Praying In Public

[GeorgeW]

For what it is worth, I think some public religiosity is a way of expressing identity. This would include religious garb - Christian crosses, Jewish Kippot (Yarmulkes), Muslim beards and head scarfs, etc. All of these have their theological explanations, but the underlying motivation is (IMO) expression of identity.

 

(Note: I have no objection to anyone expressing their identity with a religion)

 

George

[JosephM]

Jesus doesn't say anywhere here that it's with a specific type of public prayer. He very clearly says to go into your closet and pray in secret and God will reward you for it.

 

Neon,

He also doesn't say its not with a specific type of prayer and he might have known their intent and therefore called them hypocrites. Jesus prayed in front of his diciples also so i would suggest it is intent that matters rather than making it a law for oneself or to condemn others whom we are not aware of their intent. He did not condemn them for praying in the open, he said they already had their reward. I wouldn't say his words were so clear to draw a black and white line just because of one interpretation of what he might have meant. Just my own thoughts for consideration,

Joseph

[Neon Genesis]

How would any person know the intentions of a person's behavior? Not by the behavior alone.

I've known many evangelical Christians who see praying in public as an evangelizing tool to save the lost poor souls. My Sunday school teacher said that the reason they pray in public at restaurants is on the off-chance that some poor lost soul will see them doing it and that somehow their actions will lead them to Christ. After all, as we all know, if you're working at a restaurant on Sunday morning instead of being at church, you must be a wicked heathen damned to hell or something.

[glintofpewter]

Seeing intent where there is none and insisting on a literal reading of the Bible - sounds like Fundamentaism to me.

 

Dutch

[Neon Genesis]

Cherry picking the teachings of Jesus and twisting his words to make it fit your already preconceived beliefs-sounds like Fundamentalism to me.

[JosephM]

Neon,

 

I fail to understand your point here to Dutch. I quote you from June of 2011 "Quoting the bible to prove an argument is true is not critical thinking. It's circular logic."

 

Joseph

 

PS And it seems to me you are the one who first quoted the Bible here in this thread. Perhaps we are all cherry pickers?

Edited May 29, 2012 by JosephM

[glintofpewter]

Learning to discern intent is important in child development and in our criminal justice system. Table grace in a restaurant and %^@ on a T-shirt deliberately worn anywhere is provoke negative reaction are so far apart in the nature of the intention. I thought this might be the logical fallacy of "argument of force" but I learned that it is a logical boobytrap to stop reasoning.

 

Whatever the case - %^@ ends the discussion for me.

 

Dutch

[Hornet]

I've known many evangelical Christians who see praying in public as an evangelizing tool to save the lost poor souls. My Sunday school teacher said that the reason they pray in public at restaurants is on the off-chance that some poor lost soul will see them doing it and that somehow their actions will lead them to Christ. After all, as we all know, if you're working at a restaurant on Sunday morning instead of being at church, you must be a wicked heathen damned to hell or something.

 

I don't see it as an evangelizing tool. The purpose of praying in restaurant is to give thanks for the food. The purpose doesn't have to be to show off.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Hornet

[Neon Genesis]

 

 

Learning to discern intent is important in child development and in our criminal justice system. Table grace in a restaurant and %^@ on a T-shirt deliberately worn anywhere is provoke negative reaction are so far apart in the nature of the intention. I thought this might be the logical fallacy of "argument of force" but I learned that it is a logical boobytrap to stop reasoning.

 

Whatever the case - %^@ ends the discussion for me.

 

Dutch

They're not exactly the same but the point remains that both could offend others and both are freedoms we enjoy the right to but that doesn't mean that they're appropriate behavior to engage in. And many Christians react very violently when their ritual's privileged place in society are challenged, so it's not as innocent as you make it out to be. Edited May 29, 2012 by Neon Genesis

[glintofpewter]

Christian privilege is a serious issue that Americans need to understand but I am tired of the argument about public display of religious expression. First it seems to be argument between the poles of the spectrum in which we in the middle struggle to get out of. Second, it is not a healthy discussion because it does not lead to wholeness in the future. The extreme positions are trying to make it zero-sum: someone wins and someone loses. America is not zero-sum, neither is the best of Christianity and atheism. When one wins, every one wins. But this argument which so often ends with &^$#@ on a t-shirt seems to lead to a societal desert not unlike the knowledge of the universe being reduced to eliminative materialistic version of science. I think that makes us all poorer.

