What is the "Word of God"?

[thormas]

13 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Have you ever had a piece of intuition or insight that rouse up in you that you felt was or might be from God? Not something overwhelming or over powering but something that you felt was truly inspiring. Maybe it had to do with a question you'd been asking yourself for a long time or it had to do with something you'd been thinking about for a while. 

I think this sort of thing can happen to anyone, though we might have to tune into it and be open to it. It certainly did happen to the earliest Christians. It seems to be that these are the sort of things they were talking about when they met in their churches/gatherings, they didn't have a New Testament, but they were gathering and talking about something. 

Sorry, I still see intuition or insight 'about something' that has already been presented or experienced before and one has an intuition about it or develops an insight into it. I don't identify either as God;  I simply don't think God works this way. If I have a question it is based in my experience and I am reading, discussing or reflecting on it and then comes the 'Aha" moment. As you have even said, the early Christians were "gathering and talking about something" they experience or were reflecting on and they they got it. A very human thing to do. 

[JosephM]

16 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Have you ever had a piece of intuition or insight that rouse up in you that you felt was or might be from God? Not something overwhelming or over powering but something that you felt was truly inspiring. Maybe it had to do with a question you'd been asking yourself for a long time or it had to do with something you'd been thinking about for a while. 

I think this sort of thing can happen to anyone, though we might have to tune into it and be open to it. It certainly did happen to the earliest Christians. It seems to be that these are the sort of things they were talking about when they met in their churches/gatherings, they didn't have a New Testament, but they were gathering and talking about something. 

Absolutely without a doubt. I also think that as you indicated , one needs to be open to it and consciously very present.

[Elen1107]

22 hours ago, JosephM said:

Absolutely without a doubt. I also think that as you indicated , one needs to be open to it and consciously very present.

Well, that's nice! It's nice to see people agreeing about something at least sometime,... though I know we can't all of the time, that would be ridiculous too.

I agree that there is a sense of being "present" that one needs to be able to do this. One needs to come down to the present in order to tune out "the world" and tune in the higher presence(s). That's presences with an 's' if one includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit along with God.

[Elen1107]

On 8/8/2020 at 10:58 AM, thormas said:

Sorry, I still see intuition or insight 'about something' that has already been presented or experienced before and one has an intuition about it or develops an insight into it. I don't identify either as God;  I simply don't think God works this way. If I have a question it is based in my experience and I am reading, discussing or reflecting on it and then comes the 'Aha" moment. As you have even said, the early Christians were "gathering and talking about something" they experience or were reflecting on and they they got it. A very human thing to do. 

How much comes from prior experiences and how much comes from direct and present experiences is a big question.

Again, I think that you have been very lucky in that a lot has been given to you since the beginning. This isn't true for everyone. Some people have to tune out or put aside everything they have been taught since their beginnings, and have to connect to something else, something better, directly, with no intermediary and no external help. Then there's everyone in between these two extremes.

People can do both. People can have insights and intuition based on what other people have said or written or communicated. The same people can have these insights come directly from the Higher Power/God and or JC or the HS. I don't think that the first Christians were just "reflecting" on what they had experienced. They were also having new insights and ideas that they were sharing in the congregations/churches.

Do you ever ask yourself what you think? You've read this/these scholars and these theologians on this or that subject. Perhaps you choose your answer based on which you think is the best scholar or thinker. But do you ever ask yourself what you really think, despite what these other people are thinking or saying?

I hope that this doesn't come across as a put down or a slight or something. I think you are quite capable of thinking and of coming to well thought out conclusions and answers for yourself. Maybe I think you are a bit used to going to or turning to someone else for answers, simply because you have been given so much in the past and during your lifetime. That's a good thing, not a bad thing,...  but so is looking for and finding answers and insights for oneself.

[thormas]

Prior experience is simply a direct and present experience of the past - the only difference is that I don't buy that we have a 'direct' experience of God. 

