BeachOfEden

"The biblical reference they back up the doctrine with, from Jesus and Nicodemus, I would translate as meaning 'born from above' which is, entirely, metaphorically." Yes! That IS PRECISELY what 'I' Belive too! Cool!

Well yes, like I rember this one time me and my 2 best friends were hiking the beautful Santa Barbara Bontanic Gardens. The water fall was full and all the poppies were in bloom and it was so inspiring and beautful that there three of all just paused in awe looking up at the light shinning through the redwoods and at that moment my friend smiled and said he felt he was in the presence of God and my gal friend and I said we felt the same thing. I think the word "Renewl" is much better than "Born Again".

"Before I start my post, I'll declare myself. I am 23 years old, I am a convert to the Catholic Church. Basically, I believe most of the stuff that the majority (from my experience) of the posters here disagree with. No offense is intended although I do admit that I like stirring a pot. So that's fair warning." So would you discribe yourself as a "Progressive Catholic"? Or a Fundamental Catholic? Cause there are Progressive Catholics as well as Progressive Protestants and so on and as for me I welcome all Progressive christia from all religious backgrounds. "I'll start by saying that you (BreahOfEden and the posters who agreed with you) offer no evidence about the above statements. Before saying that someone did something, especially someone as influential and well known as Saint Augustine, you should name some sources, and quote him if possible. It's all well and good to make some general sweeping assertions but it isn't very reasonable." I'll will give you the background information. I took this class in the Fall of 2000. Most all of the students in the class were not well informed on bibical research. However, there was this one women I met in her 50's from Sweden who told me she was raised Catholic. The previous evening we had done our reading from our religious textbook and within that chapter was a piece on St.Austine. After both of us having read this, the Swedish Catholic women turned to me and said, "Oh! (in her thick Swedish accent) That Austine was a real jerk! He influenced the church with hellfire!" And I said, "And also the idea that the fall of man was all women's fault." "Yes! Precisely!" she replied. Now, what book was this? Well, I liked our text book SO well that instead of returning it for my money return at the end of the semester I chose to keep it. It is called, "Experiencing The World's Religion, Tradition, Change & Challenge," By Michael Moly. It is published by the Mayfield Publishing Company which can be found here Mayfield Publishing Company As far as the Fall of man and original sin concept....There is the Calvinistic view of salvation for only the elite but then there is also the more Progressive view known as conditionalism, which I subscribe to.

Thanks and everyone's comments here have been GREAT!!! The concerns that the last two posters stated I also share. I do everything I can on my own to spread the word of social justices by writting articles on equality and I have attended many peace gatherings in Santa Barbara..but I am leary to get "poltical" for the reason that posters here have gave. We have all seen the cult-like beahvior of the Far Right Republican Southern Baptists pushing their anti-women and anti-other faith views,ect through our government. But I have also observed the flip-side of Liberal Lefts who dislike even the most Liberal forms of ANY Christian or theist-themed/deists groups and at the rallies these Leftters are trying to preach an anti-theist-only view through 'their' politics..I have observed this first hand in UU churches and rallies in SB and sourounding cities... When we have come from being raised in fundamental faiths backgrounds and then escape as adults...we become very cautious..and rightly so. When I was raised in JW their was a high cult-like loyality and focus placed on this word "theocratic" order...which I guess is suppose to me "God ruled", but it really end up being Man-ruled by and through fundamental religious organizations. JW's preached that they were no part of this world politics..but later sources began poping up on the web saying they have proof of the opposite. Both JW and Christadelphians take pride in stating that they do not support wars..but then both are known for being nearly, if not almost equally sexist and anti-gay as Southern Baptists who ARE openly tring to run the government. Anyways..I thought I'd add my 2 cents.

"That's interesting. You know that both of these (Unity and Religious Science) were founded by people who were dissidents of Mary Baker Eddy." The says all of these thoughts can first be traced back to a belief in Sweden called Swedishborgism. " I've heard some people saying there are similarities between Eastern thought and CS. (Though I thought it was a bit of a slap on Buddhism. :-))" The Unity church here in Ventura advertises that a Buddhist class meets at their church to teach Buddhist mediational beliefs. "To my knowledge, Eddy didn't have any ideas or knowledge of Hinduism (or Buddhism). She wasn't really all that well educated or traveled. She did study with people who might have had some knowledge though (?)." Humm..I can't rememebr what the book said on that..But I Do rember that it said that both the founders of Self Realizationship and Ventenda Society (Both American neo-Hindu faiths) have read Unity and New Thought books and found them agreeable.

