Agnosticism

[PaulS]

7 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Oh. I do have further insight that might help you to form your own assumptions on the experience. They would comprise of Impressions and feelings that follow such. I just didn't perceive that you were asking with the whole Muslim thing question before.

So here goes. The experience happened numerous times while driving, while alone, while in the presence of others, while meditating, while relaxing and  flying an airplane to mention a few that come to mind. It is something i can't make happen by conscious control though there is usually a need for it whether for myself or another. In other words i have no conscious control over bringing on the experience that i am aware of. I count it a gift. During an experience there is a feeling of no separation not only between God and Self but also the other if involved. There is a sense of no locality yet a sense of Home that is difficult to describe afterwards. There are no questions, nor doubt in such a state, only knowing. When it has returned to a more normal state there is a sense of inexplicable peace and joy. No i do not take drugs, not even aspirins , The only exception is in the last few years i use eye drops so i will not lose my eye from pressure.

That should be a start for your questions for a better understanding if such can be had without experiencing this for yourself.

Sorry, I don’t mean to sound difficult, but I’m not asking you to explain your own experience but rather this concept, this belief or understanding that one’s experience is an accurate reflection of what there is to experience and not just our minds making it seem ‘real’.  

I used the extreme example of the fanatical Muslim because I think they would also say their experience of God and what God desires, is very real to them, yet I suspect it would be different to yours.  And I just don’t see both necessarily being reconciled.  So I was interested if you had any insights into how we can understand this concept of ‘personal experience’ aside from the only point that seems to have been used so far - i.e. the experience to the user is real, so therefore it is real.

I’m happy if you cannot provide an answer - I was just asking to see if you could shed any further light.

[JosephM]

1 hour ago, PaulS said:

Sorry, I don’t mean to sound difficult, but I’m not asking you to explain your own experience but rather this concept, this belief or understanding that one’s experience is an accurate reflection of what there is to experience and not just our minds making it seem ‘real’.  

It's not a concept or belief. It is an experience that seems to go beyond the 5 senses we are familiar with. How do you know that this experience is accurate? You  "know" because the evidence while unseen is present and known. In fact it is sometimes verifiable by the experiencer and others present even though it can't be repeated at will.

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I used the extreme example of the fanatical Muslim because I think they would also say their experience of God and what God desires, is very real to them, yet I suspect it would be different to yours.  And I just don’t see both necessarily being reconciled.  So I was interested if you had any insights into how we can understand this concept of ‘personal experience’ aside from the only point that seems to have been used so far - i.e. the experience to the user is real, so therefore it is real.

There you go .... thinking about what the "fanatical Muslim" is thinking. It seems to me you assume too much about him unless you have direct knowledge of his thinking. I have never heard a Muslim say he preformed an atrocious act because God  told him by other than his interpretation in a book. But i am open to such a testimony if you will provide one. Some Christians also say God told me and mean the Bible said it so i believe it was God because that is his word.

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I’m happy if you cannot provide an answer - I was just asking to see if you could shed any further light.

Some things i believe. They are not from "knowing" .... mostly thinking and reasoning. They are not made real by my thinking and are subject to change. Some things i "know" and they were not obtained  except by experience beyond what most consider normal. If you wish me to make you understand how my experience is more accurate or real than the Muslim how can you expect me to provide an answer since i have no "fanatical Muslim" here to question and determine any differences. I can only speak or share for myself. Not trying to convince anyone what is real to them or more accurate.

[PaulS]

18 minutes ago, JosephM said:

It's not a concept or belief. It is an experience that seems to go beyond the 5 senses we are familiar with. How do you know that this experience is accurate? You  "know" because the evidence while unseen is present and known. In fact it is sometimes verifiable by the experiencer and others present even though it can't be repeated at will.

There you go .... thinking about what the "fanatical Muslim" is thinking. It seems to me you assume too much about him unless you have direct knowledge of his thinking. I have never heard a Muslim say he preformed an act because God  told him by other than his interpretation in a book. But i am open to such a testimony if you will provide one.

Some things i believe. They are not from "knowing" .... mostly thinking and reasoning. They are not made real by my thinking and are subject to change. Some things i "know" and they were not obtained  except by experience beyond what most consider normal.

