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Is The Human Condition Lost In Thought?


JosephM
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Do we spend most of our life imprisoned in our own thoughts? Is there really a dimension deeper than thought? If so, how do we become aware of it? it would be interesting to hear responses from both a Christian perspective and other wisdom tradition perspectives.

Any takers, pro or con to the topic? If no interest, after a couple weeks the thread will be deleted as is customary.

Joseph

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I was imprisoned in thought for many many years, but once I found peace in my belief system, I also found myself thinking less and living more. I think life is meant to be lived, so I try not to think too much now days, as I tend to get lost in my thoughts when I over think things. I call it getting lost in the darkness of mind. My motto is "live, love, and laugh"! This is enough for me. Everything else just weighs me down. :)

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I believe that there is, and that I've had at least brief experiences of such a state. i've related in other posts, something of that experiienced in connection to a period of deep psychological and spiritual crisis some years ago. A state in which in my conscious mind, thought was suspended, of having no conscious awareness of just what was "going on" somewhere deep within my psyche, yet at the same time knowing something very profound WAS taking place. I described it elswwhere as if my conscious mind was left to lie quiet and still, waiting outside "doors" through which some deeper part of myself had entered to attend important work, but work outside my awareness, not involving my concious thought. And that after, I had been deeply and profoundly changed through it.

I've come to think of that experience in context of the many rooms within St. Teresa's "Interior Castle", as the sacred inner chambers into which only the parts of us that lay deeper than our conscious mind, our very soul and spirit, can enter in.

 

Jenell

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Do we spend most of our life imprisoned in our own thoughts? Is there really a dimension deeper than thought? If so, how do we become aware of it? it would be interesting to hear responses from both a Christian perspective and other wisdom tradition perspectives.

Any takers, pro or con to the topic? If no interest, after a couple weeks the thread will be deleted as is customary.

Joseph

 

I'll side with Augustine against the Neoplatonists here: We are imprisoned no more by thought than we are emotion or our physical bodies. Thought can be a useful tool, as can the others, or it can be a crutch or a roadblock. Similarly, our emotions may bring us high, or they may be part of making us act in a beastly fashion. The correct path is not to escape thought, but rather to bring it in line with everything else. How that occurs is where things get interesting :)

 

One big question in the background is are we talking about psychology or soteriology? Are we trying to live a better, happier life, or are we wondering what shall set us free in terms of salvation and enlightenment. Obviously, those overlap, but they're not the same question. Meditation has scientifically demonstrated benefits regarding depression and other matters of wellbeing, but that isn't an argument for its spiritual significance in and of itself.

 

Also, I think it's important to ask why thought is bad. Is it because reason cannot understand all that is in heaven & earth? Is it because exalting the human mind that way is a rejection of a more harmonious understanding? Is thinking just the tip of the iceberg, and the entire ego needs to be brought low? Those are four extremely different problems, and if you're trying to solve one, you are not necessarily trying to solve the other three (or ones not listed).

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Thanks Nick,

 

To clarify.......The question was not meant to allude that thought was good or bad but rather to discuss your thoughts on whether in general we use thinking or it uses us (imprisons us) or a combination of the two. Also if you feel there is a dimension deeper than thought, how do we become aware of it? Answers are welcome from the perspective of Christian or other religious wisdom traditions.

 

Joseph

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Great topic.

 

Is there a dimension deeper than thought? I would (no pun intended) think so; also, every contemplative/mystic in religious history has affirmed as much. The way to become aware of this nonconceptual dimension of mind would, it seems, be through meditative practice. However, there are also numerous accounts of this aspect of the mind spontaneously manifesting. The conceptual mind and the nonconceptual mind are no doubt intimately connected. Perhaps the analogy of the pond is simplistic, but when water is disturbed (carried along by attachment to thoughts) its inner contents cannot obtain clarity. Note that this understanding of the mind assumes that at least some aspects of it are effectively immaterial.

 

But what are thoughts? What are concepts? We often call them 'models' or 'representations', and that may speak to their function, but what they are in themselves, I would suggest, is nothing other than the nonconceptual mind itself. The mind is creative; it can organize experiences to tell a story. In so doing it fools itself, taking its creations to be substantial objects that it can lay hold of or which confront it. Thought mystifies and creates attachment. As long as we don't see deeper than thought, we will be lost in thought. Seeing deeper than thought also, to me, includes subverting how we take thought to be, not merely eliminating thought (though it is possible to stop thought from time to time).

 

Nick raises interesting questions that I'm sure have a variety of answers depending on particular soteriological concerns. Certain schools of thought would identify meditation as intrinsically spiritual simply because reality-as-is is by definition spiritual, and meditation is a method by which to reach that reality, a reality which is nonconceptual (beyond perhaps both concepts and nonconcepts), essenceless, evanescent, a 'window to the divine'.

 

In Buddhism it is taught that there is the gross mind and the subtle mind. We're all acquainted with the former, it is the mind of normal conceptual and cognitive functions, but the trick of spiritual practice may be to allow the subtle mind to permeate the gross mind so that the gross mind gets a sense of its true import and reality, and to realize that it was never anything other than the subtle mind from the start.