Today on MySpace I had an unlovely but not unexpected response on MySpace. I had proposed the idea that a person COULD be a liberal or progressive and could be in favor for medical marijuana for the ILL..and yet NOT support recreational pot smoking. As you can imagine..the "BLEEP" really hit the fan and all these party-down liberals began informing that one simply can NOT reject recreational pot-smoking AND really be a liberal. As if...recreational pot smoking has anything to do with fighting for the civil rights of women and minorieis...Paranoid, they even swore that if any liberal spoke of not being in favor of recreational pot smoking then they MUST really be a right wing Fundamental Christian spy! Personaly I have always found it a bit odd and hyprocritcal that all these liberal hippies swear they'd never eat food spayed with chemicals for fear of risking getting cancer but as long as their risk of posibilty getting cancer from smoking marijuana does not bother them..because at least this type of cancer comes from a natural plant?

Yes, I agree with you. One time on beliefnet that advertised that there IS NOW,actually a Progressive Islam Network. I have often thought that maybe they experince the same sort of problem as us..which is the fundamentalist have all the radio time, tv time and so their voice outshots everyone. It might be worth reseacrhing to see if this "Progressive Islam" network can be found on the web.

GREAT PRAYER!!! I am going to save this for this April's Earth Day! Thanks!!!

My book by Timothy Miller intitled, "America's Altternative Religions," explains how the founders of Religious Science church and Unity admit that Hindu thought had a great influence on their religious views on Christianity.

Des: "Hi,I was wanting to respond to this particular post here.on social justice for all...but in your view, do you think that 'maybe" the point about Jesus being "The relm to God for US.." might be the key element 'difference' between Progressive verese liberal Christianity?" "Well I would certainly buy this as the key element to Progressive Christianity. But to separate it from liberal Christianity might be a little more difficult. Who would you say was a liberal (vs Progressive) Christian. And is a liberal Christian sometimes just another name for a progressive on?" I believe from conversations I have heard from both Evangelicals on the far right AND liberals on the left..that yes, BOTH of the majorities DO believe that progressive IS just another or more appealing word for Liberal. Indeed..as far as social justice beliefs I think that Progs and Lib Christians pretty match see eye to eye..but theology speaking...there are a number of universalists mixed in with conditionalists in the networks of all Progressive Christians..but I don;t think that you'd find ANY conditionalist amoung Liberal Christian churches/groups..but instead only universalists...Also i think the vast majority's take on the discription of viewing "Christ as the relm to God," would be explained in pretty 'different' ways than those of Progs. I think that even Sponges statement that "Jesus is everyone's Savior..whether they know it or not" would not reside well with them because even though this view of salvation IS inclusive and open to all...Liberals seem to hold a deep mistrust of the mere concept or even the mention of the word "slavation," or "Savior." They seem to believe that when one views Jesus as "savior" in ANY form then he becomes a right wing-type ruler rather than a divine friend. "As far as I know the only person to use the Cosmic Christ is Matt Fox (at least the term). I definitely just love the concept. Maybe you are talking about some UUs? Or people who see Jesus as a teacher, prophet, etc but not as in any way the Messiah. Is that describing a Jew? I mean they may not really be part of a Jewish synagogue or consider themselves Jewish but that's the difference no? Btw, I think that that pretty much captured my views (which have evolved) a few years ago." Christian UU's,yes but non Christian UU's even more so. > Do you think this is the open balanced middle? "I'd definitely say it is balanced. But is it the true middle? There must be thousands of non-fundamentalists going to church or not going who don't think that non-Christians are going to hell." And THOSE ARE THE ONES whom we should reach out to, the ones I call Evangelicals Lites. "For example, at least in this country, I don't think the average Catholic believes that all the "nonbelievers" (even good nonbelievers) go to hell. " Well, it surely DOES help the the Vatican actaully did CHANGED their former fundamental view of hell towards a more moderate or progressive conditionalist-type view.

