that she would pray for me. Little did I know that would happened is that Joan told Lisa all this, to which Lisa interpreted that it all meant I was rebellious against the truth, and thus she became inflamed with indignation, which I was not informed of. Lisa stormed over to an elder's house and proceeded to tell him that I "had the attitude of an apostate". <P> I was not informed of any of this until my mother, unbeknownst of this, approached the very elder Lisa made these claims of me to and greeted him. The elder made an unfriendly and disgusted look and turned from her with disapproval. "What the hell's wrong with that brother?" my mother thought, and she approached him. He informed her of that which Lisa accused me of. Needless to say my mother was outraged and confused and she confronted me with this. So I went to the elder to find out what precisely Lisa had charged me with. The elder told me that Lisa had told him to tell me that she "could no longer study with me because I had the attitude of an apostate". Finally after an hour of explaining, I finally convinced the elder that this issue was based on a personality clash and not anything spiritual. He concluded that Lisa had jumped the gun and was in error and he requested that since her disagreement towards me was so profound that the best thing to do would be to simply thank her for all the time that she had spent in the past studying with me and to simply drop the whole situation with her. I agreed and did just this and after this I would never see nor talk to her again. Joan was annoyed to find herself caught between Lisa and I, and yet how could she not be since she was the one who informed Lisa of all this? Finally comparing me to Lisa, she sized us up and felt that Lisa was the "spiritually matured one" and that she must agree with her rather than me. <P> Joan's betrayal of me and her choice to take Lisa's side rather than mine p.o-ed her sister Kate. Kate expressed her feelings on this to her sister and that she felt that Joan was making a terrible mistake and so Joan concluded that her sister was thus every bit as "spiritually weak" as me. Being both shunned as "spiritually weak ones" Kate and I became best friends to each other. Not too longer after this Joan made another announcement that she wanted to move to Washington to "serve where the need was great" and in response to this she received the praise of the "spiritually mature ones" again. I came latter to learn that Joan's claim to have moved to our area had less to do with "serving where the need was great" and more to do with following a young inspiring pioneer brother whom she was attracted to. Lisa and Judy and all the "spiritually mature ones" praised her noble announcement of moving to "serve where the need was great" again. But this great need was in reality to follow the same brother that inspired her to move to our area in the first place. <P. After a year of failed attempts to win this brother over and impress him with her theocratic endeavors, she moved backed to her home town and gave up on being a JW all together. Infact, now she is soured on all religion. Her sister Kate remained in our area for awhile and together we sought to support one another and overcome our fear of admitting that we did not agree with the JW organization. Kate moved away back to her home town and, now since then, we have keep in touch through letters. Like the majority of all JW's, I struggled with my conscience over the issues of JW's non-biblically backed and non-optional "suggestions" (a.k.a. rules) smothering out their basic Bible beliefs: God's name, the new earth hope, unitarian view of God and the rejection of hellfire and the immortal soul concepts as being unbiblical to me. <P> Yet, the JW's always warned, "If you leave the JW Organization, where else shall you go? Where else shall you find such beliefs taught and promoted?" It seemed difficult, for as I looked around it did APPEAR that no other religions embraced such beliefs and thus like others, my fear was that if I disconnected myself from the association of the JW's, would I thus be disassociating myself with these essential basic true beliefs? The Internet proved to be a real blessing a saving grace. For it was here that, much to my utter surprise and gladness, I discovered what the JW's taught me all my life about ALL the Bible Students back in Russell's day converting to the Watchtower Society Organization and thus the denominational title "Jehovah Witnesses" long ago was NOT true; and that this fact was verified to me as the web site proved. Yes there WERE STILL MANY non-organizational Bible Students' Associations. I studied and researched ALL the Bible Students groups. <P> Though improved in the fact that BSA and FBS were FREE of organizational cult-like control, much to my disagreement I found that ALL but ONE association amongst the BSA's interpreted "the meek shall inherit the earth" actually meant "the meek-hearted, yet spiritually un-informed" and thus those who were good-hearted, but NOT dedicated to the Lord PRESENTLY. Also, all these Bible Student group were very fundamental in nature. This was unacceptable to me. After this, I researched the Progressive Christian churches. I have attended the Disciples of Christ Church, United Methodists, a contmporary interdenominational yet non-chrasimatic Protestant church, 2 Uniatarian Universalists churches. I also have studied Native American beliefs and find much of their concepts agreeable, especially the Hopi. <P> By the use of the web, I sought others out, who like myself, believe in these basic essentials and had separated these basic truths from revering the organization and its control over others' lives. I found the Center For Progressive Christianity 3 years ago and I am an online member. There, through many discussions, I have met follow Progressive minded Christians, like me, who overcame their former fundamental church faith group backgrounds withOUT throwing their belief in God or Christ out the window. I have met people there who also came from JW, but also Mormon, Christian Science, Fundamental Baptists groups, Assembly of God, and Fundamental Catholics. On TCPC site and it's forums you'll discover the shared belief is The Golden Rule rather than fighting over doctrinal issues like whether one is triniatian or unitarian and trying to judge someone as being unsaved or a cult or not based upon whether they embrace or reject such doctrinal specualtions. So, if you ever wondered if there was such a thing as a Progressive Christian Network...the answer is yes!

