What is the "Word of God"?

[thormas]

1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Do you think that any of these people ^ have a conscious experience of God - with or without a book?  🙂 

Depends what is meant by see God and when - in the Kingdom?

 

I thought conscious experience of God was your phrase??

[thormas]

19 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Do you think that any of these people ^ have a conscious experience of God - with or without a book?  🙂 

only with a book😷

[Elen1107]

19 hours ago, thormas said:

Depends what is meant by see God and when - in the Kingdom?

 

I thought conscious experience of God was your phrase??

Don't know whose phrase it is. We've all been using it.

1 hour ago, thormas said:

only with a book😷

Funny that's not what JC said when he said that,... "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. . . but only with a book",... no, I think someone's been adding something.

I've been encountering some Greek Orthodox speakers online that do say that we all do or can experience God directly, but it's nothing I'd want to post. A lot of what they say is good, but then there's the orthodox side that is too heavy for me.

Can I ask you, do you experience God's love for you directly, or through other people, or both? & Would you say that only one or the other is truly valid?

[thormas]

1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

Don't know whose phrase it is. We've all been using it.

Funny that's not what JC said when he said that,... "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. . . but only with a book",... no, I think someone's been adding something.

I've been encountering some Greek Orthodox speakers online that do say that we all do or can experience God directly, but it's nothing I'd want to post. A lot of what they say is good, but then there's the orthodox side that is too heavy for me.

Can I ask you, do you experience God's love for you directly, or through other people, or both? & Would you say that only one or the other is truly valid?

Think I got it from you.

Well if he said that there might not have been a book but there was a person and a word spoken - which once again goes to my point: not 'direct' from God but in and through others.

_______________

As for God: in and through others is one and the same God.

I simply think that given what direct means, it is theism revisited and speaks of a supernatural God bypassing the natural for a miraculous one-on-one with a person. Simply don't think that is how God works.

[JosephM]

2 hours ago, thormas said:

only with a book😷

 ^{1 John 2:27}As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Even the book disagrees with you!

[Elen1107]

8 minutes ago, thormas said:

Think I got it from you.

Well if he said that there might not have been a book but there was a person and a word spoken - which once again goes to my point: not 'direct' from God but in and through others.

_______________

As for God: in and through others is one and the same God.

I simply think that given what direct means, it is theism revisited and speaks of a supernatural God bypassing the natural for a miraculous one-on-one with a person. Simply don't think that is how God works.

I'm thinking I might have gotten it from Burl

So if a person just had a pure heart but they never heard what Jesus said about it, then, they would never have seen God. It only works if someone has heard someone talk about it first?

--------------------------------

If a person never was shown God's love from other people, or never read about it in a book or something, then they can never know or experience God's love. Is that what you are saying?

[thormas]

Just now, JosephM said:

 ^{1 John 2:27}As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Even the book disagrees with you!

You do realize that the laugh face shows that I was joking with Elen, right?

____________________

Although it show be pointed out that it is a book that is telling us we need no one to teach us even as the book teaches that to us 😾

[Elen1107]

5 minutes ago, thormas said:

You do realize that the laugh face shows that I was joking with Elen, right?

____________________

Although it show be pointed out that it is a book that is telling us we need no one to teach us even as the book teaches that to us 😾

Yes I do realize that the laugh face meant you were joking. I just wanted to complete the conversation and get to the heart or the bottom of the issue.

So the book itself is telling us we don't need a book. Do we need a book to tell us that, or can anyone anywhere figure it out on their own. . .

[Elen1107]

16 minutes ago, JosephM said:

 ^{1 John 2:27}As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Even the book disagrees with you!

Great verse!

I've always liked the one from Paul, "The word of God is in your mind and on your lips" 

[thormas]

2 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

So if a person just had a pure heart but they never heard what Jesus said about it, then, they would never have seen God. It only works if someone has heard someone talk about it first?

