BeachOfEden

You are all right that as Progressive Christians this "Left behind" belief is very concerning for many reasons. And here are some of my reasons why... A BELIEF SYSTEM THE FOCUSES ON AN ESCAPE HATCH TO HEAVEN LEADS TO SAYING ,"SCREW THE EARTH." Job Ebenzer, director of Environemtnal Stewardship For The Evangelical Luthern Church of America said in the July 19, 1997 issue of the Ventura Star newspaper that, "Many times, heaven and not earth as been the churches' focus, but when you recite the Lord's Prayer, it actually says: "Thy will be done ON EARTH.as it is in heaven." He also explains how this theme of the earth is completely missing from the theological programs at the universities and religious colleges. Yet, the question is why? Especially why the Bible, both the Hebrew Scriptures and Christian Scriptures are filled with such a wealth of information of this subject? THE 'RAPTURE" BELIEF LEAVES OUT HOPE AND CARE OF ANIMALKIND 1. Psalm 36:5, 6 tells us that God is concerned for animalkind and humankind alike. The 'Rapture' belief takes in NO consideration for animalkind's wellbeing and how we fit into the web of life along with them as earth's family. Intersting that is the story of Noah that animals are made sure to have a safe escape plan by God but all a sudden in the "rapture' no one gives a damn about animalkind. 2. Psalm 145:15 and 37:29 speaks of God's plan that the earth is to "endure FOREVER." NATIVE AMERICAN'S UNDERSTAND "THY KINGDOM COME" BETTER THAN EVANGELICALS... 3. The Native American author Sun Bear wisley points out in his book Black Dawn, Bright Day that in the Bible where the Bible speaks of Jesus talking about "The end of the 'world'," the word here "World" is actually a mistranslation. The actually Greek word found here is suppose to be this "AGE", taken from the Greek word "AEON". See the footenotes in the Living Bible or Living Translation Chapter 9 and 24 of Matthew. So Jesus is talking about the end of this present system of things and 'NOT' the end of this physical planet earth, as the vast majority of Evangelical/Fundamental Protestants teach.So Jesus is talking about the end of this present system of things and 'NOT' the end of this physical planet earth, as the vast majority of Evangelical/Fundamental Protestants teach. ANTI-EARTH THEOLOGY SEEMS TO ALWAYS ALSO CONNECT TO ANTI-FEMALE THEOLOGY 4. Because of the Evangelical churches' concern over the ancient theme of the Cananite cult and it's immoral and violant philosophies and practices that were against the God of the Bible, an extreamist parnoia of the femine type attributes of God such as compassion and empathy have resulted. The fact is that the Bible does speaks very clearly that though God is Spirit and therefore is neither male nor female physically in gender, still God has the perfect blend of both fatherly and motherly qualities. After all, let us remember that in the Beginning God said to Jesus: "Let us created them (the humans) in OUR image. " And so, it says that "God created them both male and female." See Gensis 1:2. Thus, it would seem clear that God does not consider femine attributes as inferior or insulting. Infact, Isaiah 49: 19 actually discribes God's love for the ancient people as being like how a nursing mother cares for her newborn baby, saying also that Israel people "were the child of God's womb." God's Son, Jesus, broke many of the ancient man-made rules of his times that were based on discrimination. See John 4:7-42. McDonough speaks in his book how it has been tragic for women, for the church and for the wider earth community as a whole that the vast majority of churches have chose to based their their additudes on the earth and woman and those not in their groups on the social customs and traditions of the dominate views of their society instead of follow the example and creative lead and Gospel of Jesus. ANTI-EARTH+ANTI-FEMALE+ANTI-NATURE=ANTI-SOCIAL JUSTICE Historians of women's equality rightly have pointed out how history proves that additudes that belittle and degrade women seems to come from the precise seem sources who also exploite the earth and hunt animals for mere cruel sport. Does the future salvation of our earth and it's preservation lie souly on imperfect humankind's effort? While we as individuals, and collectively do our part. Revelation 11:18 PRO-EARTH, PRO-NATURE=PRO-SOCIAL JUSTICE=PROGRESSIVE CHRISTIANITY Our understanding of the earth and all life upon it and the visualization of it's coming renewl and restoration and it's connection to God could and should inspire a call for a renewed earth-based spirituality appropriate for our time.

Group: Members Posts: 87 Member No.: 179 Joined: 25-June 04 "This said, fundamentalist churches rarely participate in ecumenical gatherings as they don't wish to associate with (as they see it) "liberal, backsliding, deviant bastardizations of the true Christian faith." Yes, that is correct. You'll noticed that when Calvary Chapel's pastor Greg Laurie has his Harvest Crusades...no Progressive or even moderate mainstream churches join. He has voiced dissapointment in this..but the moderates and progressives know from personal experinces that if they tried something like this then they'd have to endure sermons about things they don;t feel are in harmony with Social Justice. They may talk about other faith groups claiming to be Christian are really unsaved and angerous cults. They may say something sexist. Having said this...while it may not be pssoble to inner faith with the most extrem versions of the far right...Still there ARE those who consider themselves to be more Lite Evangelicals, Catholics, JW's LDS,SDAs..ect. That is..while their churches may NOT be moderate or Progressive...still THEY MAY BE..and thus such individuals might be really glad to learn that people like THEM ARE welcomed to join US. I think that IS our best bet..to try and reach out and innerfaith with moderate and Progressive minded individuals who may be in churches that are not. I think another possible problem that we need to look at..is the fact that many far right extreme fundamental Christians have lumped us Progressive Christianity WITH far a branch of the far left that we are, and we need to help clearify this mistaken view. I am friends with many Liberal Christians who may not share our belief that Jesus is the relm or Gateway to God and they may view many Christian basics we hold as merely positive 'myths." The extreme right can NOT or does not care to UNDERSTAND the 'difference' between the more far left liberal version of Christianity verses the Progressive Christianity. Unforuantly, the etxreme far right pastors have convinced Evangelicals that basically if you are NOT an Evangelical Christian then whether you are a progressive Christian or a Bahai person or a Neo-pagan or New ager..that it's all the same. If they could learn that would do NOT view Jesus as just a good myth and that they only difference between our Christianity and there's is that we actually believe in social jsutice and that furthermore we actually believe in practicing it towards ALL..NOT just the branches of Christianity that agree with us.