Okay.  Thankyou for taking the time to explain.  I think you can entertain that personal experiences of God  differs amongst individuals - I expect some are similar to others and I know others make claims that are different.  It’s hard for me to understand how some people can say one experience is a true experience of God whilst simultaneously saying another’s experience isn’t true - like I think you are saying about the fanatical Muslim.  But I do acknowledge that maybe neither of us are actually speaking from a position of authority on that aspect of the matter as neither of us have had personal exposure to fanatical Muslims.

[JosephM]

11 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Okay.  Thankyou for taking the time to explain.  I think you can entertain that personal experiences of God  differs amongst individuals - I expect some are similar to others and I know others make claims that are different.  It’s hard for me to understand how some people can say one experience is a true experience of God whilst simultaneously saying another’s experience isn’t true - like I think you are saying about the fanatical Muslim.  But I do acknowledge that maybe neither of us are actually speaking from a position of authority on that aspect of the matter as neither of us have had personal exposure to such individuals.

I don't know what the Muslim experience is and you may not either to even make a judgement . Why assume anything without personal knowlege? It seems to me better to not  compare so called experiences of others. It seems to me  better to seek out your own and then there will be understanding. Also i never said anothers experience wasn't true. I was just challenging your information that the Muslim had an experience directly from God to even use to say one was true and one not.

[PaulS]

6 minutes ago, JosephM said:

I don't know what the Muslim experience is and you may not either to even make a judgement . Why assume anything without personal knowlege? It seems to me better to not  compare so called experiences of others. It seems to me  better to seek out your own and then there will be understanding.

In my head I’m not limiting it to the Muslim - that was just an example as a conversation starter.

I have had the very real experience of being in the presence of Jesus as God.  If you had asked me then if it was a genuine experience, I would have sounded very convincing that it was.  I could probably have said my experience was beyond any understanding of others, that I had experienced Jesus directly and that I knew the experience was genuine.

My current experience is that that experience was an illusion.

Same person, two different experiences, both of which seem completely and inarguably real.  I’m not sure seeking out our own experiences, and having them,  is actually the best measure.  Just thoughts.  Thanks for discussing.

[JosephM]

55 minutes ago, PaulS said:

In my head I’m not limiting it to the Muslim - that was just an example as a conversation starter.

I have had the very real experience of being in the presence of Jesus as God.  If you had asked me then if it was a genuine experience, I would have sounded very convincing that it was.  I could probably have said my experience was beyond any understanding of others, that I had experienced Jesus directly and that I knew the experience was genuine.

My current experience is that that experience was an illusion.

Same person, two different experiences, both of which seem completely and inarguably real.  I’m not sure seeking out our own experiences, and having them,  is actually the best measure.  Just thoughts.  Thanks for discussing.

Sometimes our experiences are limited by our understanding. The mind can make a familiar image to fit its understanding. It is no less real because it might have been the only way your mind could accept it at the time. You mentioned nothing other than the presence of God in the form of an image you were familiar with. Any other form of communication, feeling or sense?

I don't doubt that your experience was real. When i was a toddler i had experiences i couldn't process at the time and to do so would also seem today as an illusion because i could not compare it to words only symbols i was taught. But later i was able to receive in a more meaningful way. It made none of my prior experiences less real.

In my experience, God doesn't speak in words. We know and then translate to the best of our understanding. That's why it is so difficult to communicate that which has no language. It is more accurately sensed or felt in my experience. We are limited in communications to others in this realm by language and our mastery of it but words are not needed while experiencing God.

[JosephM]

58 minutes ago, PaulS said:

My current experience is that that experience was an illusion.

What is your current experience that makes that an illusion? Are we talking of the same kind of current experience as the past one or is your current experience based on study, reasoning and thinking that has made your past experience into an assumed illusion?

[PaulS]

26 minutes ago, JosephM said:

What is your current experience that makes that an illusion? Are we talking of the same kind of current experience as the past one or is your current experience based on study, reasoning and thinking that has made your past experience into an assumed illusion?

Just a feeling really, to my core.  Mabel that’s how to explain it - I feel an experience to my core that tells me those past experiences were imagined - my brain at work.

There was one relatively vivid experience where Jesus (white Jesus with blonde hair) was sitting in the loungreoom with me.  I felt ‘saved’, safe and at ease.  That was when I believed in an eternal Hell of torment.  Other times I would swear that Jesus was with me personally, unable to be seen but an invisible consciousness that was a definite presence, as I experienced anyhow.