Not at all for Jesus is the epitome of the embodiment in Christianity but he is not the only incarnation of God.The Way is one yet there are many paths that share the Way. 

And no one has to talk about it: God is present in the words a mother uses to help her child to grow, that a stranger uses to care for another, that a friend uses when he speaks a hard truth to his friend, that a lover uses to console and care for her love, and on and on. It is God speaking in and through us that enables us to grow into our humanity (and thus our divinity). God need never be mentioned: God is ever-present empowering us even if we never know him - even if we  never know he is Emmanuel (God with us)

14 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

If a person never was shown God's love from other people, or never read about it in a book or something, then they can never know or experience God's love. Is that what you are saying?

It is not that we have to be shown God's love but, rather, that the God who is Love reaches us: in nature, in a song, in a movie, in a TV show, in a book, in a stranger, in a new, budding friendship. Even if one never knows it is God who calls and loves - God still does call and love and can reach the person.

However you touch on a point of utmost urgency: we, each of us, carries and brings God to the world; this is the Grace that is God embodied (even unknowingly) in man/woman. We are the ones who can create with God, we are the ones who redeem/save/heal with God - we are essential, we are the co-creators - and if we do not do it - how is God able to touch another human being?

One may never hear of God or know God yet this does not mean that God is not 'with them' empowering them to overcome their circumstances and grow into their humanity, grow into a child of the Father who turns and empowers other and the world. 

[thormas]

22 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

So the book itself is telling us we don't need a book. Do we need a book to tell us that, or can anyone anywhere figure it out on their own. . .

How would a person figure that out, figure anything out, learn or know anything without others be they found in a person or a person who speaks to us in a book, or song, or play, or movie, etc.? It seems we figure things out once we have something about which to reflect and wrestle with or fret about and then, sometimes, comes the Aha! moment. 

[Elen1107]

12 minutes ago, thormas said:

And no one has to talk about it: God is present in the words a mother uses to help her child to grow, that a stranger uses to care for another, that a friend uses when he speaks a hard truth to his friend, that a lover uses to console and care for her love, and on and on. It is God speaking in and through us that enables us to grow into our humanity (and thus our divinity). God need never be mentioned: God is ever-present empowering us even if we never know him - even if we  never know he is Emmanuel (God with us)

 

But what if a person has never experienced any of these things?

13 minutes ago, thormas said:

It is not that we have to be shown God's love but, rather, that the God who is Love reaches us: in nature, in a song, in a movie, in a TV show, in a book, in a stranger, in a new, budding friendship. Even if one never knows it is God who calls and loves - God still does call and love and can reach the person.

However you touch on a point of utmost urgency: we, each of us, carries and brings God to the world; this is the Grace that is God embodied (even unknowingly) in man/woman. We are the ones who can create with God, we are the ones who redeem/save/heal with God - we are essential, we are the co-creators - and if we do not do it - how is God able to touch another human being?

What if a person or people have been hurt so badly that they can't let any of these things in. They simply can't connect with them.

What if all a person has is God's love given to them directly and through the direct experience of God. What if that is all they have? What if that is the only 'thing' they can trust and get close to? Would you try to take it away from them by saying that sort of thing doesn't exist? . . . that it can't happen ?

8 minutes ago, thormas said:

How would a person figure that out, figure anything out, learn or know anything without others be they found in a person or a person who speaks to us in a book, or song, or play, or movie, etc.? It seems we figure things out once we have something about which to reflect and wrestle with or fret about and then, sometimes, comes the Aha! moment. 

Maybe they could figure it out a lot easier if all these books and dogma weren't being dumped on them all the time If they could experience God and God's Love directly, instead of dealing with all this "cultural" and other crap.

[JosephM]

 

4 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

So the book itself is telling us we don't need a book. Do we need a book to tell us that, or can anyone anywhere figure it out on their own. . .

In my experience no book is needed but ...    sometimes the book or a book or person helps us to get to the point where we do not need a book or the other to receive directly for ourself. Some people never get past a book because they are caught up in their dependency on them or unwilling to wait on God for a more personal answer through trust and faith.