Cool! I didn't even know about that..but, yeah, Santa Barbara is So cool! I have been to many liberal/progressive innerfaith events there like at Earth Day and their Peace fests. Met many cool lib Epscopalains, Lib Catholics, Buddhists, Native American and there's this cool Greek orthodox minister there who's all into the environment. The Trinity Epscipoplain Chruch is there and was even featured on PBS as one of the few sucessful and popular liberal christian churches. I am SO looking forward to their Earth day event on the 23 of this month at the SB sunkens Gardens! Last year's SB Earth Day Fest. My nephew and I went and took this picture. We listened to a positive talk given by a chusmas native American elder.

What about one in Santa Barbara? The mayor of the city is gay and the whole city a liberal. And then maybe in Colorodo?

How do we go about requesting it?

What about the idea where everyone here could share their story of what fundamental faith background they claim from and how they came to indentify with TCPC? And if TCPC could add a section to their site where these stories could be placed..and maybe put them in the TCPC newsletter? This would show the diverse backgrounds of TCPC people. Whay do you think? Maybe it could be optional that individuals submitting their stories could also leave the website URLs or e-mail address.

I was just thinking that! Here's my idea. What about a conference held at either Hollywood or Santa Barbara? Both of these cities are very liberal. It could be a gathering of all Progressive Christians both Protestant, Catholic, XSC,XLDS, XJWs...as long as your Christianity is progressive you are welcomed...but no Fundamentalists nor fundamental Lites..strictly Progressive. Themes or topics could include: 1. contemporary Progressive Christians (Protestants and Catholics and all) That feel they are an indangered species/ a rare minority within their churches/congergations... or come from faith group backgrounds that have no Progressive contemporary alternatives....Progressive Contemporary Christians without a church home. 2. How to create, build and expand Progressive contemporary and culturally relavent communites in a fundamental and anti-contemporary city or community. Ideas: festivals, gatherings, forums, fundamental-FREE Christian coffee houses...and how to make sure they stay that way..withOUT far rightisms slipping in. 3. How do Progressive contemporary Christian communities compete with the the far right's contemporary "seeker-senstive" outreach programs? 4. effective education campains to educate the public in dealing with the extreme religious far right fundamentalists and the far left anti-theists. Clearifying MIsconceptions about what Progressive christianity actaualy IS and is NOT. 5. How Progressive Christianity can spread it's message without being invasive like the extreme right not completely apthelic like many well-to-do modertae mainstream churches...Between Apathy & Agressive. 6. Innerfaith meetings/gatherings with other Progressive religions...Progressive Buddhists, Hindus, Bahia,ect...where all religious Progressive can share,voice their challenges with dealing with experincing flack from their own religious communities.

Yeah, I think so..I mean even if we combined all the Liberal Catholics, Progressive UMCs, Prog Presbterians, XLDS, XJWs, XCS in each of our cities...it still would not be enough to equal one Evangelical contemporary service number..and as we have discussed the older Progressive Christians 60 and older...ovbiously are not interested in helping us with our contemporary Progressive ideas...so I say then let us get all the Lib Catholics, and Progressive UMCs, Presbterians, and so on and create contemporary Progressive non-denominational Christian coffee shops. Have folk rock artists, blues, Jazz, Reggae,ect play there and let Progressive or Liberal Catholics, Protestants, Progressive XJWS and XSC,ect give Progressive sermons and people could announce and post upcoming festivals and events. Question, how do we all go about gathering interest in starting these in each city? Any ideas? i heard that the Trinity Episcopalin church in Santa Barbara has one of these. Maybe we could ask them about it?