"This said, fundamentalist churches rarely participate in ecumenical gatherings as they don't wish to associate with (as they see it) "liberal, backsliding, deviant bastardizations of the true Christian faith." Yes, that is correct. You'll noticed that when Calvary Chapel's pastor Greg Laurie has his Harvest Crusades...no Progressive or even moderate mainstream churches join. He has voiced dissapointment in this..but the moderates and progressives know from personal experinces that if they tried something like this then they'd have to endure sermons about things they don;t feel are in harmony with Social Justice. They may talk about other faith groups claiming to be Christian are really unsaved and angerous cults. They may say something sexist. Having said this...while it may not be pssoble to inner faith with the most extrem versions of the far right...Still there ARE those who consider themselves to be more Lite Evangelicals, Catholics, JW's LDS,SDAs..ect. That is..while their churches may NOT be moderate or Progressive...still THEY MAY BE..and thus such individuals might be really glad to learn that people like THEM ARE welcomed to join US. I think that IS our best bet..to try and reach out and innerfaith with moderate and Progressive minded individuals who may be in churches that are not.

See new thread here intitled, "Should We innerFaith With Conseratives?"

I got the lastest issue of the TCPC newsletter today. On page#3 under News & events there is an article intitled," President's Report, in which author James R. Adams says that "Progressive Christians have done a lousy job of making any effort to innerfaith with Conserative Christians." Any of us Progressive Christians who manage to escape or overcome a past fundamental church background and had to learn to deal with our devote still conservative family members or friends that we better return to the fold of "orthodox" Christianity before the end comes...knows by past attempts of trying to reason with such conservative family and friends that unforuantly this is like talking to a brick wall. I have read many a booklets at Christian book stores in which Evangelical Protestant author's and pastors warn people that they view even their Progressive and liberal Protestant peers as New Age false cults. This kinda puts a damper on any attempt to inneract with them. Another thing is the far right Protestants, Catholics, LDS, and JW's..each of these conserative faith groups views everyone ELSE as lost unsaved and hopelslly false heathens who they should not wast any chance at getting spiritual koodies from. Such groups will only innerfaith with groups who agree with THEM. Our best chance is to focus on those who would be best discribed as "Evangelical Lites", Liberal-minded Catholics, and any Mormon, JW or the like who voices to us a strong interest in social justice that they themslves voice as being missing in their own church groups. To help in this...the more Progressive Christians who come and join here who came from these conseravtive faith group backgrounds...the more we can be ready and capable of relating to their jounry towards a more Progressive view of Christianity and that the Golden Rule should surpass our doctrinal views..So what i would sugest? Well, what fundamental faith group background did YOU come from? Do you know friends who came from the same? Do they voice agreemnt in your Progressive views on Christianity that you have shared with them? if so, then by all means, invite them here to join us! Also considering creating a free web page of your own with the word "Progressive Christian" attatched to the name of the former conservative faith group you came from. Example "Progressive Mormons Alternative Network." Or replace the titled, "mormon" here with YOUR own former faith group name here. Then advertise it on Progressive themed web links and on the googel directory or Yahoo search.

That would help greatly! Also, is there any way you can ask her how TCPC would go about be able to actually publish articles on beliefnet? Like the way Bishop Sponge does? This would expose TCPC's message to more of the public.

Yes, you are right that IS the problem with fundies. Like you confront them as say,"Look 'if' your interpreation of hell is a literal place of hellfire torment reserved for the hopeleslly evil..then how is it that this scripture in Acts said that JESUS WENT THERE FOR '3's days BEFORE being raised up? This scares them because logic tells them 'if' hell really was an eternal fire pit resrved for the hopessly evil then how could Jesus GO THERE? Furthermore if the Bible says that "God wishes NO ONE to perish" then how could God WISH people to be tormented forever? They know these interpreations contridict and this makes them doubt what Billy Graham said and then they think," oh no! Wait..How could Billy graham be wrong in his interpreations on hell? He's been blessed by God and the the proof that he is right lies in the fact that millions of people have come to know christ and turn their lives around by listening to his teaching of the Bible." Thus to question Billy graham's interpretations would equal questioning true Christianity..so it must be a trick of doubt placed by the Devil! But they never stop to consider that Billy Graham IS imperfect and therefore his interpreations are imperfect and this has NOTHING to do with the Devil or doubting God or thinking the Bible is just a positive fairy tale. It has to do with the fact that God does NOT contridict himself but imperfect people do and if a contriction lies in Christianity it must be due to man's imprefect interpreations of it and their translation errors. The Fundamentalists can not believe that church translators would purposely have altered orginal Greek and Hebrew words that were found in the orginal manuscripts. Why can't they believe this? that the church fathers COULD do this? Aren't they Imperfect? Don;t they have selfish agendas. But why would God aloows them to do this? they would reason. Why does God allow Bush to be president? Why do God allow us to all make wrong choices? But how could anyone know what Jesus was really trying to teach us then? they would reason. Being a follower of Christ is about the Golden Rule and this IS understandable without having to sort out translations and Greek and Hebrew. It's pretty universal. As for doctrines? Well, study actual Greek and Hebrew words and their orginal meanings helps...But if these people are too affraid to look then how will they "test and make sure of what they are hearing is really so or not" -Acts 17:11.