3 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Maybe they could figure it out a lot easier if all these books and dogma weren't being dumped on them all the time If they could experience God and God's Love directly, instead of dealing with all this "cultural" and other crap.

I would agree with that.

Personally i found only when i allowed God to tear down the building that  i was taught in 4 years of Bible college and then  allow God to build the building did i progress beyond the book part.

[Burl]

The value of books is that they convey the experiences of people of faith who are no longer with us.

 Books often inspire divine revelation, but any personal revelation must be discerned in the light of previous revelations by others.

[thormas]

11 minutes ago, Burl said:

The value of books is that they convey the experiences of people of faith who are no longer with us.

 Books often inspire divine revelation, but any personal revelation must be discerned in the light of previous revelations by others.

Well said on all counts. And for most people there is no dependency on books, simply a recognition, as you have said, that they convey the experience of other people - some long gone, some still with us and they are welcomed and respected insights of those people that are considered along with much else. There is no need to wait on God as God is ever-present.

 

[Elen1107]

16 hours ago, JosephM said:

In my experience no book is needed but ...    sometimes the book or a book or person helps us to get to the point where we do not need a book or the other to receive directly for ourself. Some people never get past a book because they are caught up in their dependency on them or unwilling to wait on God for a more personal answer through trust and faith.

 

It's nice to find some common ground and agreement again.

This is a pun on words but, ... Don't be so booked-up that U can't wait on or have room for God to touch you and relate to you directly through your own understanding and insight(s).

Don't know if that ^ really works, but I've written it up anyways

16 hours ago, JosephM said:

Personally i found only when i allowed God to tear down the building that  i was taught in 4 years of Bible college and then  allow God to build the building did i progress beyond the book part.

That actually sounds kind of interesting. I wouldn't mind knowing more about that/those experience(s) of yours, that's if you want to put them into words and share with people.

I'm still trying to figure out how to regard or relate to the book. I find I do a lot better if I just do 'no book' and just go with the spirit of God and Christ within me, and the holy spirit too. I don't end up doing or thinking anything that's really out there in relation to how the traditional booked-up mentality goes, except maybe they'd say I communicate too much for a female, which isn't communicating any more than any of the males do, so I don't see why their /your role model in this shouldn't be ok and stuff like that. I think I have some good ideas and insights at times, and I don't have a male person to express them for me, so why shouldn't I express them myself. I guess I myself don't really care who expresses the ideas or whatever, I much more care that the right or most insightful ideas get expressed. Still, if I see or feel that these ideas aren't getting shown or expressed, why shouldn't I express them myself? I'm not trying to 'control' anyone or be the big spokesperson for anyone or everyone. I take other people's ideas one at a time, and expect the same. Just because one person has a bunch of good ideas on one day doesn't mean they might not have a bad idea on another day or at another time. That's just people. Expecting anyone of us to be the perfect incarnation of Jesus all the time is a bit much as far as I'm concerned. Try as one might, I think most of us are going to come up with a bad or not so good idea once in a while.

Edit> Or someone/one of us might express something in not quite the right way, which I myself do a bit too, too often. . .  . . (the forum has just told me that I've run out of comments, for now, so I'll catch up with you and everyone else later).

Thanks for reading all this and thanks for your comments.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Elen1107

[Burl]

3 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

 

It's nice to find some common ground and agreement again.

This is a pun on words but, ... Don't be so booked-up that U can't wait on or have room for God to touch you and relate to you directly through your own understanding and insight(s).

Don't know if that ^ really works, but I've written it up anyways

That actually sounds kind of interesting. I wouldn't mind knowing more about that/those experience(s) of yours, that's if you want to put them into words and share with people.