Perhaps, many of you, like me, have thought to yourselves, "Well, maybe it's like this where I live cause it's not a big enough city like Hollywood.-" But here's the thing though...I HAVE personally written to the most sucessful Progressive Christian churches IN hollywood..and even THEY told me that at most their Progressive contemporary service only draws 30 or 50 at the most..and these are cities bigger and what we think of as more young and cool than ours. So you figure whther Hollywood or where you or I live...each of these cities are likely only to have 3 Progressive churches and each of these '3' will only draw 15 to 50 people at the most....So if we times this by 3 that means at the most..you'd have about 150 people if you combine three different Progressive churches..like let's say UMC and Presbyterian,ect..and maybe 50 to 80 and the least. Since this, even in a combined effort of UMC and Presbyterian,ect....Here's what I suggest... what if....in every city the few contemporary Progressive individuals coming from Catholic, UMC, Presbyterian, whatever..all gettogether and have a contemporary Progressive coffee shop, where blues and folk music could be played and different Progressive christian speakers could stand up and share positive thoughts? So if not a church then how about a Progressive alternative cafe or coffee shop? Where Progressive contemporary Christians from all backgrounds could meet?

You know I can't figure it....I live in a beautiful beachy town that is like 1 hour from Santa Monica..but the Catholic churches here and most all the Protestant churches are fundamental. There IS, I hear a Liberal catholic church is Ojai (about 20 mintues from here). I think the Progressive Catholics, Liberal Episcopalains and Liberal Lutherns ought to get together and make their own Progressive contemporary churches. And then the Progressive UMC and Presbyterians ought to make progressive churches.

Back in the 50's and 60's the younger Evangelical Protestant pastors saw a changing culture and they could see as plain as day that the old Evangelicals were not a bit interested in changing their old dry services and organ music hymns for folk rock style music for the arising youth counter culture movement of the time. So these young spitied Evangelical pastors broke off of the old time Evangelical denominations and started their own. Well, maybe it's time that us Progressive Christians do the same. If they old Progressives don;t want to work with us to reach the contemporary culture with the Progressive Christian message..then maybe it's time we break off and start own non-denominational Progressive Christian churches independent from UMC,ect.

So basically what the problem is...is that...what we have each experinced is that we have visted the most moderate churches in our areas..which are Methodists or Preberterian or United church of Christ... We found that the over welming vast number, if not all, the people in these churches are of elderly age. They are Progressive in the fact that they don;t like the brimstone hellfire and "Left behind" Holy roller hype of the Fundamental Protestant churches...and they accept women's rights pretty well...the acceptance of gays is unbeknowst to them... But..when it comes to becoming culturally relavent to the younger generation, say Baby-Boomers, the X and Y Generations and X...they suddenly switch gears on us..and are NOT Progressive to THIS change. They CAN SEE and KNOW that the FACT that they have resisted change or at the very least have dragged their feet slowly to it..to the point..that all the 50's and younger crowd have LEFT THEm and turned to the far more fundamental yet contemporary churches instead. They KNOW and acknowelde this FACT and WHY they have no young..and that it is because of their resistance to change....But they apperantly don't care..Or not enough...to reach out to the youth culture.

You know, Des. that is a very good comparion. If you ever look at the artwork in Hare Krishna and compare it to the catholic artwork on candles they look very much the same....minus the spiritual beings having a blue shade to their skin

Can we place this thread back up? Cause this topic really is of interest to me.

Adding to the discussion about the Pope I thought I'd expnad this topic to include catholicsm as a whole, and the fact that the regular catholic church does not seems to be keen on the idea becomig n more Progressive, extending equality for women, changing the birth controll rule, priests allowed to marry..and also such issues as their dislike of becomign contemporary in their worship, dislike of contemporary music and their love of dark and morbid decor and atmosphear of their churches..and loving to focus on suffering....also what do you think of the whole Catholic idea of praying to saints instead of God? Any thoughts?