Maybe not unsurprisingly, I stopped having any such experiences as I moved away from Christianity - read more, experienced more, changed the beliefs that I had held for as long as I could remember.  That was a time of stress interestingly enough and I had a lot of other spiritual experiences that I was convinced had occurred, but they too lessened and disappeared as I distanced myself from my old beliefs.  As for my Jesus experiences, I came to the experience where I am convinced now that these also were my mind at work.  There were times I tried to recreate some of these old experiences - to no avail.

About 20 years later when I suffered a bout of anxiety and depression, I had further ‘experiences’ with a black dog often attacking me in bed (half dream half awake state) and an ominous spiritual presence in my room.  I definitely could feel that, so said my experience then.  I also experienced a vision of Jesus having a battle with Satan in the sky above me.  I can still see that vision to this day - that’s how real and convincing it was.  But again, what I experience now tells me that was my brain doing the work, not any ‘real’ experience so to speak.

[JosephM]

Thanks for sharing. I too have found that we cannot create or re-recreate those experiences. It seems to me they just happen when conditions are ripe. In my case there were also painful or stressful times moving away from traditional Christianity dogma and doctrine . Perhaps i didn't want the dirty water but was able to throw out the bathwater without the Baby.. 🙂

I also think the mind comes into the picture  trying to make sense of our experiences within the limits of our physical experience, intellect and a number of other factors. I can't say i really believed all we were fed. To me, i took it in but i didn't believe nor disbelieve all i was taught. Turned out I was waiting for something to happen that i could know was real and not just the teachings of others. 

Peace and goodwill

[Elen1107]

8 hours ago, PaulS said:

Just a feeling really, to my core.  Mabel that’s how to explain it - I feel an experience to my core that tells me those past experiences were imagined - my brain at work.

I don't know. Can you give these experiences of yours at least some creadence, like maybe they were real and really meant something? Maybe there was something "Higher" that was trying to communicate to you and reach you?

8 hours ago, PaulS said:

There was one relatively vivid experience where Jesus (white Jesus with blonde hair) was sitting in the loungreoom with me.  I felt ‘saved’, safe and at ease.  That was when I believed in an eternal Hell of torment.  Other times I would swear that Jesus was with me personally, unable to be seen but an invisible consciousness that was a definite presence, as I experienced anyhow.

I think that sometimes God or JC tries to communicate to us in images and symbols that we understand. Perhaps for you a "white Jesus with blonde hair" was one you would recognize and could relate to. Myself when I've had little inner "visions" of Jesus, he seems to have brown hair and a beard, and is wearing white robes. It's the typical image of Christ that I am most familiar with and something I would recognize as being a picture or image of Christ.

As for hell, I'm kind of just not going there lately. There's a quote from the NT Pauline Epistles that says, "Don't ask who will go up or who will go down, but know that the word of God is in your mind and on your lips". I don't think that this quote quite covers it all, but it does kind of supports or reinforces my notion of 'not going there', and that's not really what the whole thing is about. Sorry, but I'd just rather not focus on "hell", and would much rather focus on the positive side of things, like heaven, God and JC and their energy and the HS, (Holy Spirit). I also seem to do much better spiritually and I guess I could say psychologically when I do this. It's also not my progitive. I don't feel like I have any say so about whether or not hell exists or who might go there. That's not "my department" one might say, and if hell exists, it's the "department" of the real higher-ups like JC or God or maybe even St. Peter. Or if hell exists then maybe it's the "devil's" department and I'd rather not be in league with him/it. (sorry to be rambling on here a bit).

Where you say, "Other times I would swear that Jesus was with me personally, unable to be seen but an invisible consciousness that was a definite presence, as I experienced anyhow." Could you believe that there could be any reality or credence to this what so ever, even if the literal context in which you understood Jesus  at the time, turns out not to be 100% true, or true to you? . . . I've had this kind of experience too, and more and more often as time goes on. I can actually say that I've had this type of experience for days in a row, but this is another set of stories or something(s).