Any 'luck' was that I was born to good people and experienced enough good people throughout my life who 'gave me God' - through them I was called, challenged,  judged and loved and God was 'bodied' forth in and through them. 

"People can do both"...........on this we simply disagree. It sounds like a supernatural theism which I don't buy. The disciples were reflecting on the execution of their friend and leader, they were feeling the loss, confused and scared. They were also, as is very human, reflecting on the 'good times' and remembering 'everything' about Jesus. They were also searching and reflecting on their own scriptures to help them comprehend all of this.......and eventually, sometime after the execution.........the 'AHA' moment: he is Alive, he is exalted by God, he is Lord! 

________________________________

I am always thinking and always asking - this is a form of prayer for me. Again we don't know one another:  I never buy, completely or immediately, what I read - I think about it, I reflect on it in comparison and contrast to others I have read, I reflect on it based on my experience with others and with what I have previously come to believe - yet remain open to more. Suffice to say, I always ask myself, consider and reconsider what I believe.

I am curious enough that I have no problem or fear in reading, hearing and considering what others (scholars and 'ordinary' people) have said or written. And, I have made the time to read widely on this in order to know and reflect on what others think and believe. Philosophy and theology are what I decided to study in college and grad school and what I decided to teach and thereafter continued to study when I left teaching and entered business. You did make me laugh though since I learned first to not believe everything I heard (or read) from others but to trust what I knew while being open to those others. 

You appear to separate what one learns from others and what one learns from looking to oneself - I don't make such a separation and feel it is an artificial. Both take place in each individual.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by thormas

[Elen1107]

On 8/10/2020 at 8:12 AM, thormas said:

Prior experience is simply a direct and present experience of the past - the only difference is that I don't buy that we have a 'direct' experience of God. 

Any 'luck' was that I was born to good people and experienced enough good people throughout my life who 'gave me God' - through them I was called, challenged,  judged and loved and God was 'bodied' forth in and through them. 

"People can do both"...........on this we simply disagree. It sounds like a supernatural theism which I don't buy.

To me, "supernatural theism" is a man with a white beard and long robes floating around in the sky, who we can talk to so we get the Christmas present we want or something.

Perhaps we are going to end up just disagreeing on this/these ideas.

Still, and I hope that I don't sound like too much of an older lady or something in saying this, I just can't help but want to "challenge" you to experience God directly. Put away all the books and the words for just a bit and just experience God's Spirit, or Christ's Spirit or the Holy Spirit directly. In your emotions, in your mind, in your spirit, however it works best for you.

Like I said, I hope I don't sound too much like an old lady. 

I can't help but feel like if anyone can do it, you can, (or something quite close to that).

[thormas]

1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

To me, "supernatural theism" is a man with a white beard and long robes floating around in the sky, who we can talk to so we get the Christmas present we want or something.

Perhaps we are going to end up just disagreeing on this/these ideas.

Still, and I hope that I don't sound like too much of an older lady or something in saying this, I just can't help but want to "challenge" you to experience God directly. Put away all the books and the words for just a bit and just experience God's Spirit, or Christ's Spirit or the Holy Spirit directly. In your emotions, in your mind, in your spirit, however it works best for you.

Like I said, I hope I don't sound too much like an old lady. 

I can't help but feel like if anyone can do it, you can, (or something quite close to that).

And to me, supernatural theism is something more than that caricature. 

Again, we don't know one another and you have no real idea of my experience. I believe the 'experience' of God is something other, something different than you describe. 

Books are people, some still with us, some long gone (such as the writers of the NT); to put aways books is to put away these people: their lives, their insights, their contributions, their words, their spirit. Simply, some us won't commit such a mistake. 

_________________________

God  is 'present' to us as Word and Spirit: the Word is spoken through others and the Spirit (Love) is given through others. This is in-carnation.

In Christianity, God is 'present' as Word, spoken in and through Jesus who is called 'Word of God.' 

God is not experienced directly (no one knows the Father); God is experienced in his Word, Jesus, (except through the Son). Jesus is the epitome of in-carnation.