Yes, I agree..and I think this is one of THEE biggest problems with ANY faith group that is fundamental in nature..that is...they ALL claim to have found THEE 'ONLY" offramp leading to thee highway to Jesus and thus salvation..and each fundamental faith group claims to own all the rights to it....they have set up a toll both infront of this one offramp that THEY believe in THEE only WAY to God and Christ..and to sucessfully pass by this toll both and thus this offramp, that they 'claim'..in THEE 'ONLY' right one that takes you to God/salvation...the fee is you MUST agree with 'THEIR' take on the Bible and the nature of God....and if you don;t...they view you are eternally screwed...cutt off from God... If you find another offramp and discover that it takes you to God and is not jammed with the traffic of fundamentalists slowing down the freeway to spiritual understanding..they get jealous that you found away around the right winged traffic jam..and claim you road will lead you to a dead end.

Can you explain this quote, "Have we become more clever than God?"

Amen to your ideas and comments! Progressive Churches are in such a NEED where I live here in Ventura! The closest we have is '1' United Methodist church on Santa Clara Street. I went there on Easter and here's the thing. The contemporary praise music they had was pretty darn good!...But the Pastor is NOT good at speaking. Sorry..but it's true. That night I turned on the tv on our local channel and they was the very same serive on tv with the very same pastor giving the very same sermon. My mom, who is devote JW was watching this with me and she replied, "That pastor is not a very good speaker." And this is coming from a person who has to sit through VERY boring and very UNcontemporary services at the JW Kingdom hall! There was only like 30 people at this small contemporary service in the small chapel..and here's what I think.....United Methodist and Prebyterian are enough alike, when they are Progressive....that they should join together to do contemporary Progressive services..especially if they is not enough Progressive churches. Yes, contemporary Progressive Christian churches need to be advertised more! And this TCPC network needs to be advertised more! I say advertise an ad in the LA Times!

"But, the fundamentalist might protest, if slalation is at risk then is it not our duty to warn other's that their interpretations are wrong?" You see..both the fundamental Protestant, the fundamental JW, the Fundamental Catholic all are convinced that THEY HAVE the "orthodox" interpretation of the Bible and thus they believe that have accepted the REAL Jesus and the other guy's false has accpeted a FALSE Jesus and therefore is not really saved. In contast..Progressive Christians do NOT presume nor asume that THEY 'HAVE' discovered all the unsullied interpretations of the Bible and on doctrines...nor that one HAS to be be saved. They do NOT claim to understand this all now in this life. rather what they DO claim that we CAN ALL understand in this life, NOW is the Golden Rule. I mean, JW's Mormons and Fundamental Protestants can continue their heated debates on the trinity..but does fighting over the trinity has ANYTHING to do with if we treat all races and both sexes as we ourselves would like to be treated?

darby wrote: "I understand the possible family tension, but again, I'm not offended by others' beliefs. I have a subcontractor who is a JW, and we have had several intense conversations. We both completely believe the other has missed it. Yet we work well together, and I'm not offended, nor do I think he is. First, maybe neither you nor your devote JW co-worker is "offended" by your intense theolgy disagreement. But is it not true that both you and your JW co-worker FEAR for the other's salvation? Do YOU not think to yourself that you are concerned for your JW friend that his views on the trinity are wrong and because of this he may not be truely saved? And your JW firend FEARS the same for you except in reverse? "On a deeper note, don't even Progressive Christians think some individuals or some groups (perhaps fundies ) have missed it? The title of that book is Ten Wrong Things I learned in a Fundie Church, right? That would imply there is right beliefs and wrong beliefs, and that guy that wrote the book thinks he's got it right." The difference is while me and AR may may disagree with our fundamental JW family members...and indeed they may experate us...we do NOT 'FEAR' nor worry about their salvation and they would for US. so-called "Correct doctrines" is NOT what concerns on for we don;t believe that truely is such a thing in this life as unsullied interpretations because humanity IS IMperfect. What does concern us..is that fundamental faith groups are not treating women equally, that they may be acting emotionally unkind to gays, or that because of their end of the world interpretations..they may disregard preserving our earth's natural enviroment..and that is for starters the issues that we as progressive Christians have with Fundamentalists. We each of us as progressive Christians may hold our own views on whether we believe God is trinatarian in nature or not...we do not FEAR that is another claiming to be Christian holds the opposite view..that they may not be saved..where as I don;t if the same could be said of a JW or Evangelical Protestant debating this very same topic. Say one Progressive Christian came from Bapists background and is pro-trinity and another came from JW background but is non-trinity..whteherever their view on this in the past or the present..'if' BOTh are truely Progressive then they will not FEAR or WORRY about the other holding a different view. Can the same be said of your view, Derb towards your JW co-worker? And can the the same be said of your JW co-worker's view towards you?