8 hours ago, PaulS said:

Maybe not unsurprisingly, I stopped having any such experiences as I moved away from Christianity - read more, experienced more, changed the beliefs that I had held for as long as I could remember.  That was a time of stress interestingly enough and I had a lot of other spiritual experiences that I was convinced had occurred, but they too lessened and disappeared as I distanced myself from my old beliefs.  As for my Jesus experiences, I came to the experience where I am convinced now that these also were my mind at work.  There were times I tried to recreate some of these old experiences - to no avail.

About 20 years later when I suffered a bout of anxiety and depression, I had further ‘experiences’ with a black dog often attacking me in bed (half dream half awake state) and an ominous spiritual presence in my room.  I definitely could feel that, so said my experience then.  I also experienced a vision of Jesus having a battle with Satan in the sky above me.  I can still see that vision to this day - that’s how real and convincing it was.  But again, what I experience now tells me that was my brain doing the work, not any ‘real’ experience so to speak.

I myself probably couldn't handle dreams and visions like those. Perhaps you are internally stronger and have more internal fortitude regarding this kind of thing, than I have. Neale Donald Walsch, has said that God communicates with us primarily through our imagination. While I don't agree with or understand everything that NDW says or is about, this idea of his really has stuck with me over time.

I'm not trying to convert you or tell you what to think, (for one reason, I tend to be particularly bad at this sort of thing). I also think that people need to come to these things on their own personal path, and if it's not internally substantial or  real to them, and perhaps them alone, then it doesn't carry that much weight or water anyways.

Thanks for reading all this

[Elen1107]

8 hours ago, JosephM said:

Thanks for sharing. I too have found that we cannot create or re-recreate those experiences. It seems to me they just happen when conditions are ripe. In my case there were also painful or stressful times moving away from traditional Christianity dogma and doctrine . Perhaps i didn't want the dirty water but was able to throw out the bathwater without the Baby.. 🙂

I know what you are saying and I've had these experiences that I didn't create. They just happened and I am glad and thankful for them.

I know that somewhere in the New Testament it says one can't bombard or force their way into heaven or God or JC. But I kind of feel sometimes like I kind of have done this. I finally got fed up, and felt I wanted to feel JC's presence and love all the time, or more of the time than I was experiencing it. So I kicked out (of myself) all other kinds of thinking and feeling, and kind of was like, "let me 'in' or I and things are going to get really difficult".

I'm thinking that maybe what has really happened is that I was able to be more "tuned in" to Christ and his Spirit. I also feel that I'm at least to a degree able to maintain this being 'tuned in", even for days in a row. Where perhaps I am not "creating" or "recreating" these experinces, I am doing something that makes them happen more often and makes them more part of my life.

They are not the blissful, all encompassing experiences that one sometimes has regarding these things. But there is a real element of bliss and all-emcomass-ment about it, as well as a spiritual happyness, that may not be all that intense, it still is a real joy and happyness.

Thanks for reading this, again

8 hours ago, JosephM said:

I also think the mind comes into the picture  trying to make sense of our experiences within the limits of our physical experience, intellect and a number of other factors. I can't say i really believed all we were fed. To me, i took it in but i didn't believe nor disbelieve all i was taught. Turned out I was waiting for something to happen that i could know was real and not just the teachings of others. 

Peace and goodwill

(bold highlighting by me). I think I kinda have had this kind of experience too.

Thanks for sharing, for somethings, it's good to know that one is not the only one.

Thanks

[JosephM]

3 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I'm thinking that maybe what has really happened is that I was able to be more "tuned in" to Christ and his Spirit. I also feel that I'm at least to a degree able to maintain this being 'tuned in", even for days in a row. Where perhaps I am not "creating" or "recreating" these experinces, I am doing something that makes them happen more often and makes them more part of my life.

Thanks for sharing....   I think you make a good point with your experience. Yes, when i look back i also reminded that there are things that i was doing that seem to contribute to the experiences happening more often in my life. When there was a real need and i was willing and able to receive there seemed to be more frequent occurrences.

[Elen1107]

3 hours ago, JosephM said:

Thanks for sharing....   I think you make a good point with your experience. Yes, when i look back i also reminded that there are things that i was doing that seem to contribute to the experiences happening more often in my life. When there was a real need and i was willing and able to receive there seemed to be more frequent occurrences.

Seems that it can be like a more regular way of being or something too. Like in touch with Christ's Spirit, from moment to moment or through the day(s) so to speak.