 

Dutch

[GeorgeW]

They're not exactly the same but the point remains that both could offend others and both are freedoms we enjoy the right to but that doesn't mean that they're appropriate behavior to engage in.

 

Any sort of equivalence is, IMO, absurd.

 

George

[PaulS]

Paul,

 

Sorry if that came across a little confrontational. It wasn't intended - I meant it more rhetorically. It is perfectly fine, in my opinion, to comment about what we observe and try to understand it (I am often guilty of this myself).

 

George

 

Thanks, George. No Probs.

[PaulS]

Paul,

 

I was particularly offended by you - sorry if it came across that way.

 

I think you meant to type wasn't, judging by the rest of your post, so thanks.

 

Cheers

Paul

[PaulS]

I don't see it as an evangelizing tool. The purpose of praying in restaurant is to give thanks for the food. The purpose doesn't have to be to show off.

 

I think the point was Hornet, that whilst it doesn't have to be a tool for evangelizing, Neon's experience (and mine) is that there are some who do use it that way at times. Your purpose may be to simply give thanks, but in the context of a group standing around a table and holding hands, it was questioned whether sometimes that may be more about display than about genuine thanks for thanks' sake.

[PaulS]

Perhaps this is appropriate here - in a special recommendation announcement emailed out by Jack Spong just yesterday, he recommends a book and a course. The book just happens to be called Amen: What Prayer Can Mean In A World Beyond Belief .

Product Description

 

Prayer is an essential part of the daily lives of many people. Some believe it connects them with God, a cosmic force, the universe or life itself, and that it can change circumstances or bring them comfort, protection and peace. Others engage in the act of prayer as a traditional ritual from which they neither demand nor expect results. Many who pray cannot imagine living without it. For many others, however, prayer has no significance in their lives at all. Having left a practice they once knew or matured without religious intervention or instruction, the idea of praying regularly might be considered by these individuals as nothing more than a waste of time. In Amen, Gretta Vosper, United Church minister and author of the controversial bestseller With or Without God, examines these diverse positions in the light of the harsh realities of unanswered prayer, the secular critique of supernatural intervention and the need for a deep sense of ownership for the suffering in the world. With characteristic honesty, she calls the reader to submit the tradition of prayer to the test of integrity. Can we draw from it useful principles for addressing human and global needs? Or is it safe, and maybe even more effective, to get up from our knees and live out the answers we seek?

 

About the Author

 

GRETTA VOSPER, author of the national bestseller With or Without God, is pastor of West Hill United Church in Toronto, and founder of the Canadian Centre for Progressive Christianity. She received her master of divinity from Queen’s Theological College in 1990 and was ordained in 1992. Vosper is a widely sought-after speaker and is regularly interviewed in the national media. Visit her at progressivechristianity.ca.

 

 

Cheers

Paul

[glintofpewter]

Gretta Vosper writes prayers and poems without God.

 

http://grettavosper.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=193&Itemid=92

[Neon Genesis]

Christian privilege is a serious issue that Americans need to understand but I am tired of the argument about public display of religious expression. First it seems to be argument between the poles of the spectrum in which we in the middle struggle to get out of. Second, it is not a healthy discussion because it does not lead to wholeness in the future. The extreme positions are trying to make it zero-sum: someone wins and someone loses. America is not zero-sum, neither is the best of Christianity and atheism. When one wins, every one wins. But this argument which so often ends with &^$#@ on a t-shirt seems to lead to a societal desert not unlike the knowledge of the universe being reduced to eliminative materialistic version of science. I think that makes us all poorer.