I got the lastest issue of the TCPC newsletter today. On page#3 under News & events there is an article intitled," President's Report, in which author James R. Adams says that "Progressive Christians have done a lousy job of making any effort to innerfaith with Conserative Christians." Any of us Progressive Christians who manage to escape or overcome a past fundamental church background and had to learn to deal with our devote still conservative family members or friends that we better return to the fold of "orthodox" Christianity before the end comes...knows by past attempts of trying to reason with such conservative family and friends that unforuantly this is like talking to a brick wall. I have read many a booklets at Christian book stores in which Evangelical Protestant author's and pastors warn people that they view even their Progressive and liberal Protestant peers as New Age false cults. This kinda puts a damper on any attempt to inneract with them. Another thing is the far right Protestants, Catholics, LDS, and JW's..each of these conserative faith groups views everyone ELSE as lost unsaved and hopelslly false heathens who they should not wast any chance at getting spiritual koodies from. Such groups will only innerfaith with groups who agree with THEM. Our best chance is to focus on those who would be best discribed as "Evangelical Lites", Liberal-minded Catholics, and any Mormon, JW or the like who voices to us a strong interest in social justice that they themslves voice as being missing in their own church groups. To help in this...the more Progressive Christians who come and join here who came from these conseravtive faith group backgrounds...the more we can be ready and capable of relating to their jounry towards a more Progressive view of Christianity and that the Golden Rule should surpass our doctrinal views..So what i would sugest? Well, what fundamental faith group background did YOU come from? Do you know friends who came from the same? Do they voice agreemnt in your Progressive views on Christianity that you have shared with them? if so, then by all means, invite them here to join us! Also considering creating a free web page of your own with the word "Progressive Christian" attacthed to the name of the former conservative faith group you came from. Example "Progressive Mormons Alternative Network." Or replace the titled, "mormon" here with YOUR own former faith group name here. Then advertise it on Progressive themed web links and on the googel directory or Yahoo serach.

When Christian Fundamentalists, Evangelical Protestants, Fundamental Catholics, and JWs say that they believe "The Bible to be inerrant." What precisley do they mean? Would not all these groups agree that all modern day copies of the Bible are precisely just that="copies"? I mean, no one has the 'orginal' manuscripts as they were found in the sand, and therefore 'ALL' bibles today DO have translations errors in them and thus are in error. For example JW's and Christadelphians acknoweldge that the King James Bible alone holds over 2000 proven translation errors. But each of these faith groups have their favorite versions of the Bible right? Some strict Born again Pentacostals view the KJV as 'THEE" truest Bible and JW's view their New World Translation as such, and the Catholics..their version and so on. Do each of these faith groups that their copies of the Bible ARE 'JUST' copies and that they have translations errors in them. I myself do not view ANy of our modern day Bibles withOUT error but I neither view the Bible as just a collection of positive 'myths'..to live by. i believe the ORGINAL Bible manuscripts WERE inspired by God...but I believe since then all our modern day Bibles have been tempered with and research proves this, showing you where translations have purposely CHANGED orginal Greek and Hebrew words to support 'their' own agendas.

"I read the last book he wrote before he died, Farewell to God. I read it right after it was published actually. It was a gift from my husband to help me come to grips as to why I left Jehovah's Witnesses. I read "Losing Faith in Faith" by Dan Barker at the same time." " When God Becomes A Drug," Is the book that helped me get out of JW. "I respect the choice Templeton made in leaving the Christianity he knew, because he saw the flaws in a literal, infallible view of the Bible. That is why I left JW's." I think I will start a thread intiled,"The Bible WithOut Error?" "In hindsight, now that I've opened my mind to a new way of imaging Christianity, I wonder what kind of progressive Christian he would have been if he had made that choice instead. He admitted in an interview to Lee Strobel that he missed Christianity. It's sad when everything is tossed out because people believe that literalism is the only way." Precisely what I was/am thinking. In the Evangelical book,"A Cause For Faith," when Strobel admited that he missed Christ..I was thinking how the shame of it is that the author of this book, being Evangelical will only continue to insist to his questioning friend that THEE 'ONLY" Christianity to choose from is the fundamental kind. If only Strobel and others like him, like the author of "Leaving the Fold" could have come to ecounter Progressive Christianity as a non-fundamental option.

Yeah, I know I read that book, "A Cause For Faith." In that book, towards the end, the author tries to convince the reader why 'he' believes that the fundamental view of hell is bibical rather than the conditional view. To me...his challenge does the opposite and makes a cause in support of conditionalism.