[JosephM]

1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

Seems that it can be like a more regular way of being or something too. Like in touch with Christ's Spirit, from moment to moment or through the day(s) so to speak.

yes, There are definitely things we can do to be peaceful and  into tune with stillness and Christ rather than allow ourselves to get dragged down by things we have no control over.

[PaulS]

22 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I don't know. Can you give these experiences of yours at least some creadence, like maybe they were real and really meant something? Maybe there was something "Higher" that was trying to communicate to you and reach you?

I suppose I shouldn't/don't rule it out entirely as not real, it's just that I can't feel it these days as actually having been real and I guess I can't help the feeling that I now 'know' it wasn't really.  But 'maybe' as you say.  I can say I'm open to such, just that I am yet to experience anything that makes me believe such.

22 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I think that sometimes God or JC tries to communicate to us in images and symbols that we understand. Perhaps for you a "white Jesus with blonde hair" was one you would recognize and could relate to. Myself when I've had little inner "visions" of Jesus, he seems to have brown hair and a beard, and is wearing white robes. It's the typical image of Christ that I am most familiar with and something I would recognize as being a picture or image of Christ.

See, I'm just not convinced that that isn't out own minds just coming up with the 'experience'.  Our minds are powerful tools.  The fact that we each have a different image of Jesus that we were both most familiar to us suggests to me that our mind is accommodating us rather than us having a genuine experience.  But I mull this over in discussions like this and I don't want to say that other people's experiences aren't real experiences.  It's just that for me personally, I'm not convinced they are or that mine were.  It's hard to say that without people often taking offence, but that's not my intention, it's just that their claimed experience does nothing to convince me of its authenticity.  Does that make sense?

22 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

As for hell, I'm kind of just not going there lately. There's a quote from the NT Pauline Epistles that says, "Don't ask who will go up or who will go down, but know that the word of God is in your mind and on your lips". I don't think that this quote quite covers it all, but it does kind of supports or reinforces my notion of 'not going there', and that's not really what the whole thing is about. Sorry, but I'd just rather not focus on "hell", and would much rather focus on the positive side of things, like heaven, God and JC and their energy and the HS, (Holy Spirit). I also seem to do much better spiritually and I guess I could say psychologically when I do this. It's also not my progitive. I don't feel like I have any say so about whether or not hell exists or who might go there. That's not "my department" one might say, and if hell exists, it's the "department" of the real higher-ups like JC or God or maybe even St. Peter. Or if hell exists then maybe it's the "devil's" department and I'd rather not be in league with him/it. (sorry to be rambling on here a bit).

No problem, at all.

22 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Where you say, "Other times I would swear that Jesus was with me personally, unable to be seen but an invisible consciousness that was a definite presence, as I experienced anyhow." Could you believe that there could be any reality or credence to this what so ever, even if the literal context in which you understood Jesus  at the time, turns out not to be 100% true, or true to you? . . . I've had this kind of experience too, and more and more often as time goes on. I can actually say that I've had this type of experience for days in a row, but this is another set of stories or something(s).

Perhaps I could believe, it's just that I don't.  I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I don't think we can make ourselves believe one thing or another.  We either believe something or we don't.  I don't think it's a choice.  Could it be real and I not believe so - I think yes.

22 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I myself probably couldn't handle dreams and visions like those. Perhaps you are internally stronger and have more internal fortitude regarding this kind of thing, than I have. Neale Donald Walsch, has said that God communicates with us primarily through our imagination. While I don't agree with or understand everything that NDW says or is about, this idea of his really has stuck with me over time.

Ha - I didn't handle it! Not if you consider 9-10  months of anxiety and depression, whilst seriously considering taking my own life, as handling it!   (that was after the Jesus/Satan duel in the sky).  But luckily for me, I kept breathing and came out the other side.  This forum was literally a life saver.  I hope it is always here for others that may come across it in such a state.

22 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I'm not trying to convert you or tell you what to think, (for one reason, I tend to be particularly bad at this sort of thing). I also think that people need to come to these things on their own personal path, and if it's not internally substantial or  real to them, and perhaps them alone, then it doesn't carry that much weight or water anyways.

Thanks for reading all this

Thanks.  I appreciate your comments and discussion.  I don't read you as trying to convert or tell me what to think either.  Cheers.