I'm still trying to figure out how to regard or relate to the book. I find I do a lot better if I just do 'no book' and just go with the spirit of God and Christ within me, and the holy spirit too. I don't end up doing or thinking anything that's really out there in relation to how the traditional booked-up mentality goes, except maybe they'd say I communicate too much for a female, which isn't communicating any more than any of the males do, so I don't see why their /your role model in this shouldn't be ok and stuff like that. I think I have some good ideas and insights at times, and I don't have a male person to express them for me, so why shouldn't I express them myself. I guess I myself don't really care who expresses the ideas or whatever, I much more care that the right or most insightful ideas get expressed. Still, if I see or feel that these ideas aren't getting shown or expressed, why shouldn't I express them myself? I'm not trying to 'control' anyone or be the big spokesperson for anyone or everyone. I take other people's ideas one at a time, and expect the same. Just because one person has a bunch of good ideas on one day doesn't mean they might not have a bad idea on another day or at another time. That's just people. Expecting anyone of us to be the perfect incarnation of Jesus all the time is a bit much as far as I'm concerned. Try as one might, I think most of us are going to come up with a bad or not so good idea once in a while.

Edit> Or someone/one of us might express something in not quite the right way, which I myself do a bit too, too often. . .  . . (the forum has just told me that I've run out of comments, for now, so I'll catch up with you and everyone else later).

Thanks for reading all this and thanks for your comments.

Understandings, insights and revelations are all well and good . . .IF . . . one can confirm they are likely to be authentic by means outside of the self.

Self-deception is a real and present danger.  That “Aha!” moment is more likely than not actually an “Uh-oh!” moment if they do not work and play well with others.

[Elen1107]

8 hours ago, Burl said:

The value of books is that they convey the experiences of people of faith who are no longer with us.

 Books often inspire divine revelation, but any personal revelation must be discerned in the light of previous revelations by others.

I'm also thinking that the opposite is also true. Any past revelations must be discerned in the light of personal and more modern revelation and or insight(s) as well.

Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it is either right or wrong, it can be either. It depends on the tradition or the "revelation" or the idea(s).

 

9 minutes ago, Burl said:

Understandings, insights and revelations are all well and good . . .IF . . . one can confirm they are likely to be authentic by means outside of the self.

Self-deception is a real and present danger.  That “Aha!” moment is more likely than not actually an “Uh-oh!” moment if they do not work and play well with others.

It is nice to find confirmation and like mindedness with other people and other thinkers. It can be real nice to find that one is not alone in the world with one of their ideas or insights. It can also be downright scary if someone tries to shutdown and shutoff one's truest ideas and insights. Sometimes they are jealous, sometimes it's because they don't conform to their understanding of things, or they just don't understand it. Sometimes it means that they can no longer proceed with their greedy or self-centered ways, I think Jesus went through this and it was quite very possibly one of the reasons he faced crucifixion. Jesus might have been strong enough and deep and insightful enough to take this, I don't know if the rest of us are.

I think that you are so right in saying that "Self-deception is a real and present danger." , in regards to the subject we have been talking about as well as many, many other ideas and subjects. As far as what we have been talking about, all I can say is that, if one is being truly honest with oneself, when one is truly in touch with God, JC or the HS, one knows it, there is no doubt, one just knows it. Likewise, if one is not in touch with any or all of them, and one is being totally honest with oneself, one also knows it, there's no way around it, and if one is like against fooling oneself, one just knows it. Also one can be partially in touch with them, one just needs to be honest about it and know where they are at, and if one needs to do something or be aware of it or work on it or something, then one need to know that and do something about it or something.