Ok..here's that article written by that gay man who calls himslef a G0y and his website is: www.G0ys.org (I have cleaned up his use of terms) This is what he had to write...(keep in mind this is written by a gay man) GAY" has, in many social circles, been made almost synonymous with "DISEASE". Now why do you suppose that would be? Let's take a look at the CDC's figures on AIDS infection (for example) in the US for a clue: AIDS Cases by Exposure Category (2002) Following is the distribution of the estimated number of diagnoses of AIDS among US adults and adolescents by exposure category. A breakdown by sex is provided where appropriate. Exposure Category (CDC figures) Male Female Total Male-to-male sexual contact 420,790 - 420,790 Injection Drug Use 172,351 67,917 240,268 Male-to-male sexual contact and injection drug use 59,719 - 59,719 Heterosexual contact 50,793 84,835 135,628 Other* 14,350 6,519 20,869 * Includes hemophilia, blood transfusion, perinatal, and risk not reported or not identified. The first line should be a wake up call! Male to male contact: 420,790 cases! This is as much or more than all other causes of infection combined (& please notice that the 3rd leading cause is a combination of [male/male sex -or- IV drugs])! But, is the phrase "male/male sexual contact" accurate? Not really. Why? Because there is a form of male/male sexual contact particularly good at spreading HIV (article). Ironically, it's also a major vector for AIDS spread by male/female sexual contact. If you want to spread disease, & really let it explode into society in epidemic proportions, - anal "play" is the sexual fetish to participate in: You'll notice that the gender of the person on the receiving end of this act is not disclosed in the picture. This is because the gender is irrelevant. In the chart above: 135,628 cases of AIDS were attributed to "HETEROsexual" contact. What you are not told is the FORM the "Heterosexual contact" took. People may assume, because of the label "HETEROsexual", that it was penile/vaginal sexual contact. This is unlikely for (2) reasons. 1) More men are likely to use a condom in penile/vaginal sex to prevent pregnancy; And, 2) contrary to misconception , the vagina is fairly hostile to HIV taking hold, where as the anus will welcome it readily! Most women infected by HIV became so by participating in anal intercourse, or repeated unprotected vaginal sex with an infected partner (who almost always contracted HIV via anal intercourse or *IV drug use). The playground acronym for AIDS: "Anally Injected Death Sentence" is not inaccurate in this respect! AIDS is seldom spread in other ways. Today's lesson: Being gay does not spread AIDS. Anal "sex" does. It does so +400% more often than the next statistical bullet! (No-Stigmas?) This growing group, that Asserts that anal-sex-play is "gAy. It's not "gAy" as much as it simply doesn't give a dAmn about the recipient of this outlaw form of pseudo-sex. Furthermore, the it will stop at nothing to spread participation in this fetish to the ends of the earth. The ad images shown are examples of mass e-mail marketing, - several e-mails that a junk mail account set up specifically to monitor "gAy" e-mail collects daily. Look & you'll that that every such e-mail promotes a single theme: Anal "sex" = "GAY". They" will even expend energy combating the simple truths this website shares with others! They will call us "oppressive" because we point out that anal sex is indirectly killing people. TheyT will call us "homophobic", despite the fact that we don't limit the message about the dangers of anal sex to "gAy" men. They will try to obfuscate & minimize the dangers of "anal sex" -- despite the fact that the figures on the chart above won't budge for them. Such people talks about "condom education campaigns", but it becomes obvious over a decade into such campaigns that either the campaigns do not work, or the fact that condoms DO fail (& that people don't always use them), - accounts for the 2002 figures on AIDS charted above! AIDS may be the ultimate bane of anal sex, but the fact is that "anal intercourse" (if it can even be called that), is a leading vector for virtually ALL sexually transmitted diseases & at levels many times higher! The mental spectre created in the public mind by images like the ones discribed here are the reason why g0ys do not adopt the "gAy" personna, label & do not want to be Associated with that culture. : Many people do not know to draw a distinction between "gay" & "anal. Isn't it Romantic? - N0T! Here's a number for you: According to the CDC, condoms fail about 2% of the time during anal sex. Since it only takes (1) failure to spread HIV, that's 1300% overkill. Last time I saw an overkill factor like that it was tied to the nuclear weapons program. Have 1/14th of a nuclear war & everyone is still dead. Soft Personalities: In psychology, people are sometimes classified based on their willingness to accept a suggestion. In the minds of susceptible people, a slogan repeated enough times is taken as truth: "The earth is flat", etc. Lacking either the willingness or faculty to question blanket statements about reality, these people live in a world made of gossip, myth & half truth; -- And they cannot understand why the people around them succumb to the likes of HIV. Ask any gay guy who's over 49 where most of his adolescent 'friends' who came out as "gay" after Stonewall are now. Ask those still alive why they didn't become HIV+ too (the answers will all have 1-thing in common: an avoidance of anal penetration). If we g0ys don't act, then the only thing these awesome younger dudes are gonna find are the disease ridden lies of a culture all dead except for a few statistical long-shots. I for one love these younger dudes, - & many g0ys themselves have kids whom they want to be comfortable to live a life more open & honest, -- & without the stigmas associated with being "gAy". If you could read some of the private feedback to this site! There are lots of younger dudes in serious pain -- not because they are hott for other guys ... but because they HATE what mainstream "gAy" media portrays men who love men as being. But, at the pinnacle of this open detest is the practice of "ANAL-PLAY"; -- And whether done by M/M or M/F couples -- g0ys abhor it. The good news is that it's so easy to stop that particular practice! Ignorance does form a foundation for excuse -- at least as far as the matter of "intent" is concerned. G0YS.ORG is a site devoted to men who love men, but who want nothing to do with anal-penetration or the stigmas associated with it.

You know, that account of Billy Graham kinda reminds me of that book, "Leaving The Fold," accept in her case, she did go to liberal education and ended up turning non-theist. The problem is...many, if not most fundamental christianity here/see and see these types of stories..that is..where a Evangelical has doubts...is exposed to liberal or humanist views..and the next thing you know that are atheist. I have known many JWs like this. They are affraid that if they examine any other interpreation on the Bible or world thought than their own..then the Devil will trick them into being decieved and turn against God. However, Christ asked what type of foundation do you build your faith on anyways? solid rock or sand? If you build your relationship with God on a solid rock of reason and not on a sand of emotionalism than when you are exposed to counter beliefs it won't wash your belief from under your feet. Maybe if Graham would have looked at liberal theology he would have learned that hell simply means the grave and that God does not send people to a burning fire pit forever..then he would not feel such an inner conflict about preaching that God is love and wished no one to perish one minute and then teaching people they's better accept Jesus before it's too late and they end up in hell