[thormas]

1 hour ago, PaulS said:

See, I'm just not convinced that that isn't out own minds just coming up with the 'experience'.  Our minds are powerful tools.  

 

16 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Seems that it can be like a more regular way of being or something too. Like in touch with Christ's Spirit, from moment to moment or through the day(s) so to speak.

I have never had such experiences but I lean, in part, toward the possibility of the mind also. I rarely remember my visions in dreams (to me something perhaps similar) but when I do, it's like a movie and I wonder where the various elements came from but my answer is inevitably my experiences which are being churned over in my mind. However my other reason to at least raise a question about such experiences is I don't think God works this way.

And for the progressive Christian I wonder if some of what we're talking about here is very similar to visions or experiences that have been reported by traditional theistic Christians or are even reported in the Bible. Having said that, I don't accept that simply because something shares or is similar to what is found in theism or the Bible, is suspect - but it at least poses some questions - for me. 

Having said this, I do think that if one believes God IS and that Jesus tells/shows us who God, one can be open to and actively choose to embody God or live in the Spirit and 'know' God.

Anyway, I'm still mulling this over and re-reading some of Eckhart.

Interesting and intriguing topic.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by thormas

[Elen1107]

8 hours ago, PaulS said:

I suppose I shouldn't/don't rule it out entirely as not real, it's just that I can't feel it these days as actually having been real and I guess I can't help the feeling that I now 'know' it wasn't really.  But 'maybe' as you say.  I can say I'm open to such, just that I am yet to experience anything that makes me believe such.

See, I'm just not convinced that that isn't out own minds just coming up with the 'experience'.  Our minds are powerful tools.  The fact that we each have a different image of Jesus that we were both most familiar to us suggests to me that our mind is accommodating us rather than us having a genuine experience.  But I mull this over in discussions like this and I don't want to say that other people's experiences aren't real experiences.  It's just that for me personally, I'm not convinced they are or that mine were.  It's hard to say that without people often taking offence, but that's not my intention, it's just that their claimed experience does nothing to convince me of its authenticity.  Does that make sense?

For myself I had been on a search for truth for like 10-15 years. I'd been picking up little snippets and sayings during this time, which I really loved, but it wasn't enough. Finally I became internally and emotionally, and what I now see as spiritually desparate, and started praying to a God I didn't really believe in and didn't know a thing about. That's when these little inner visions of Jesus came to me. There was no inner or outer compulsion for me to be "finding Jesus". Not from family, friends, community or from myself. In fact I could say the opposite was honestly and really more true. I don't really see this as, as you say, my "mind accommodating" myself. I had given up on Jesus long ago, that's if I ever "had" him, I wasn't raised religious or church going, and what I got from my father, who was raised religious, I didn't like hardly at all.

Sometime after that I started finding writers like J. S. Spong who really enabled me to get past "all that" that I really didn't like in the first place. (there's a good deal left out in this story but it will have to do for now).

I can't speak to you about what you think is authentic. I can only find and realize these things for myself.

8 hours ago, PaulS said:

No problem, at all.

Perhaps I could believe, it's just that I don't.  I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I don't think we can make ourselves believe one thing or another.  We either believe something or we don't.  I don't think it's a choice.  Could it be real and I not believe so - I think yes.

Ha - I didn't handle it! Not if you consider 9-10  months of anxiety and depression, whilst seriously considering taking my own life, as handling it!   (that was after the Jesus/Satan duel in the sky).  But luckily for me, I kept breathing and came out the other side.  This forum was literally a life saver.  I hope it is always here for others that may come across it in such a state.

Thanks.  I appreciate your comments and discussion.  I don't read you as trying to convert or tell me what to think either.  Cheers.

I think you might be right, that we can't "make ourselves believe one thing or another". At the same time I do feel like at one point I like made myself believe some of my experiences, in part because I simply and really needed too. (This was after I discovered Spong and Ehrman and didn't have much else to go on except my own experiences).

It really hurts that you had that level of anxiety and depression and were considering taking your own life. Gees, I don't really know what to say.  :-( :-( :-(

Glad this forum was a "life saver" for you. 