 

And no worries, you do not sound like an old lady just a caring human being.

Edited August 12, 2020 by thormas

[Burl]

Conscious experience of God happens.  This is the mystery of the cross; the intersection of the horizontal physical and the vertical metaphysical.

[JosephM]

30 minutes ago, thormas said:

God is not experienced directly (no one knows the Father); God is experienced in his Word, Jesus, (except through the Son). Jesus is the epitome of in-carnation.

Not to argue the point but my experience would also without a doubt disagree with your statement here and be more in line with what elen said.

[thormas]

1 hour ago, JosephM said:

Not to argue the point but my experience would also without a doubt disagree with your statement here and be more in line with what elen said.

More than fine as we each describe the experience of God differently - what matters most is if, how and to what degree the experience impacts our way one in the world.

I should add that I don't belief that Jesus is the only incarnation of God as I was speaking about a Christian belief. There is one Way but many paths along that way.

 

 

[thormas]

1 hour ago, Burl said:

Conscious experience of God happens.  This is the mystery of the cross; the intersection of the horizontal physical and the vertical metaphysical.

I get that however my perspective is that we experience God in his Word and Spirit; God-in-himself or the Godhead is 'hidden.' As creation (Genesis) and salvation (Christ) are through the Word, that same Word resounds in everyday life calling us to relationship with God, calling us to 'know' God.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by thormas

[Elen1107]

5 hours ago, thormas said:

And to me, supernatural theism is something more than that caricature. 

Again, we don't know one another and you have no real idea of my experience. I believe the 'experience' of God is something other, something different than you describe. 

Books are people, some still with us, some long gone (such as the writers of the NT); to put aways books is to put away these people: their lives, their insights, their contributions, their words, their spirit. Simply, some us won't commit such a mistake. 

_________________________

God  is 'present' to us as Word and Spirit: the Word is spoken through others and the Spirit (Love) is given through others. This is in-carnation.

In Christianity, God is 'present' as Word, spoken in and through Jesus who is called 'Word of God.' 

God is not experienced directly (no one knows the Father); God is experienced in his Word, Jesus, (except through the Son). Jesus is the epitome of in-carnation.

 

And no worries, you do not sound like an old lady just a caring human being.

I'm not saying put away the books forever, or even a full day. I'm just saying put them away for an hour or two, or maybe a half a day, what ever works best for a given individual.

I think that the word 'Word' in referring to Jesus means more than just 'words' or 'word'. One gets into the translation of the the Greek word Logos here. I myself tend to think that the word Logos stands for Jesus's full identity and being.

Don't get me wrong, I love words, perhaps too much. I wish we had the words for everything, I really love things perfectly spelled out in words, I really, really do. But I have some real doubts that we can really have this. I often feel that even the word 'God' is hopelessly inadequate, but it's the only word we have given the language. 

Yeah, perhaps that is true, one cannot experience God except through the Son. But if the Son brings one to experiencing God directly, then that would also follow and be true.

I think in this world we get what we get. Some of us experience the Spirit of Christ more directly, for some of us it's God's Spirit or the spirit of the Holy Spirit. For some it's a mixture of all three, depending on what kind of day we are having or what our focus at a given time is. Also perhaps sometimes they are some what indistinguishable, which is ok too. What is important is that we are staying connected to something/one truly positive, true and living and not all the false positives that we get and see in this "worldly life".

Thanks for reading. Don't sell yourself short, or others either. I believe the experience does exist, and one doesn't need to be a fancy, highly endowed saint or nothing, this can happen to regular folks and children. I'm thinking that it often does but goes unrecognized or dismissed as something that doesn't really relate to the outer world, so people say it doesn't exist or is just made up.

Thanks again for reading

[Elen1107]

5 hours ago, Burl said:

Conscious experience of God happens.  This is the mystery of the cross; the intersection of the horizontal physical and the vertical metaphysical.

It's nice to have some agreement on this and on some of this/these things.