A Fair Judgement A FAIR AND INCLUSIVE RANSOM MOST CHURCHES TEACH ALL MUST CHOOSE CORRECTLY NOW OR THEY ARE DOOMED! Almost without exception the contradictory beliefs now being proclaimed to be a confused world have one thing in common,which is the use of fear as a method of making converts. It may be a fear of enternal torture or the fear of death in Armageddon. In the New Testament the Apostle Paul wrote: "As in Adam all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive."(1 Corthians 15:22) In Romans 8:19-23. Many of the Lord's people down through the age failed to realize this and so made the mistake of supposing that all were lost who did not accept their message. But where does this thinking come from? This taken directly from the offical Billy Graham Web Site Q and A's found at: Billy Graham's Take On Salvation This is what Billy Graham has to say on slavation on his site: Will we have the opportunity to accept Christ and get right with God after we die? "The Bible teaches that our decision for Christ must be made this side of the grave.We find no hope in the Bible for people who do not get right with God in this life. The most important thing we have to settle in this life is our eternal salvation. Those who ignore God's warnings and invitations do so at great peril. Proverbs 29:1 says: "A man who remains stiff-necked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed -- without remedy." God is giving us opportunity now to receive Christ and eternal life. "Today, if you hear his voice, harden not your hearts" (Hebrews 4:7)." First of all we need to examine who God is talking about here when He speaks of, "Those who remain stiff-necked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed -- without remedy." First here, God is talking about those who already fully know all the facts about God's true plan for humanity and then rejected it. So if one knows all the facts this would NOT discribed an "unbeliever." Also this quote: "Today, if you hear his voice, harden not your hearts" (Hebrews 4:7). It says clearly here that you must first , "Hear His voice." So this indicates NOT a non-believer but rather someone who hear and listened to God's message and then rejected it. This is also discribed as "Grieving The Holy Spirit," and is called "The Unforgivable Sin." To comitte the "unforgivable sin," you must first understand what it is. If our "progress" has lead to a resticted view of the grace of God, if in our new understanding we have reached the conclusion that ONLY those will be blessed who agree with US and accept the message which, at best, we are able to present imperfectly,then we have regressed,and the glorious light of the true knowledge of God as it shines in the face of Jesus Christ is far out in front,while we have been left behind in the darkness. CHRIST DIED FOR ALL God's love for the sin-cursed and dying race has been made operative through the gift of his Son to be humankind's Redeemer. In John 3:16 we read,"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,that whosoever believes in him should not perish,but have everlasting life". But, as Paul asks,"How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?"(Romans 10:14) And the same apostle also explains that, "Satan, who is the god of this evil system, has made them blind, unable to see the glorious light of the Gospel that is shinning upon them, or do not understand the amazing message we preached about the Christ, who is the image of God".(2 Corthians 4:4) CHOOSES NOT TO OR 'CAN NOT' SEE THE LIGHT OF CHRIST NOW? This indicates that, as long as Satan continues to rule this, "present evil world",even those who do have the Gospel imperfectly presented do not have a fair opprotunity to believe. Paul explains that, "a knowledge of the ransom will be testified to all in due time".-1 Timothy 2:2-6. AGAIN CHRIST GAVE HIS LIFE FOR 'ALL' Paul explains: "The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to be king over all, but all who will take God's gift of forgiveness and acquittal are kings of life because of this one man, Jesus Christ".-Romans 5:17-18. The apostle Paul emphasizes the largness of this number when he says that Jesus gave himself a ransom for "all"-that is, for the intire human race. This does NOT mean,of course,that the entire human race will be enternally saved as a result of the ransom, for it is mandatory that there be an individual acceptance of this of this provision of God's grace,in has been made for all. The apostle makes it clear that ALL who have received the Holy Spirit are ABLE to UNDERSTAND the precious thoughts of God's writtings written in his Word. ALL the Lord's people have the privilege of assisting one another in the study of the Bible, and EACH ONE has an INDIVIDUAL responsibility to "search the scriptures", and to hold fast ONLY to that which is found to be in FULL harmony with the Holy Word. The responsibility set forth in this injunction can NOT be delegated to or left in the hands of others. THE GOD OF LOVE Yes, a knowledge of the grace and love of God inspires us to reverence and love him.(Isaiah 29:13). We should delight to proclaim the love of God, and fear should NEVER be used to indue people to believe in him and in his beloved. God's people today, as in the past,are called to show forth praises, how better can we do this than by proclaiming the glorious Kingdom Gospel of God's love and grace! GOD ALONE CAN READ HEARTS God, and he ALONE can read the hearts of the people and know the extent to which each individual is responsible for his/her wrong doing. So while we leave the the work of judgment up to with God, let us proclaim the truth of God's love and grace far and wide!-Psalm 66:8;Isaiah 52:8. The grace and love of God toward his people, and toward ALL humankind, should inspire his people to render full obedience to him. However, obedience based on fear, tisk-tasking or minipulation or shaming is NOT pleasing to him. If we catch the inspiration of his love, we will rejoice that he has blessings for others besides ourselves, and will want to proclaim this heart-warming message to all humankind. We will want to tell the whole world about these good tidings of great joy which shall be to ALL people".-Luke 2:10. It will be after the people are awakened from death, as Paul indicates,that the glorious truth of the ransom and the manner in which it gives evidence of God's love will be "testified' to them. That will be the "due time" when the "sea will be converted to God. Satan, the great deceiver, will then be bound, and the knowledge of God will fill the earth.

"We need Liberal "televangelist" to come OUT with their faith." I agree. Accept they'd call a teleProgressive pastor. We 'NEED" a good speaker Progressive Christian on tv. "Heck, I recently found out Billy Graham is a registered Democrat. " "Billy GRaham even had one of his crusades at a MCC church. " Billy Graham is a very sincere man and I am sure he has helped many people. But I don;t concure with his conseravtive explaination on salvation. I will explain why in a new thread intield, "Billy graham's Take On Slavation." " I sometimes feel awkward referring to myself as a "progressive" Christian. " I don't. Not one bit. Infatc, I am very puzzeled as to WHY So many moderates and and some Progressives even 'WANT' or "wish" to indentify with the the very term "Evangelical" when they see what the term has come to mean. I myself surely do not wish to embrace the term "Evangelical" in terms of my Christianity

I think that is Progressive Christianity all 3 of these statemtns would be welcomed equally: 1. I could say that I believe that Jesus was a man who perfectly manifested God's attributes. =Liberal Christian and/or UU Christian. 2. I could say that I believe Jesus was a divine being, God's son. = (Progressive) bibical uniatarians 3. I could say that I believe that Jesus was God incarnate on earth. (Progressive) Trintarians. I believe that only #1 would truley be welcomed in Liberal Christian churches or UU Christian Churches. In Evangelical or fundamental branches of Protestnatism and catholicism...ONLY #3 (non-progressive) would be welcomed as members. And in JW or Church of God of Abraham faith or Christadelphians ONLY#2 (non-progressive) And I feel this is the plus of Progressive Christianity..that these other 3 can not offer. I have firends amoung all three..but unforuantly..many, if not the majority in return can not accept that fact that I DO accept all three withOUT making one or the other change to meet my own interpretattion of what is "orthodox". Actually i really don't believe there really is such thing as "orthodox"..not on this imprefect side of the Kingdom.