"I think CS is kind of a damaging religion in many ways. It's good to be able to see the lunacy in it. But the whole idea that you are perfect means that a lot of your experience isn't valided. If you are sick, you aren't really sick. If you get picked on by other kids that's not really happening. Clearly being sick or picked on are never good things but at least in normal families you have your parents on your side saying it's a bad thing. In CS you don't, you are kind of left on your own as a young child. So that's why I think it can be damaging in a psychological way." Yeah, that is kinda the same problem with Hindu thought..that evil is an issue..and it's not. What just happened in Hindu was not all in our minds. "It's interesting but CS always talk about the medical disasters (and there are lots of them). But they don't acknowledge anything in their own positions. I see that here as well." That is the most annoying..when they don;t even try to explain their reasons for beliving something. "How many more people lived due to blood transfusions than died. Prob. quite a lot more." That's true. My brother got in a serious car accident about 15 years ago and nearly died. He took blood..but just last year he found out that he got Hep C..So it's a gamble either way. > I believe in the Web of Life concept that humans and animals and nature are all one big family and that God's Holy Sprit can be felt most strongly in nature..but the idea of God being an impersonal force that lives in the center of the earth is too abstract for me....Though I CAN understand God's Holy Spirit dwelling on and through the earth and the cosmos..If that makes any sense... "Yes, it makes sense. I also wouldn't place it specifically in some place like the center of the Earth." I think the Natural Deists actually believes that God as the universal collective soul lives in the earth and breaths life into everything living upon the earth.

Maybe it can be liken to the police telling people not to try and cross flooded cross roads with their cars while it's raining. If a person chooses cross anyways and gets in trouble...Does that mean it's the police fault or the person who chooses to cross the flooded stream?

"Yes, Ellen D. and a no. of other celebs (Robin Williams, Alan Shepherd, etc.) among them have CS in their backgrounds." I 'think', and this is just a guess on my part, but I think Ellen may have damagaed feelings from her days being raised CS..and if so she should exchanged thoughts with Robin Williams. For one thing Robin Williams is great and at seeing the humor in things and maybe this could help both of them with their ultra fundie CS burned backgrounds. ."I think there are some correlations between CS (JW, LDS, and Fundies). " Yeah, I agree but since all these groups are equally fundamental they all get really p-ssed off when you tell them this. "IMO, CS is the worse because it could actually kill you. (Though isn't JW where you don't have blood transfusions?" True. They site Scriptures where God said not to eat meat with blood in it. They believe that traits of of a person's soul or even an animal's in in the blood. They also quote medical health reasons like Hep B and C and AIDS. I never made the Scriptural connection..but the Hep B and C and AIDS part has been medically verified. "As for the definition of Panentheism vs Pantheism God is not just looking over your shoulder but involved in the most mundane and silly aspects of your life. He's (it's always HE) is telling you the most mundane things you can imagine." I not sure if this makes sense..but I really like the way the natural theists like Waldo Emerson talk..even though I myself do not subscribe to the World Oversoul idea. I believe in the Web of Life concept that humans and animals and nature are all one big family and that God's Holy Sprit can be felt most strongly in nature..but the idea of God being an impersonal force that lives in the center of the earth is too abstract for me....Though I CAN understand God's Holy Spirit dwelling on and through the earth and the cosmos..If that makes any sense...

Hey everyone. Do you have your own Progressive Christian web page you made? If so, then post the url here!

What about a FREE TCPC banner exchange in which Progressive Christian individual's could place the TCPC logo banner on 'their' web pages..and if...TCPC approves of their website's message as being in harmony with the 8 points..then in return TCPC could list their web page as TCPC's Recommended LINks or Sponsors? This would help Link Progressive Christians together in a network, promote their web pages as well as help promote TCPC in general.

I see your point. In the study of social anthropology the majority see no problem or conflict in discribing other people's cutural spiritual beliefs as 'myths," ..but is it not true that the vast majority of the adverage person thinks of the word 'myth' as meaning "fairy-tale."? For example if I was a Hopi Native American and a social anthropologist from Englad discribed my spiritual views as 'myth', I think I was be a bit offended and would wonder why he could not simply discribe my belief as a belief. It might make the Native American think that the European was discribing 'other' people's beliefs as 'myths', and maybe his own views as facts. I was coomented this to my college teacher in My Native American Social Anthropology class...but she acted as if my point was without value.