Hope everything is going ever so well for you and that you never go back there again. I don't know how really good I am about relating about these things, but if you ever need to communicate start a thread on this forum or even send a message. I like you Paul, even though we often think differently, and perhaps I'm a step or two older than you. I genuinely mean it and do like you. You're a good and smart and considerate guy, and these things are worth more than people often give them credit for. Hope that you are doing well now.

[Elen1107]

8 hours ago, thormas said:

 

I have never had such experiences but I lean, in part, toward the possibility of the mind also. I rarely remember my visions in dreams (to me something perhaps similar) but when I do, it's like a movie and I wonder where the various elements came from but my answer is inevitably my experiences which are being churned over in my mind. However my other reason to at least raise a question about such experiences is I don't think God works this way.

And for the progressive Christian I wonder if some of what we're talking about here is very similar to visions or experiences that have been reported by traditional theistic Christians or are even reported in the Bible. Having said that, I don't accept that simply because something shares or is similar to what is found in theism or the Bible, is suspect - but it at least poses some questions - for me. 

Having said this, I do think that if one believes God IS and that Jesus tells/shows us who God, one can be open to and actively choose to embody God or live in the Spirit and 'know' God.

Anyway, I'm still mulling this over and re-reading some of Eckhart.

Interesting and intriguing topic.

 

I don't think that one can really believe in these experiences unless one has had them themselves. That might just be the way it is with this as well as with some other things. They say that some people don't believe in Love until it happens to them, but in a way that's a different subject.

I haven't read much from the "traditional theistic Christians", so far they haven't really spoken to me, I get through the first few pages and then just have to put it down. Most of the reading that I do is with people like Spong or Ehrman or like I think I've said to you before, documentaries on science and that sort of stuff. I have read the bible, most of the Old Testament and the New Testament a number of times, but I don't count myself in league with the visionaries in the bible, not at all, I just can't go there. 

Also, some of these little inner visions I've had, (they were just like seeing the image of Christ in my minds eye), were before I had ever even read the bible, cept for a very few pages, so I don't think I was 'being like them' or something, in fact I'm sure I wasn't. Actually I'm kind of embarrassed about talking or communicating about them. I can see how people would think it's just too weird.

Thanks for reading

[Elen1107]

22 hours ago, JosephM said:

yes, There are definitely things we can do to be peaceful and  into tune with stillness and Christ rather than allow ourselves to get dragged down by things we have no control over.

There are things that we can't control or change,

But we can try :-) 

[thormas]

32 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

I don't think that one can really believe in these experiences unless one has had them themselves. That might just be the way it is with this as well as with some other things. They say that some people don't believe in Love until it happens to them, but in a way that's a different subject.

I haven't read much from the "traditional theistic Christians", so far they haven't really spoken to me, I get through the first few pages and then just have to put it down. Most of the reading that I do is with people like Spong or Ehrman or like I think I've said to you before, documentaries on science and that sort of stuff. I have read the bible, most of the Old Testament and the New Testament a number of times, but I don't count myself in league with the visionaries in the bible, not at all, I just can't go there. 

Also, some of these little inner visions I've had, (they were just like seeing the image of Christ in my minds eye), were before I had ever even read the bible, cept for a very few pages, so I don't think I was 'being like them' or something, in fact I'm sure I wasn't. Actually I'm kind of embarrassed about talking or communicating about them. I can see how people would think it's just too weird.

Thanks for reading

Perhaps but it remains an interesting topic with some questions.

By those traditional beliefs I was just referring to the traditional Christianity that many people grew up with and 'experiences' such as Lourdes, Fatima or some of the saints (that might be a Catholic thing) or bible visionaries, as you said.

Not a question of weird at all and, for me, it is something I'm curious about.

[Elen1107]

28 minutes ago, thormas said:

Perhaps but it remains an interesting topic with some questions.

By those traditional beliefs I was just referring to the traditional Christianity that many people grew up with and 'experiences' such as Lourdes, Fatima or some of the saints (that might be a Catholic thing) or bible visionaries, as you said.

Not a question of weird at all and, for me, it is something I'm curious about.

Yeah, I wasn't raised religious, (except for some of my dad's weird stuff), or church going at all. I think I might have seen a black and white movie on the TV when I was a child about Fatima, but I really didn't get it or identify with it at all. For me it was just little, inner visions, like in my minds eye, not an outer "actual vision", like someone standing outside of me in a room or in a special place or something.