So you are saying that in your view their are these views on Salvation: 1) Arminians=universalism= everyone is saved. 2) Calvinists =Christ died for the elect. So which are you? I suggest a 3rd view.. 3) Conditionalism= Everyone is NOTY oddomatically saved...but EVERYONE gets a 'FAIR" chance if NOT in THIS life then the next. Billy Graham teaches that their is NO second chance after death. To me, this IS Calvinism. So I don;t concure with Graham on this. i condsider myself a conditionalist. "Regardless of which side of the Calvinism/Arminianism debate you fall on, Christ only died for those who would come to him. "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Question: Do YOU believe it's possible to "Come to Christ" even if you don;t know his name or pronounce Christ's name differently? I DO.

"Evangelicals must accept the consequences of their theology, either change it in order to improve it.." I think that the problem with Evangelical Protestantism and all fundamental versions of Christianity lies not on that fact that they teach that "Jesus died for everyone's son..._" But the problem lies in that- when they quote the key word in this phrase "Everyone"...their lies a contridiction in 'their' interpretation of what this means. The Evangelicals say that Christ died for everyone..but...then they have this sneaky way or turning around and saying only those who concure with 'their' interpretations of the Bible will actually benifit from this,,that is... be saved.

Destructive Charismatic Churches April 2002 By Rick Ross. By a former member of the movement I was once involved in a destructive Charismatic church for twelve years. My family and I left because of the behavior within that church, which became increasingly cult-like. For instance, our church was a strongly "prophetic" congregation. And when a "prophecy" came forth, it was considered the "word of the Lord," even if it didn't match up with the Scriptures. That put us in the frightening position of having to obey the prophecy, or consider ourselves as "opposing God." Being a committed Christian and having spent nearly all of my Christian life within the Charismatic movement, I now recognize that some leaders within the movement have the propensity to overextend their authority. And as an elder under such authority for five years, I was once bound by fear. It seemed that if I didn't participate in a variety of "prophetic manifestations," which regularly happened within our church, I was somehow missing "God's best." However, when I objectively investigated my church's methods and beliefs, I saw its error and regained my personal freedom. Specifically I began to read the bible without the aid of any church interpretive material. After more than a year of intensive research, from a variety of independent sources, my family and I were brought to a point of decision, which resulted in our "leaving the fold." The pain of that process was tremendous. After we left, not one person from our church visited us. The fear, which is engendered by the kind of manipulation we experienced, often locks people into a mindset that disregards common logic and even bypasses a simple heartfelt faith in the God of the bible. Instead, those involved will just "go with the flow." When I first looked seriously into my church's doctrines, I found that many of them had parallels with much criticized groups like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. The extreme teachings practiced by some churches within the Christian Charismatic movement have serious implications. Some of the particulars of these churches should be closely scrutinized. Consider the following: Extra-biblical Revelation. Much of our belief system was based upon supposed "words of the Lord," without supporting Scriptures to validate the teaching. Those who believed the "revelations," were in the inner circle. Those who did not, were frowned upon as somehow "spiritually immature." This kind of personal revelation seems to be becoming increasingly common within some extreme Charismatic groups. Any attempt to correct a leader/teacher involved with this type of extreme Charismatic church, often is met with stonewalling, excuses, or anger. They may say, "How dare you presume to question doctrine coming from the pulpit." Those who do are frequently labeled as in the "outer court" or "immature." For example, in my own experience with churches influenced by the Brownsville Revival and Toronto Blessing camps this actually led to the demonizing those who disagreed. I remember Pastor John Kilpatrick of Brownsville issuing a "prophetic" threat of destruction against Hank Hanegraaff, when he criticized Brownsville. Speical knowledge. Only for those who reach the higher "levels" of understanding. One of my pastors would not openly share his "knowledge" with just anyone. Instead, this was to be shared only with the enlightened, which really meant those who agreed with him. Unreasoning disregard for contrary evidence. Any evidence brought into the light that contradicted an experience, vision, prophecy, or doctrine, which supposedly came from God, was completely disregarded. People simply refuse to discuss the situation intelligently, react in anger, avoidance and/or fear. Fear. People become locked into accepting almost anything, because to question or disagree with the group's doctrine, was tantamount to questioning God. For example, when I left my church I found myself very afraid that God was angry with me and that I would lose His blessing. It was very difficult. One pastor I knew of a destructive Charismatic church told his flock, "If you question anything going on in this church, just watch out!" This fear-inducing admonition was preceded by his recitation of the account within Acts 5 about Ananias and Sapphira, who dropped dead after lying to the Lord. There are many other traits amongst some destructive churches, which mirror those found in cults, but those cited above will suffice for now. I have spoken with others who have left extreme Charismatic churches. They too have lost their church friends, support, experienced family conflicts, trauma and have been targeted by gossip. Some have even received death threats that were supposedly "words of the Lord." It is a miracle that any of these Charismatic causalities can still maintain their faith in Jesus Christ after all they have been through. But through my own experience I've learned, wolves clothed as shepherds, cannot invalidate the message or its true messenger. Please understand that there were many good times as well. This included church potlucks, fishing trips, praying for one another and helping each other through difficult times. But for all the love expressed during those years of faithfulness, it is both a source of pain and concern that our onetime church brethren are now afraid of us and wish no further close contact. We faithfully supported (our tithes and offerings to one church totaled approximately $25,000.00), promoted, and led others into a group that we now recognize was largely based upon a destructive and often heretical beliefs. The love of Christ, our purchase from sin on the cross by His death and resurrection, was certainly preached. But so many additions and personal interpretations were consistently interwoven within that simple message, the net result was often harmful and chaotic. Can a Charismatic or Pentecostal church be cultic? There are controversial preachers such as Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, who have certainly caused many faithful Christians to ask this troubling question. And what about movements like the "Toronto Blessing," the "Brownsville Revival" or the "River" movement, which was spawned by both? Are they in some ways cult-like? I have many friends still involved in these movements. And I fear and pray for them. At times I try to offer them helpful scriptural insights, if and when an opportunity presents itself. But it is hard to help those caught within such ideological snares and entwined by such groups and leaders. It has been a difficult road back to the basics of biblical Christianity from the chaos and confusion my family was once caught within. One of the things that has helped us the most, was realizing that "bible-based" cults and those who borrow from them, did not originate their beliefs. They merely copied from other sources and redefined teachings. The damage done by these groups notwithstanding, Jesus Christ is still the Savior, and His message remains unchanged. Destructive leaders and groups, may dim the truth but can't snuff out the Light. My family is still Pentecostal, but we avoid the maze and torment of aberrational teachings and/or pastoral manipulation. And we know that there are many good Pentecostal churches. They have helped us tremendously to get back to the truth of the Scriptures, and also guided us through the process of sorting out false doctrines, which have crept into many Christian churches. One thing we have definitely decided upon is this, we will follow no man with unquestioning obedience from now on. If what is being said from the pulpit, or even informally, does not match the biblical record, we will support neither the man nor the message.