One of the main themes of disagreement betweenProgressive Christians, such as myself verses Evangelical Protestants is the nature of hell. I embrace the view of hell called "conditionalism" or "ahilationailsm," as they sometimes call it. We have discussed this many times on this forum as well as the debate and challenge forum owned by this board..so if anyone cares to review our discussions on this topic of hell and why us Progressives embrace the conditionalist interpretation of hell verses the fundamentalist view of hell...they a free to to search the date base here by searching the key words "hell" or "conditionalism." Or if anyone here requests it, I can find the conditionalist articles on my file and copy and past them on here. But millennialism also is a part of this theme and whether one belives in a physical destruction of this earth by God or merely a cleaning of this society. The 3rd issue that plays into this topic is elticism, that is did Jesus die for 'ALL' or does he rasom only count for those who agree with a certain interpretation of the Bible? The 4th issue that ties in to all this is....FEAR of God..and is this FEAR a healthy respect of displeasing God? Or is it a unhealthy fear created by imperfect religious humans to try and minipulate people and try and scare people from questioning 'their' interpreations of the Bible?

des wrote: "Actually I haven't read this book "End of Faith" by Sam Harris. This is a very provocative (and provoking) book on religion and dangers therein. Anyway he is what I would describe (don't think he would) as a progressive Buddhist, not an athetist, but he is essentially saying that esp. theistic religion is the cause of much harm in the world and that reason and secularism are responsible for most of the good things that have taken place from public health measures, attempts to live peacefully with other groups, etc etc. I'm not sure that I agree with it all. For ex. he has pretty much said that you have to interpret the Bible literally (and he definitely does). Anyway, one thing he talks about is that moderates are too tolerant of what are essentially crazy ideas, due to a belief that everyone has the right to believe what they want. ( A right fundamentalists do not, by definition, accord to us, btw. for reasons we have discussed here.) He can't at all get around the concept of liberal/progressive as he was invited to speak at a group of Reform Jews and Congregationalists, the whole liberal/progressive thing was something he couldn't grasp at all, never thought of. HOWEVer, the point about tolerance is interesting. I think we are by belief system tolerant (I'm not saying we always ARE so tolerant), but his comment was that maybe this isn't so good. We live in a world with dangerous, fundamentalist ideologies that we can't really speak to as we believe they have the right to these views. Specifically he talked of Muslim fundamentalism and the "rapture beliefs" which he says do not support "sustainable life on this planet". (Why bother with conservation if you think the rapture will come in 50 years as something like 40% of the population believes?) No one says to them, basically "this is nuts". .." Well, what this writter does not point out is mnay times someone who feels that were burnt in a Judeo-Christian fundamental faith background..sometimes will join a Buddhist grouo or Humanist group or basically ANY belief group that is either non-theist or anti-theist in nature to simply get even with all of Judeo-Christianity, which they blaim as the cause to all their problems. And just as over confifent Born Agains will berate the person who embraces Dawin as a dumb ape,,,so too will the over confident Humanist berate ALL theist themed belief systems..even those that are liberal as being anti-intellecual Holyrollers. So in either case..it's a problem of extreme black and white thinking where both ends of the extremist scale can NOT realize or accept that there ARE moderate people in the middle. AletheiaRivers: "The one thought that popped into my head that I will share right now is that I'm NOT tolerant of beliefs that I consider to be dangerous to the person holding the belief or to other people or to the " Yeah, I guess I've have to agree with that. I mean it's not like I am going to march around a protest the opening of the next "Left behind" book signing...I am not gonna tell them what they should do..but I won;t say there beliefs are ok or not harmful. "For example: My mom is still a JW. I don't have issues with her preaching door to door or believing that 144,000 will go to heaven to rule with Jesus or her not celebrating what are essentially pagan holidays (Christmas, Easter, Etc). Pretty much the same here. My mom is also JW as is my older sister