--------------------------------------------

Just ran into a statement by Richard Rohr, that seems to be somewhat about people being in touch with God. To read it one needs to go to this Amazon link, then click on the jacket cover of the book - this will bring up a kindle of some of the book - then one needs to click on chapter one in the index - the second paragraph of chapter one seems to be about this/these kinds of experience of being in touch with God and the trinity. 

https://www.amazon.com/Wild-Man-Wise-Reflections-Spirituality/dp/0867167408/ref=pd_sbs_14_1/136-8344692-6894934?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0867167408&pd_rd_r=2ebff78c-1345-48ce-9c97-332f4b16459e&pd_rd_w=CA4Cu&pd_rd_wg=oIrxV&pf_rd_p=703f3758-d945-4136-8df6-a43d19d750d1&pf_rd_r=JJGWE7W1GZV6SH30RFPQ&psc=1&refRID=JJGWE7W1GZV6SH30RFPQ

 

Sorry if I'm cramming a bit too much into one post, but I have a feeling that I'm going to run out of comments again, so I'm making good/big use of the ones I've got.

Thanks for reading

[Elen1107]

9 hours ago, thormas said:

Well said on all counts. And for most people there is no dependency on books, simply a recognition, as you have said, that they convey the experience of other people - some long gone, some still with us and they are welcomed and respected insights of those people that are considered along with much else. There is no need to wait on God as God is ever-present.

 

God is ever-present,... but we can't experience Em directly . . ? . . 

I'm mad at you right now . .  . I'm afraid I'll say the wrong thing,.. if I haven't already . . . 😞 . . . 

😞

& that's that . .  😞 . . . 😞 . . . 😞 . . 

:-(    

[Burl]

1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

I'm also thinking that the opposite is also true. Any past revelations must be discerned in the light of personal and more modern revelation and or insight(s) as well.

Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it is either right or wrong, it can be either. It depends on the tradition or the "revelation" or the idea(s).

 

It is nice to find confirmation and like mindedness with other people and other thinkers. It can be real nice to find that one is not alone in the world with one of their ideas or insights. It can also be downright scary if someone tries to shutdown and shutoff one's truest ideas and insights. Sometimes they are jealous, sometimes it's because they don't conform to their understanding of things, or they just don't understand it. Sometimes it means that they can no longer proceed with their greedy or self-centered ways, I think Jesus went through this and it was quite very possibly one of the reasons he faced crucifixion. Jesus might have been strong enough and deep and insightful enough to take this, I don't know if the rest of us are.

I think that you are so right in saying that "Self-deception is a real and present danger." , in regards to the subject we have been talking about as well as many, many other ideas and subjects. As far as what we have been talking about, all I can say is that, if one is being truly honest with oneself, when one is truly in touch with God, JC or the HS, one knows it, there is no doubt, one just knows it. Likewise, if one is not in touch with any or all of them, and one is being totally honest with oneself, one also knows it, there's no way around it, and if one is like against fooling oneself, one just knows it. Also one can be partially in touch with them, one just needs to be honest about it and know where they are at, and if one needs to do something or be aware of it or work on it or something, then one need to know that and do something about it or something.

--------------------------------------------

Just ran into a statement by Richard Rohr, that seems to be somewhat about people being in touch with God. To read it one needs to go to this Amazon link, then click on the jacket cover of the book - this will bring up a kindle of some of the book - then one needs to click on chapter one in the index - the second paragraph of chapter one seems to be about this/these kinds of experience of being in touch with God and the trinity. 

https://www.amazon.com/Wild-Man-Wise-Reflections-Spirituality/dp/0867167408/ref=pd_sbs_14_1/136-8344692-6894934?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0867167408&pd_rd_r=2ebff78c-1345-48ce-9c97-332f4b16459e&pd_rd_w=CA4Cu&pd_rd_wg=oIrxV&pf_rd_p=703f3758-d945-4136-8df6-a43d19d750d1&pf_rd_r=JJGWE7W1GZV6SH30RFPQ&psc=1&refRID=JJGWE7W1GZV6SH30RFPQ

 

Sorry if I'm cramming a bit too much into one post, but I have a feeling that I'm going to run out of comments again, so I'm making good/big use of the ones I've got.

Thanks for reading

Traditions often need to be updated, but rarely discarded entirely.  Traditions are successful solutions to old problems and if they are chucked out we usually get our old problems back.  Better to make gradual adjustments.