The REAL Motivating Factor & Inspiration Behind The Zeal of ACM Point To Ponder Upon: Is It Not Curious How ACM Voices Concern Over The Fact The JW's Belief in Non-Members Getting Destoyed At Armageddon...When Fundamental and/Or Pentecostal Protestants Merely Replaces This Fear With Their Own Eternal HellFire & Getting "Left Behind" during Their 'Rapture'? The Fundamental & Pentecostal Protestants Claim That NRMs like JW's & Mormon Teach That They Alone Got Rights To Salvation...Ah Yeah...And as 'If' Fundamental Protestants Don't Make That Same Claim? The Fundamental and/or Pentecostal Protestants teach that spiritual understanding and rehabilitation MUST take place ON THIS (imperfect) SIDE of The kingdom... Instead of During The 1,000 year rein of Christ where there is said there is going to be: A Resurrection of BOTH the the just and unjust. That 'if' one dies BEFORE they are saved then they are INSTANTLY CONDEMED TO HELL FOREVER. Or if the 'Rapture' comes and they and not come to accept Jesus as their personal Savior then they will be "Left Behind." Hyprocrisy Displayed Amoung Fundamental & Pentacostal Protestants Claiming Concern Over JW's Fear Tactics of Armageddon Against Non Memebers The complete hyprocrisy lies in that the ACMs/The Fundamental and/or Pentecostal Protestants often make Jehovah's Witnesses their prime targets of attck claiming that the JW's often teach that all who fail to embrace the JW's take on the Bible will(... (A) Die at Armageddon and ( will cease to be all togethre, NEVER to be resurrected back to life again. Yet, ACMs/fundamental and Pentecostal Protestant teach that all who fail to embrace the Fundamental Protestant take on the Bible will (A)Get "Left Behind" during the 'rapture'( and/or will get tossed into hell forever. Do Fundamental/Pentecostal Protestants actually think that their threat teaching of hellfire and getting "Left Behind" is suppose to, some how, be LESS emotionally destructive and "cult-like", and some how 'better' than the JW's Armageddon???

That is also a good point.that is..that lot's a time if a group of people break off of a faith group in order to create what they feel is a more progressive answer to their former faith..then their former faiths often tag them "cults." ACM & The Doctrinal Issues If a Alternative Religious Group Reject 1 or More of The Following Fundamental Protestant Doctrines...Then The ACMs Say They Are A "Cult": Denies The Trinity Denies That Holy Spirit Is A Person And Says Instead That It Is God's Active Force * Claims Exclusive Rights To Salvation Denies The Bodily Resurrection Of Christ *Group Adds Extra Books To The Bible. Or Perfers a Certain Translation Because It Agrees More With the Groups Beliefs. * Devolopes Certain Interpretations Of Bible Passages: They Take Passgaes Out Of Context, Pick and Choose Certain Key Verses While Ignoring Others; Mistranslates Key Words. * Group Frequently Quotes Bible Passages About False Prophets Rising Up And Confuses Many Indeed 'THEE' #1 Reason why ACMs as well as Fundamental and Pentecostal Protestants tag NRMs "Cult" is merely on the ground that they refuse to embrace THEIR definition of 'The Trinity'. Now at this point you may be thinking: "Hey wait a minute... What does all these views on whether God is a trinity or whther Christ was resurrected like this or that,etc. have to do with ACMs claims of NRMs being emotionally demaging? Ah yeah, good point! Janja Lalich, an EXPERT on CULT Behavior says: "Cults, in my opinion, are about BEHAVIORS and NOT BELIEFS." Indeed, these prime favorite targets that ACMs/ Fundamental Proestants aim their attacks against: Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahia...Eatern Faiths and Liberal and Progressive christians.etc... are REALLY based on DOCTRINAL ISSUES and 'NOT' based on these groups being EMTIONALLY DESTRUCTIVE IN BEHAVIOR, as the ACMs often 'claim'. ACMs tag Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses,and Assembly of Yahweh as "Not Christian", and "Not bibical", "Cults"...and yet each of these groups continually proclaim that they DO embrace the Bible and Christ as Savior. But because they do NOT do it in the WAY that Fundamental Protestants find agreeable then there proclaimations fall on deaf ears. These claims #3,5,6 and about groups being indentify as "cults" because they make claims that they alone have the copy rights to God and salvation all these "characteristics of a 'Cult' "... that ACMs tag on JWs and Mormons also fit THEM!