and I concure with AR, "I don't have issues with her preaching door to door or believing that 144,000 will go to heaven to rule with Jesus or her not celebrating what are essentially pagan holidays (Christmas, Easter, Etc)." AR also wrote: "However, I will call "CRAP!" when she brings up Armeggedon (which I still can't spell) or not accepting a blood transfusion even if she was gonna die without it. These beliefs come from what I consider to be misinterpretations or misunderstandings of Biblical passages and I'm not afraid to say it." We I take issue with is when JW's use Armageddon as a fear minipulation tool to make everything think they HAVE to be JW and agree with their religious "Organization" to get into paradise. Just like how I take issue with Evangelical right winged Protestants who use hellfire or the "Left behind" thing as a fear minipulation tool and that everyone MUST concure with the Fundamental branch of Protestantism and 'their' interpretations of the Scriptures to get into heaven. I also take issue with both faith groups sexism and the way they approuch gays. darby "This is exactly why evangelicals witness--we are EXTREMELY concerned about dangerous beliefs and the consequences. (I know this point has been made before). Not saying you have to buy into our beliefs, but understand it is precisely our concern over people that drives us to spread the gospel. I know many of you recognize this, but I also see many posts on this site that suggest that we have other intentions (usually selfish, hateful, close-minded, etc.)" Darb, don;t you think this is WHY JW's go door-to-door? Do you think their intentions are "selfish", "hateful"? The reason why Fundamental Protestants Wintesses in the form of Harvest Crusades or handing out pamplets to co-workers is the same reasons why JW's go door-to-door. And both your group and JW's are, "EXTREMELY concerned about dangerous beliefs." And what are "dangerous beliefs" what ever is opposite to your faith groups interpreations of Scripture,right? And what are the, "consequences" that both Fundamental Protestabts AND JW's are BOTH , "EXTREMELY concerned about"? Fundamental Protestants= hellfire and getting "Left Behind" Jehovah's Witnesses= Armageddon and ceasing to exist forever. QUOTE These beliefs come from what I consider to be misinterpretations or misunderstandings of Biblical passages and I'm not afraid to say it. "Alethia, this is not directed to you, since you are always pretty open to discussing the evangelical/conservative view. But again, progressives cannot use this standard for when to "say it," and then chastise evangelicals for speaking up when we feel there are "misinterpretations or misunderstandings." Again, not directed to you, Alethia, but just a general sense I get from postings on this board." Well do not Fundamental Protestants and JW's "chastise" us Progressives for not agreeing with their interpreations on such matters as Armageddon or denying that women should serve as pastors/elders? So why is only the right side allowed to "chastize...and NOT the left side? Cynthia : "I can say that there are many paths to God and try some, but an exclusivistic christian would feel that I was endangering my soul. Clearly a time to speak up to a friend or "neighbor". Can we agree? Probably not. Agree to disagree? I can, but I don't see any price to this... the other person sees a huge price. I think this is the fundamental problem." Yes, and the Home Style Buffet approuch to spirituality is what both fundamental Protestants and JW's excuse us of, do they not. They think that as Progressives that when left up to the Progressive minded individual to use their own perspection to choose spiritual food..they we WILL always choose the spiritual junk food, the spiritual tweenkies and cotton candy that has no real spiritual substance or value. Some far lefters are like this...but all? As Progressives we have learned to examine the types of meat and veggies we choose to eat..because we have experinced religious food poisioning so we not just simply going to eat whatever someone who claims to be a chief tells us is the best cunninglily I've read the Q&A and interview with Sam Harris concerning his book "The End of Faith" (i have not read the book). He says: "There is a pervasive piece of wishful thinking circulating among religious moderates, and it could get a lot of us killed. The idea is that all religions, at their core, teach the same thing. This is myth." First, I wish people would call beliefs simply that= "Beliefs" and not 'myths'. This word too closely is indentified with "fairy tales," in our society. And when people say this..they mean that all religion have a Golden Rule belief..this does not mean they think people actually follow it. "Anyone