I don't ness. see it as "the mystery of the cross", however I really like what you said about "the intersection of the horizontal physical and the vertical metaphysical". I'm kind of more understanding it as the intersection of the eternal (vertical) and time {lines} (horizontal).

Do you think you could put your conscious experience of God into words? Or that anyone can?

Thanks

[Elen1107]

6 hours ago, thormas said:

God  is 'present' to us as Word and Spirit: the Word is spoken through others and the Spirit (Love) is given through others. This is in-carnation.

 

I don't know if I myself would call this "in-carnation". I would perhaps instead call it reflecting God or showing God's Love through ourselves and our own little beings.

-------------------------------------

Just came across these verses from Mathew 11:

The Father Revealed in the Son

25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

I'm thinking that what is important here and what we are talking about is in 27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

So, there are those that the Son chooses to reveal the Father to, and therefor there are those who have a true experience of God.

I just c&p-ed the other verses surrounding 27 cause I really liked them and thought they were real nice. What I'm really trying to communicate is what it says in verse 27.

Thanks for reading again

[thormas]

6 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I don't know if I myself would call this "in-carnation". I would perhaps instead call it reflecting God or showing God's Love through ourselves and our own little beings.

I use the word Incarnation: a word that is typically mis-understood but a word that, properly understood, captures the intimacy of God in man. Simply reflecting or showing God's love misses something:  we are the body of God, we are doing God (Spong's idea of God as a verb). It is literally in us that God or Love is bodied forth in the world; it is in our flesh that God 'touches' others. Christianity is built on the incarnating of God and we know 'God' through the incarnated one. The Father does not come directly but through the Son.

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by thormas

[thormas]

8 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I'm not saying put away the books forever, or even a full day. I'm just saying put them away for an hour or two, or maybe a half a day, what ever works best for a given individual.

I'll simply repeat: "Books are people, some still with us, some long gone (such as the writers of the NT); to put aways books is to put away these people: their lives, their insights, their contributions, their words, their spirit."  

Oddly, you seem to assume that one who reads does so 24/7. You seem to assume that one who reads does nothing else, has no time to reflect and 'experience.' This is as mistaken as me assuming you don't read enough and you really have to do it more - "not forever, or even a full day"  but maybe "for an hour or two, or maybe even a half of day, whatever  works"- just read more. But of course, I don't. 

 

7 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

So, there are those that the Son chooses to reveal the Father to, and therefor there are those who have a true experience of God.

As you have just acknowledged, the 'true experience' of God/Father is in and through the Word - not a direct experience of the Father. It is the Word that reveals the Father and that same Word resounds in men and women in ordinary, everyday life.

 

I also could not honor or follow a God who chooses to reveal himself only to a certain 'those' and "therefore there are those who have a true experience of God." Such a God is a bit too choosy for me. I think God's word reveals God to all.

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by thormas

[thormas]

8 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Don't sell yourself short......................

or others either. I believe the experience does exist, and one doesn't need to be a fancy, highly endowed saint or nothing, this can happen to regular folks and children. I'm thinking that it often does but goes unrecognized or dismissed as something that doesn't really relate to the outer world, so people say it doesn't exist or is just made up.

I don't!

Many times it is made up and/or doesn't exist: how many TV preachers have we heard who told us they just spoke to God Himself and God wants you people watching this show to give money? How many others have said they see or experience God and they are actually sick human beings with medical conditions? How many have said that they know (from personal experience) that God is on their side and then wreak havoc in the world? How many are desperate and simply want to feel special if only for a moment? How many speak of their experience but do not act like their God in the world?

So of course some people say it doesn't exist or is just made up...........

 

And others of us simply disagree that God works this way. 

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by thormas

[Burl]

8 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

It's nice to have some agreement on this and on some of this/these things.

I don't ness. see it as "the mystery of the cross", however I really like what you said about "the intersection of the horizontal physical and the vertical metaphysical". I'm kind of more understanding it as the intersection of the eternal (vertical) and time {lines} (horizontal).