BeachOfEden: >This family member of yours who is all into Campus Crusade For Christ...does she inform you that because you have decided that you are a Progressive Christian Christian Rather than a Fundamental one..that you are an unsaved "cult"? Just curious. " She is a skilled middle aged proselitizer (which makes me an unskilled sophisticated progressive Christian-- I really really like the 8 points btw). Anyway, she doesn't say anything negative in her proselitizing, she tries and takes your position and show it as limited, but she will sort of side with you as far as she can. I think she retains the cult status for something like Christian Science or JW. I may be (in her eyes) a cultish follower, but she is a better arguer than that." I would agree. My mom is devote JW and that is her way of proselitizing as well. Yesterday I was watching the Ellen when she commented that she was raised Christian Science and in so many words she was it understood that that she did not care for it. I think it would be interesting to here some more views from her on this..because I have always felt a commom ground between the fundamentalism between Christian Science, JW, LDS and Fundamental Protestants.

One thing that often has concerned me is the far the the far right often using their religion to try and rule our government...while...how to we as Progressive Christians make sure that we stay true to our Progressive Christian views withOUT infriging upon the belief that Church & State should remain seperate?

Oh yes! But all that is wrong with the Christian Fundamental's wrong interpretations of the Bible CAN be traced back to St. Augistine. In my classes at college on Surverys of Western religions we learned that St. Augistine was the one who promoted the following anti-social justices into the church...That he was the one who promted: 1. Hellfire threats 2. The idea that the earth is evil 3. The idea that women are all Jezbels and thus deserve no equality what-so-ever. I am am sure there are more to add to the list but this is just for starters...

Welcome aboard, Des, This family member of yours who is all into Campus Crusade For Christ...does she inform you that because you have decided that you are a Progressive Christian Christian Rather than a Fundamental one..that you are an unsaved "cult"? Just curious. Heard alot about Campus Crusade For Christ and Young Life. Both are said to try and trick people's kids into joining the far right wing.:/

I bet,especially if the college or university happens to be a 'Christian' one.

I am kinda the same. I agree to a degree..on Sponges view that jesus is everyone's Savior..whether they know it or not..but yet i am not a universalist but rather a conditionalist. I do NOT agree with the fundamentalist's take that "The Bible is withOUT error." ...But on the other hand, I don;t agree with the far left that believes that the bible is just a collection of positive man-made "myths." I feel that many of the Scriptures that Fundamentalist claim are literal are indeed actually symbolic in nature...especially the ones dealing with purification by fire...just like in many Native American cultures... But I don;t embrace the belief that Jesus did NOT really raise from the dead and that that this is merely a metaphoric 'myth...Because for 'ME' this removed the heart of optimism of the Judeo-Christianity. I speak here for me and NOT for everyone, but I agree with that one Progressive Presbyterian pastor who said that if we get so liberal that we reduce all the possoble hopes in the Bible to 'myths' than we are left with a nearly secular only answer to a social justice movment without a solid spirituality in the center. I am given the impression, from hearing many Liberal Christians, especially the UU ones,(NOT on HERE..but elsewhere) that because they themselves felt so betrayed by their former fundamental churches and the way these fundamental faith groups used the threat of backslidding and loosing their "salvation"..then this makes them convinced that one could NOT possobly hold ANY sort of belief in Jesus as a Savior concept withOUT really being narrow-minded fundamental extremists. And if they don't say this..they act like they don;t trust ANY Moderate or Progressive and also acted like they think they are hidding some far right wing agenda but poising as liberals..when obviously..this is not true.

So basically, you should vote for the issues that you feel supports social justice and not focus on just being loyal to one party or that other? Is that it? Well, what if none of the parties support enough of the social justice views that you hold? Or one if one party's candidate hold's one major social justice view but then totoally rejects another that you feel passionately about? And you feel it is impossible for you to choose between the two? I have often wondered that 'if' a person was a Progressive and did support social justice for all...'could' they really be politically 'neutral'? Or are there degrees? Any thoughts?

Do you think these could also be term "Moderate Theology"? Just curious.

Here, I will show you what I mean, by quoting him: "Religious networks make a mistake by becoming identified with the fate of any one political party. The Democratic Party did not do a much better job of representing our hopes and aspirations than the winners. Although I think that backing Ralph Nader would have been a mistake, he may have been correct in accusing the Democrats of being just as beholden to big-money interests as Republicans." " In ancient times, somebody attributed to Jesus the observation, “My kingdom is not of this world.” I certainly wouldn’t want politicians who identified themselves as progressive Christians running the country anymore than I like selfproclaimed born-again Christians being in charge. I think that having any religious group dominate the government is dangerous. In my opinion, our focus must be on the transformation of ourselves, our churches, and our society—in that order." What do YOU think?