 

Dutch

I think as long as Christian extremists are sending death threats when their privileged place in society is challenged, I think it's important and healthy for us to debate what role religious rituals play in American society and when and where they're appropriate. Consider the threats Jessica Ahlquist has been receiving from Christians:

[PaulS]

Gretta Vosper writes prayers and poems without God.

 

http://grettavosper....d=193&Itemid=92

 

Without God, or without the word God?

 

She explains her lack of the use of the word God and then summarises:

 

That just about perfectly explains why I don’t use the word “god” anymore. Over the course of millennia, humans have understood God, with a capital "g," to mean, pretty much, a theistic being that has characteristics that give it power over humanity in some way. Within the church, however, over the past few decades it has become as difficult to understand as scientific technical terms used indiscriminately in different contexts. No longer having a universally understood definition, it is impossible to tell what one person means when they use it in one context and whether that is different from how another person might use it in a different context. Indeed, in different Christian communities, even in the same community, people have developed wildly divergent understandings; god can mean everything from that theistic being it once described to the feeling we have when our parents or our partners or our children act in ways that make our hearts just want to burst with joy. Theistically, it can mean the guy with the white beard, or an amorphous spirit that resides within us all and which can yet can act autonomously apart from us. Non-theistically, it can be a collection of values chosen by a community to guide it in right living or the void of silence into which one can enter to come to oneness with oneself and, through that, with the universe. There is no single meaning for the word god.

[glintofpewter]

Extremists are extremists. They do not have control of a reasonable conversation. Criminal acts deserve criminal investigations. Evil people are evil people and not part of the of the solution They do not control the boundaries of the conversation.The Phelps gang does not represent any side in the conversation. about GLBTQ rights.

 

I know that Jessica is not alone. Atheists have coming out stories and bias crimes committed against them just as GLBTs do I have read these accounts on atheists web sites. But if only the extremes are permitted voice in a zero-sum game and the middle is excluded there will not be support as there was in Jessica's case. There are atheist who are working towards cooperation in interfaith alliances. Theirs is another option.

 

"...We are proud to stand with others in Cranston who desire that Jessica and every young person be encouraged to learn to talk about their differences in peace," Rev. Leigh McCaffrey told Providence's NBC 10.

When the school committee addressed an initial complaint from the ACLU at meeting in August 2010, two religious leaders, a reverend and a rabbi, agreed the banner should be "altered or removed," according to the court document obtained by the Providence Journal.

 

As I have said elsewhere I do not think the goal should be to provoke bad behavior but to foster positive relations. I don't see this conversation about table grace in restaurants helpful. Season of Reason posters should be wherever Nativity scenes are on civic property.Maybe a scene of Thomas Edison's lab or Ben Franklin and his kite.It is a loss when we can't live in a pluralistic society without hiding our identity. In a Calvinistically stripped society Good without God ads would have to come down

 

Game theory is at work here. I think it is better to let the number of atheists increase through friendly discussion rather than arguments truncated by logical boobytraps. Look at the Mormon campaign to portray themselves as regular people. Soon there will be a critical mass and atheist will not be persecuted as much. It is a shame that the simple elimination of the first and last lines of the banner wouldn't be acceptable which would put the banner in a group of ubiquitous motivational posters.

 

But the courts have a higher standard for schools and I believe that even though the banner has been in place for many years claiming it is a cultural icon and not a religious statement is not a valid argument in a school.

 

Dutch

[Raven]

I think you meant to type wasn't, judging by the rest of your post, so thanks.

 

Cheers

Paul

 

Oh that's it - I really should stop posting on here until I've fully woken up. My apologies Paul - my fingers aren't morning people. To reiterate, there was nothing offensive (to me at least) in any of your posts. I always enjoy engaging with you and your ideas.

 

Now, for some caffeine...

[romansh]

Meister Eckhart wrote:

If the only prayer you ever say in your entire life is thank you, it will be enough.

Of course he might have been wrong.

 

rom

[JosephM]

Thanks for that quote rom,

 

And welcome to the community. Was impressed by all 3 of your posts so far as they add to the discussions. Perhaps you wpould be so kind to formally or informally introduce yourself in the introductions area with whatever you are willing to share about yourself?

 

Joseph