Do you think you could put your conscious experience of God into words? Or that anyone can?

Thanks

I can’t but Merton, Augustine, Thomas á Kempis, Rumi, and others have.

[Elen1107]

8 hours ago, Burl said:

I can’t but Merton, Augustine, Thomas á Kempis, Rumi, and others have.

Do you have any quotes or parts that you can remember about how any of these people put their conscious experience of God into words?

It sounds interesting. It seems that I've read some of this, at least by Augustine, but right now I can't remember what I've read.

If you have any recollections let me know. Thanks

[Elen1107]

10 hours ago, thormas said:

I use the word Incarnation: a word that is typically mis-understood but a word that, properly understood, captures the intimacy of God in man. Simply reflecting or showing God's love misses something:  we are the body of God, we are doing God (Spong's idea of God as a verb). It is literally in us that God or Love is bodied forth in the world; it is in our flesh that God 'touches' others. Christianity is built on the incarnating of God and we know 'God' through the incarnated one. The Father does not come directly but through the Son.

 

I agree with what you are saying, but I think that God also comes to us directly, though it is the Son that enables this opportunity to happen. One can still have a direct experience of God.

Here's one of the places where I disagree with Spong. I think that God is both a noun and a verb and so much more. Perhaps we don't really have a term like noun or verb that adequately or completely describes God.

9 hours ago, thormas said:

'll simply repeat: "Books are people, some still with us, some long gone (such as the writers of the NT); to put aways books is to put away these people: their lives, their insights, their contributions, their words, their spirit."  

Oddly, you seem to assume that one who reads does so 24/7. You seem to assume that one who reads does nothing else, has no time to reflect and 'experience.' This is as mistaken as me assuming you don't read enough and you really have to do it more - "not forever, or even a full day"  but maybe "for an hour or two, or maybe even a half of day, whatever  works"- just read more. But of course, I don't. 

 

That would be like my saying that experiences that come through words and books are not legitimate and that they don't count. That they don't happen and that the only real experiences are when  one experiences God directly. Which I don't and haven't.

9 hours ago, thormas said:

As you have just acknowledged, the 'true experience' of God/Father is in and through the Word - not a direct experience of the Father. It is the Word that reveals the Father and that same Word resounds in men and women in ordinary, everyday life.

 

I also could not honor or follow a God who chooses to reveal himself only to a certain 'those' and "therefore there are those who have a true experience of God." Such a God is a bit too choosy for me. I think God's word reveals God to all.

 

Or like God reveals Emself only to people through words, to people who can read, or who have good people to show them the way and show God to them.

That would be a "choosy" idea of God also

8 hours ago, thormas said:

Many times it is made up and/or doesn't exist: how many TV preachers have we heard who told us they just spoke to God Himself and God wants you people watching this show to give money? How many others have said they see or experience God and they are actually sick human beings with medical conditions? How many have said that they know (from personal experience) that God is on their side and then wreak havoc in the world? How many are desperate and simply want to feel special if only for a moment? How many speak of their experience but do not act like their God in the world?

So of course some people say it doesn't exist or is just made up...........

 

And others of us simply disagree that God works this way. 

The instances you mention do seem to be about messed up people.

Still people do experience God and they are not messed up.

They are not asking you to give them money, or acclaim, or think they are some kind of different and extra special.

However, we are ALL special and even extra special, and God can help us feel this and know this. (we are just not any more special than anyone else)

[Burl]

38 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

Do you have any quotes or parts that you can remember about how any of these people put their conscious experience of God into words?

It sounds interesting. It seems that I've read some of this, at least by Augustine, but right now I can't remember what I've read.

If you have any recollections let me know. Thanks

Conversion of St. Augustine

April 24

Augustine's life as a young man was characterized by loose living and a search for answers to life's basic questions.

He would follow various philosophers, only to become disillusioned with their teachings. For nine years he was associated with the Manichean sect. But he gradually became aware that Manicheism was unable to provide sastisfactory answers to his probing questions.