[JosephM]

Elen,

I for one think you are on the right track. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding is a powerful writing that will prove itself over and over. I don't worry about mistakes i may make on the way. God is well able to make me stand in spite of falls or any failings on my part. I know and have no doubt that live die, sink or swim, nothing shall be able to separate me from the love of God which is in Christ.

6 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

That actually sounds kind of interesting. I wouldn't mind knowing more about that/those experience(s) of yours, that's if you want to put them into words and share with people.

A lot of it has been shared here over the last 11 years and that which is not can be found in a book with both factual and fiction inserted in it to make it more readable. It was published in 2003 called "An Awakening Within" available by ebook or softcover from Amazon. Barnes and Noble or directly from Trafford Publishing  by e-book for $3.99.

[Elen1107]

31 minutes ago, Burl said:

Traditions often need to be updated, but rarely discarded entirely.  Traditions are successful solutions to old problems and if they are chucked out we usually get our old problems back.  Better to make gradual adjustments.

Yes, very much so. But if we forget the reasons that they are there in the first place, then they die anyways, because we don't know why we're doing things and they seem nonsensical.

I've been thinking about this country's sense of good citizenship a lot lately. It seems that because parts of it really needed to be changed and re-thought-out, and updated, it seems like a lot of people just got mad at "good citizenship" in and of itself, and threw their whole sense of good citizenship out entirely. They/we felt betrayed by "good citizenship" or the sense of good citizenship we had been taught. So it was 'good citizenship' itself that got attacked and ripped apart.

Attacking one's or the country's whole sense of 'good citizenship' has not turned out to be a very good idea. 😞 

[Elen1107]

3 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Elen,

I for one think you are on the right track. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding is a powerful writing that will prove itself over and over. I don't worry about mistakes i may make on the way. God is well able to make me stand in spite of falls or any failings on my part. I know and have no doubt that live die, sink or swim, nothing shall be able to separate me from the love of God which is in Christ.

A lot of it has been shared here over the last 11 years and that which is not can be found in a book with both factual and fiction inserted in it to make it more readable. It was published in 2003 called "An Awakening Within" available by ebook or softcover from Amazon. Barnes and Noble or directly from Trafford Publishing  by e-book for $3.99.

I sometimes wonder if trusting in the Lord and loving Em/them (the trinity) intertwines with our own understanding or spiritual understanding of things. - - - (though not so much when I got mad at thormas and probably have said a wrongish thing here and there 😞 ) - - -

Thanks for saying you think I'm on the right track.

Maybe I'll check out your book at some point. I'm not so good and doing purchases online, the whole thing just scares me. Snail-mail and old fashioned stores are much more my way of doing things. Same with supporting this forum so I can make more comments and stuff. I'm just not big on online purchasing. 

I'll check out some of your posts from previous years. Thanks

[thormas]

13 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I sometimes wonder if trusting in the Lord and loving Em/them (the trinity) intertwines with our own understanding or spiritual understanding of things. - - - (though not so much when I got mad at thormas and probably have said a wrongish thing here and there 😞 ) - - -

To 'trust in the Lord' does not mean that you have to walk on eggshells in discussions and I take your comments as both articulating your position and also trying to get across to another what you firmly believe and what you believe might be important for others. 

And it is fine that I disagree and do the same in discussions with you. 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by thormas

[Elen1107]

On 8/16/2020 at 11:45 AM, thormas said:

To 'trust in the Lord' does not mean that you have to walk on eggshells in discussions and I take your comments as both articulating your position and also trying to get across to another what you firmly believe and what you believe might be important for others. 

And it is fine that I disagree and do the same in discussions with you. 

 

 

I'm not all that fine with the way we sometimes disagree

I'm thinking we could get better at/about it.

I'm absolutely not saying don't disagree, not if one is truly being honest and not just disagreeing to disagree, or for some other reason(s).

The way we sometimes do it could go a bit better, I think.