Rick Ross has also witten extenstively on other fundamental Protestant groups such Calvary Chapel, Assembly of God, and Vineyard Christian Fellowship. When The Word "Cult" As Merely A Means Of Theolically Getting Even With Faith Groups You Don't Like Or Agree With I would like you to read the following quotes from the article:Reconceptualizing the Word "Cult" by Jon Trott [first published in Cornerstone,Jesus People USA Issue 122] "The term “cult” has become a catchall word used, as one cynic put it , against any organized group one happens not to like." THE WORD AS A WEAPON "There are a few errors we Evangelicals continue to make regarding NRMs. The first and most glaring error we make is the often unspoken assumption that we have the entire truth and NRM members are lost in error. History teaches us of many evils committed by self-proclaimed Christians with a corner on “the truth.” Humility is in order." "Christians should show profound respect for others’ spiritual journeys, realizing that in fact the others may be journeying toward Christian belief. We are Christ’s ambassadors, and as such it is our duty to present the great news and, by example, show forth His love." Should we tag peaceful alternative religious groups like Hare Krishans and Bahia long side dangerous killer REAL "cults" like Jim Jones?!? "Again, the word “cult” has become the property of mass media, and like the word “######” some decades ago, is used to completely dismiss those who don’t fit into the majority’s preconceived ideal of “American.” We’ve got to face it: the NRMs often bear little resemblance one to another, but like the Anglo-American viewing a person of color, we’re tempted to say “they’re all the same.” Christians should be on the forefront of defending the legal and social rights of even the smallest and oddest religious groups." "The NRMs often make specific and exclusive claims regarding the nature of God, salvation, and other aspects of reality." And does not Fundamental 'Born Again' Protestants? Evangelical Protestants tagged Jehovah's Witnesses a "cult" because JW's claim that all who dare disagree with their take on the Bible will not get into paradise. Yet Evangelical Fundamental and/or Pentacostal Protestants claim all who dare disagree with their take on things be "left behind" and/or tossed into hell forever. If such exclusive claims to salvation are the marks that call for one to be marked "Cult"..then certainly such Evangelical fundamental Protestants should add themselves to the list! "Joining an unorthodox [in both the Evangelical Protestant and the majority of society's views) group may in fact be a sign of coming awake, not of going to sleep. I’m not suggesting that joining the Moonies will lead one to salvation; it may lead to no change in one’s habits, or it may lead to a lifelong adherence to Moon’s false Messiahship. But as sociological studies have shown, the majority of those joining his Unification Church do not remain there. Do they stay awake, or do they go back to sleep? Did any Christians they met along their journey’s path treat them as fellow sojourners rather than brainwashed idiots?" "Yet what of the gentle Baha'i faith, with its martyred leader and beautiful emphasis on reconciliation between races, peoples, and religions? A critique of Baha'i will certainly require our praise as well as our disagreement on key issues of God's identity and the nature of salvation." "The New Age movement (host to a variety of NRMs as well as more mainstream groups) exhibits concern over ecology and the caretaking of our planet; this echoes scriptural standards despite their disavowal of personal sin and God's sacrifice for that sin." " Likewise, our discussions of Jehovah's Witnesses rarely, if ever, touch on the fact that the Nazis murdered many of them. To know these things takes commitment to learn about the world of ideas and assumptions a Bahaist or Jehovah's Witness lives in; easier is the quick-stick label, "cult ." Many extremist branches of Fundamental Protestant try to prey on XJWs, X-Mormons and other faith groups that their community deems "unorthodox." Sometimes their claims are true and other times they are not. But underneath their surface image of wanting reach out to those who were spiritually abused in JW or Mormons, etc., is a hidden agenda, and that agenda is to replace the former JW or Mormom past brand of fundamentalism with 'their' own brand of fundamentalism. Thus they may go from the frying pan into the fire. The frying pan being JW's Aramegeddon threats to fundamental Protestant's hellfire. However, the AMCs don't just go after the non-Protestant fundamental faith groups they don't like. They also Unitarian Universalists, Bahias and sometimes even their own more liberal or moderate peers, such as United Methodists, tagging them as a "cults." The fellowing is a list of resources I have pulled together on the ACMs and their roots, as well as non-fundamental resources who research and study Alternative Religions of America. "Alternative Religions,ARs are what they call such religions that they see as not dangerous instead of cults. In contrast to the AMCs, such researchers have NO hidden agendas to spread a religious fundamentalist propagenda.

Yes! LibChristian and/or Oak both of which are the modertors on the Progressive Christianity forum on Beliefnet. If you go there..you can e-mail them.

The Important thing I have gathered from the book as well as the Christians For Bibical Equality Network: www.cbeinternational.org/ Is that there are many 'different' meanins of the word HEAD in Greek...just as their are for example 7 'different' meanings of the word LOVE in greek. He brings focuses on the '2' main meanings of the word HEAD in Greek as being ARCHE..which means chief and ruler and KEPHALE which basically means to hold a self-sacrificing mentality. He brings out that BOTH ARCHE AND KEPHALE are used in Scriptures to discribe Christ..but that ONLY KEPHALE is used towards men..humans..but that the fundamental churches have purposely taken the liberites to CHANGE it so that all the Scriptures talking about man's relationship towards suddenly is CHANGE to also include the meaning ARCHE rather than just KEPHALE..as it originally was.

What Paul Really Said About Women is simply outstanding. As The Christians for Bibical Equality have brought out, much of the Scriptures that are yanked out of context to try and justify sexism towards women in the so-called name of the Bible are simply the very same Scriptures yanked in the South back in the 1800's to try and justfiy whites treating blacks and Native Americans as inferior. Women women do not want to be doormats but their church or organized religion frightens them into believing they must put up with being treated inferior in order to be pleasing to the Lord, Jesus Christ or Jehovah. This book shows how in much the same way the word "Hell" was translated where actually the meaning "Humankind's common grave" should have been...so too have translations taken the liberity to translate the Gree word "ARCHE" which means "Chief", "Leader" and "Ruler"/ "Have authorty over" and thus in English "HEAD"..where instead the Greek word "KEPHALE" which actaully denotes NO authority or superiorty in rank above another at all..but rather means "Self-less giver", "One who willing risks his life for others". After being enlightened on this, all should consider extanding the Golden Rule to ALL..meaning not just all races..but BOTH sexes, the animals and the earth itself. This book is only about $9