At this time, Augustine was teaching rhetoric in Milan. He went to hear the preaching of Saint Ambrose, the Bishop of Milan. At first he went only to hear Ambrose's eloquent style of speaking. But the Bishop's preaching led Augustine to a new understanding of the Bible and the Christian Faith.

Some time in the year 386, Augustine and his friend Alypius were spending time in Milan. While outdoors, Augustine heard the voice of a child singing a song, the words of which were, "Pick it up and read it. Pick it up and read it." He thought at first that the song was related to some kind of children's game, but could not remember ever having heard such a song before.

Then, realizing that this song might be a command from God to open and read the Scriptures, he located a Bible, picked it up, opened it and read the first passage he saw. It was from the Letter of Paul to the Romans. Augustine read:

Not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual excess and lust, not in quarreling and jealousy. Rather, put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh. --Romans 13: 13-14

Reading this scripture, Augustine felt as if his heart were flooded with light. He turned totally from his life of sin. He was Baptized by Ambrose during the Easter Vigil April 24, 387. His friend Alypius and his son Adeodatus were Baptized at the same time.

Later, reflecting on this experience, Augustine wrote his famous prayer: You have made us for yourself, Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you. He went on to become a powerful influence on the spirituality and theology of the Christian Church.
 

https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine

[Elen1107]

12 minutes ago, Burl said:

Conversion of St. Augustine

April 24

Augustine's life as a young man was characterized by loose living and a search for answers to life's basic questions.

He would follow various philosophers, only to become disillusioned with their teachings. For nine years he was associated with the Manichean sect. But he gradually became aware that Manicheism was unable to provide sastisfactory answers to his probing questions.

At this time, Augustine was teaching rhetoric in Milan. He went to hear the preaching of Saint Ambrose, the Bishop of Milan. At first he went only to hear Ambrose's eloquent style of speaking. But the Bishop's preaching led Augustine to a new understanding of the Bible and the Christian Faith.

Some time in the year 386, Augustine and his friend Alypius were spending time in Milan. While outdoors, Augustine heard the voice of a child singing a song, the words of which were, "Pick it up and read it. Pick it up and read it." He thought at first that the song was related to some kind of children's game, but could not remember ever having heard such a song before.

Then, realizing that this song might be a command from God to open and read the Scriptures, he located a Bible, picked it up, opened it and read the first passage he saw. It was from the Letter of Paul to the Romans. Augustine read:

Not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual excess and lust, not in quarreling and jealousy. Rather, put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh. --Romans 13: 13-14

Reading this scripture, Augustine felt as if his heart were flooded with light. He turned totally from his life of sin. He was Baptized by Ambrose during the Easter Vigil April 24, 387. His friend Alypius and his son Adeodatus were Baptized at the same time.

Later, reflecting on this experience, Augustine wrote his famous prayer: You have made us for yourself, Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you. He went on to become a powerful influence on the spirituality and theology of the Christian Church.
 

https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine

Thanks

[thormas]

So Augustine had a conscious experience of God - in a book 😋

[thormas]

1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

I agree with what you are saying, but I think that God also comes to us directly, though it is the Son that enables this opportunity to happen. One can still have a direct experience of God.

Here's one of the places where I disagree with Spong. I think that God is both a noun and a verb and so much more. Perhaps we don't really have a term like noun or verb that adequately or completely describes God.

Just to push here a bit, you said God comes to us directly but it is the Son that enables this to happen...................the Son is the Word, which goes to my point.

 

I think God is neither but I do like Spong's idea of a verb. The Eastern Fathers spoke of the divinization of man and Spong's idea helps: when man 'does God' i.e. when man does Love he is humanity doing divinity and it is in the doing of divinity that man/woman becomes 'divine' or 'one with God.' 

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by thormas

[Elen1107]

1 hour ago, thormas said:

So Augustine had a conscious experience of God - in a book 😋

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Do you think that any of these people ^ have a conscious experience of God - with or without a book?  🙂