Thanks for saying it's not weird. I'm like, it would look kind of weird to me. To me it's just things that have happened. 

Added edit > If you read my last post to PaulS on this thread it explains a bit more about it, but don't feel like you have to or nothing, I know how short time can get and how "heady" this stuff can get sometimes.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Elen1107
added a last sentence

[PaulS]

3 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I can't speak to you about what you think is authentic. I can only find and realize these things for myself.

Yeah, I understand that

3 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

It really hurts that you had that level of anxiety and depression and were considering taking your own life. Gees, I don't really know what to say.  😞 😞 😞

Glad this forum was a "life saver" for you. 

Hope everything is going ever so well for you and that you never go back there again. I don't know how really good I am about relating about these things, but if you ever need to communicate start a thread on this forum or even send a message. I like you Paul, even though we often think differently, and perhaps I'm a step or two older than you. I genuinely mean it and do like you. You're a good and smart and considerate guy, and these things are worth more than people often give them credit for. Hope that you are doing well now.

Thanks.  All good now.  That was a period I went through about 12 years ago.  The positives I take out of it are that I think I better understand how people may get to that point where they think suicide is the only answer (they just find themselves in a hole that they can’t imagine themselves escaping from) and it resulted in me volunteering on a suicide hotline for several years.  For me it was all a freaky experience as up until that point (40 years of age) I thought I had everything in my life under control! Ha!

 

[Elen1107]

4 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Yeah, I understand that

Thanks.  All good now.  That was a period I went through about 12 years ago.  The positives I take out of it are that I think I better understand how people may get to that point where they think suicide is the only answer (they just find themselves in a hole that they can’t imagine themselves escaping from) and it resulted in me volunteering on a suicide hotline for several years.  For me it was all a freaky experience as up until that point (40 years of age) I thought I had everything in my life under control! Ha!

 

That is real good to hear. Real good.

I meant it though. I remembered you from when I was posting here like 5 years ago. (don't know if you remember me at all). I liked you then too. Your smart and intelligent and brave too, with some of the things that you are willing to say and stand up for. "Don't let the turkeys get you down." ( < that's a quote from a T-shirt that someone gave me a long time ago). 

Thought you had life under control did ya. Sometimes I've just got to go with put the G Spirit/God first or the "K of heaven first and all these things will be given to you" or I'll just come undone. Know you don't really 'do' the GS/God and the K of H, but there's got to be something not too dissimilar that you've got going for you too.

[PaulS]

5 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I meant it though. I remembered you from when I was posting here like 5 years ago. (don't know if you remember me at all). I liked you then too. Your smart and intelligent and brave too, with some of the things that you are willing to say and stand up for. "Don't let the turkeys get you down." ( < that's a quote from a T-shirt that someone gave me a long time ago). 

Thanks.  I did remember your name and re-familiarized myself with some of your posts from way back in 2014.  I liked your approach to things then and I still do now.  Glad you have decided to end your hiatus for however long you should choose to.  I hope you're liking participating here once again. 

5 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Thought you had life under control did ya. Sometimes I've just got to go with put the G Spirit/God first or the "K of heaven first and all these things will be given to you" or I'll just come undone. Know you don't really 'do' the GS/God and the K of H, but there's got to be something not too dissimilar that you've got going for you too.

Well, I'm still breathing so something's still kicking me along!

[Elen1107]

16 hours ago, PaulS said:

Thanks.  I did remember your name and re-familiarized myself with some of your posts from way back in 2014.  I liked your approach to things then and I still do now.  Glad you have decided to end your hiatus for however long you should choose to.  I hope you're liking participating here once again. 

How did you access my posts from 2014? Does one just scroll down until one gets there?

I'd been wanting to get back to this forum for about a year, but not getting to it. Then notices from this sight just started popping up in my email, so I thought it was a good time to re-start.

It seems I really need a chance and opportunity to talk about PC and open minded Christianity.

16 hours ago, PaulS said:

Well, I'm still breathing so something's still kicking me along!

I was hoping I haven't been too much of an 'Aunt Ellen' to you, in some of the things I've said. This tends to happen with me a bit, especially with people that are younger than myself. Hope I didn't get too corny or something.

Good to hear and see that you are still getting on and along