who says that there is no basis for (Osama bin Laden) his worldview in the doctrine of Islam is either dangerously ignorant or just dangerous." Well, just like in Star Wars there is both a Light and Dark side the Force. "Christianity is a target of much hatred in the world, and the challenge this book seems to make is that there are good reasons for that; that our own faith and Bible and doctrines support domination." It is not our "Own Bibles" but our own "INTERPRETATIONS" of those Bibles that is the problem. "I have a Pagan friend who once commented that "the problem with Christians is that even when they are moderate or liberal and genuinely interested and accepting of your religion, I can always see in their eyes that they believe deep down that theirs is the right way, the best way, the most true way." Well, but UNlike the Fundamentalist, do they TELL YOU THAT? And does not your pagen friend think the same? They admire your compassion to "help try neighbor" but he wonders how and why you feel a desire to coonect this to Jesus? darby: "I've always been fascinated about the whole discussion on "the right way." I believe Jesus is the right way to the Father, not in some arrogant, I'm better than you way, but because, among many other things, He said so" The fact that "Jesus said So." is NOT the problem in itself..rather, the problem lies in people's interpretations of what Jesus meant/means by this. "We're not supposed to lord that knowledge over people, but I dont' feel right staying silent about it either, because it is so important. I have to admit, I also don't understand why exclusivity offends so many." The Bible says to "season your words with salt," and not horseraddish..and yet with their zeal to witnesses..many fundamentalist pour too much horseraddish in their attempts to feed those they feel are spiritually hungry and this causes divisions. "I'm not offended that JWs don't think I'm going to heaven--I try to engage them in dialogue, etc. But at the end of the day, if JWs, or Pagans, or whatever decide they've got it right and I've got it wrong, where is the harm?" Where's the harm? Suppose you are the Fundamental Protestants, and this "JW" is sibling you grew up with and were very close. Now add to this a third beloved sibling that is devote Catholic. The three of you are each convience that you found the true version of Christianity, and each person believes the other two to be in a false religion or cult? Humm..do you see any big problems of divisions here? Each is going to try and convert the other because each believes the other's salvation is at stake. QUOTE(darby @ Mar 23 2005, 12:20 PM) I've always been fascinated about the whole discussion on "the right way." I believe Jesus is the right way to the Father, not in some arrogant, I'm better than you way, but because, among many other things, He said so. We're not supposed to lord that knowledge over people, but I dont' feel right staying silent about it either, because it is so important. I have to admit, I also don't understand why exclusivity offends so many. I'm not offended that JWs don't think I'm going to heaven--I try to engage them in dialogue, etc. But at the end of the day, if JWs, or Pagans, or whatever decide they've got it right and I've got it wrong, where is the harm? I'll vehemently disagree, but I'm not offended. They've got every right to believe what they want, don't they? Additionally, while Christians have done things over the years to bring hatred upon themselves (as have every other group who ever lived), we are also despised because of simply what we believe. Jesus promised we would be persecuted, much in the same way He was. Just for belief in Him, and His name, He said we would be despised. cunninglily : "You make good points Darby. But there is no getting around the fact that if you think Jesus is the *right* way to the Father, then you pretty much have to concede that any other way is wrong." Cuningliy, it's not so much that he thinks Jesus is THEE right way..but that his faith group has the right interpreation of Christ's way..and even if others from different faith groups claim the precise same statement is will be dismissed as false And this is a problem. This is where the trouble starts. cunninglily " Sam Harris is manning a position that could prove just as destructive as any position he challenges. In some way he seems to be saying that if we would all just get over this whole *God* business...then the world would be a better place. But this is not likely to happen, and so, what then? Does his intolerance of theism become a suppression and oppression of Theists; essentially replacing one *crazy* belief with another; from God to no-God?" Yes, that is precisley the point I was trying to make.

Well, yeah I agree that #4 sounds the most logical to me. I know a vast number of Liberals and Progressives are not big fans of the book of Revelations...But in there is talk of when thy Kingdom comes on earth as it is in heaven,,then The New Scrolls will be opened and then we will learn where are ideas were correct theologically or not. So everyone is on this quest to 'try' and gather as much info that they can, here, in this imperfect world/age..and that is the point..the quest..that is, that we try...the ending destination will not come untill the day the New scrolls are opened. So, in a sense, I see that for the far right fundamentalists to demand that everyone get all the doctrines correct right now...is, in a sense, a demand that we understand the New Scrolls when we have not arrived into the perfect Kingdom..No one has this abiltity. It's like fundamentalists are claiming to have read the New Scrolls before everyone else...which is like claiming that you have reached perfection..which is not possible when you are not in the Kingdom yet. What we CAN understand is The Golden Rule.

My father served as an a JW elder for some years and he gave a talk once in which he told the crowds that you can threaten your son or daughter with a whipping if they don;t take out the trash..and out of fear they will take out the trash..but threatening your kids with punishment can not force them to love you. He explained God is not pleased with religions or religious use fear tacticts to inspire people to accept God. If you constantly warn people of hellfire or end times you may indeed get them to obey God but this does not mean you can use these fear tactics to inspire them to LOVE God. God wants Unconditional love not merely obediance based on fear of trying to escape wrath. Too bad many JW's take not follow the wisdom of this advice. i have heard the old example of warning people of a storm out of love, concern for neighbor before both by Calvary Chapel's pastor Greg Laurie as well as JW's who give this example to explain why they go door-to-door. But if if were not for their FEAR of family and friends going to hell or getting "Left Behind" would they still be as equally zealous to invite their friends, family, neighbors to revivals and Harvest Crusades? If if were not for the FEAR of Armageddon getting their non-JW family, friends and neighbors would JW's be as equally zealous to go door-to-door? If all this so called LOVE, and zeal was NOT based on FEAR..or end times of hell getting non-members would either of these fundamental faith groups be SO motivated to witness to others and invite them to crusades, assemblies, rivals, meetings????

Well let me share with you '3' different fundamental faith group's interpretation of hell. #1. Southern Baptists= hell is a literal place of eternal hellfire torment for those who reject Christ is this age and the next. #2. The Present view of The Roman Catholic Church= Hell is not a an eternal firepit of punishment..but rather it is an eternal state of consciousness and seperation from God. #3. Jehovah's Witnesses= Hell is the unconscious state of those in the grave. On one hand JW's say there IS a second chance at accepting Jesus as Savior during the resurrection...but then they say if you reject the offer to be JW in this persent life then you will die at Armageddon or never be resurrected back to life again. Upon observation i would say that ovbiously #1 is the worst of these, that #2 is less hideous but there's still the eternal torment consciousness thing..and some may think that other than the idea that one has to be JW to be saved...that #3..to simply cease to exist forever is the most humane interpretation of Scripture out of all these...commonly called Conditionalism..and indeed many Progressive Christians and Moderate embrace conditionalism....Never the less ALL of these CAN and ARE used as minipulation tool of fear. All three of the above fundamental faith groups mentioned DO use these '3' different interpretations of hell or sheol to controll their members and to discourage them or scare them for questing their fundamental ineterpretations of Sciptures...and when this is done is is is emotionally unhealthy and can be considered spiritual abuse by religions. Follow Progressives here, what do you think of this all?

There is a 'difference' between a healthy fear of doing wrong verses when a person or group misuses the theme of fear to minipulate people or as Jesus once phrased it to, Lord it over the people." What I wish to address and question as a part of my research is.... All this passionate 'ZEAL' on behalf of fundamental faith groups to street witnesses and invite people to crusades or revivals and bringing in larg numbers of converts....is it simply based on agape? that is, unconditonal love of God and neighbor?...Or is much of this ZEAl motivated by an UNhealthy FEAR of Armageddon coming? Or The threat of hellfire or getting "Left Behind"? If devote memebrs of fundamental faith groups are constantly going around pestering family, friends and co-workers to come to 'their' church and "get saved"..even though these people HAVE told them they ARE Christian already...then we must ask what is feeding this agressive behavior? Is it merely agape? Is it simplt because they love Christ? Or is it because their pastor/elder(s) keep giving sermons/talks warning their congergational members that Armageddon of hell is trying to get their family members, friends and co-wrokers who are in those 'other' religions????