 

To me thought and language are part of the unfolding of reality-as-is. There is no intrinsic need to deny its validity. It is perhaps when thought and language are mistaken to do (or be) something they don't (or aren't) that we have a need to 'go beyond language'. 'Ignorance' does not arise from any substance or essence. Perhaps reality is not found in finding the correct idea but of removing the obstacles that cause the notion of separation from it.

 

DT Suzuki once remarked that there is nothing either explicable or inexplicable about reality itself, which is just the state of how beings are. Thought, then, neither gets at what reality is nor does it not get at it.

 

That's one view anyhow.

 

Peace,

Mike

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As a Christian I feel Christ's direct experience with pure consciousness is beyond all thoughts and words, and reveals an all-pervading consciousness that unites all life under the vast possibilities in creation. Christ’s life gives me a comprehensive and deep meaning beyond the painful struggle that is represented in daily life and shows a spiritual way for everyone to be happy without a break from the environment. Inwardly, we know that human existence is more than what is observed with the senses and is beyond the explanation of scientific method that we use to predict and control our surroundings. Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Shiva, and Mohamed in their mythologies present to us a way to a dynamic regeneration of life where a person dies to an old mode of being and is reborn to a new and more spiritual existence in unity with pure consciousness. Thought seems to still be there, but our relationship to our thoughts seem to change.

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To clarify.......The question was not meant to allude that thought was good or bad but rather to discuss your thoughts on whether in general we use thinking or it uses us (imprisons us) or a combination of the two. Also if you feel there is a dimension deeper than thought, how do we become aware of it? Answers are welcome from the perspective of Christian or other religious wisdom traditions.

 

Ah, I misunderstood. I read that and started thinking back to some debates about where sin is "located" (is sin in the flesh but not the mind, etc). The idea that sin would be located in thought as such is an interesting idea that I'd need to think through more... but as you point out, thats not what you were asking about :)

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There was a time when I would have answered your query in the affirmative. However, hallucinogens opened my mind (pun intended) to the potential of the human mind. After about the 7th or 8th time, I realized that whatever I was pondering just prior to the rush would become the "theme" of my trip. It was like being the writer, director, producer and actor in my own movie! Right inside my head.

 

After I quit taking hallucinogens, I began to practice meditation to achieve the same results - to a much lesser degree, of course. I would choose a theme, or some problem or issue that was troubling me and focus my concentration on it. Often, my meditation was interrupted by one of those "aha" moments of discovery, and sometimes the solution to a particular problem would appear. Instead of being a prisoner to my thoughts, my thoughts are now captive to my inclinations.

 

During my Christian days, I referred to this as "every thought captive to Christ" because it was my fundamentalist faith that drove my meditation. Unfortunately, that only resulted in me becoming an incredibly obnoxious, holier-than-thou, theo-idiot.

 

Eventually, I came to my senses and left the Christian faith and abandoned theism. Although there is still an element of Christian philosophy to my way of thinking, I no longer feel captive to the traditional trappings of the supernatural elements of the faith. I can explore different faith expressions and fuse together a meaningful world view constructed from the bits and pieces worth salvaging from the world's religions.

 

Now I can actually program my dreams if I concentrate hard enough. I've used this to solve difficult problems or dilemmas. The subconscious mind is a powerful tool that we barely tap. When you program what the subject of your night dreams will be, you can look at a situation from every conceivable angle.

 

In Judaism, the mind is not treated as separate from the body as is in modern Christianity. That's how I view the mind in relation to the body - as part of the whole. As I can control my body, I can - and should - be in control of my mind.

 

When logic and proportion

Have fallen sloppy dead

And the White Knight is talking backwards

And the Red Queen's "off with her head!"

Remember what the dormouse said:

"Feed your head...Feed your head...

 

NORM

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I remember when I first began to glimpse to deeper states of consciousness beyond thought. I think it had first happened spontaneously, is times of extreme crisis, those flash seconds that seem to make time move in slow motion, as conscious thought falls silent and something from somewhere rises up to 'take control' when we cannot know what to do, how to react. As I ventured into intentionally seeking those states, those levels of consciousness, as it seemed to me, my experiencing, a work of stilling, silencing, thought. As if, if I could just make my own thoughts just shut up and get out of the way and stop making so much noice, I could "hear" something I otherwise could not. That is how I'd best describe, as if a state of intent 'listening', to something inward, musc as onne would seek to silence all competing sounds in the outer reality, so as to hear the most minute sound that would be drowned out by those other sounds.

 

But by the same analogy to sounds, I can understand that may not only be difficult, but perhaps even impossible for some one, at least in any given present state. In my hearing of sound, i suffer persistent, constant, quite loud tinnitis. I have for so many years I can't even remember what silence 'sounds' like. I cannot know or experience silence now. In fact, being in a completely quiet environment is actually difficult for me, for the less other sounds, the more aware I become of this constant annoying ringing of the tinnitis. I seems to just get louder and louder, as it is no longer being drowned out by outside noises. I was reminded of this just this evening as passing storms knocked out electrical power here for several hours. We don't realize how much noice is in even our own homes...the sounds of appliances...until the power goes off. I soon had to open a nearby window and door so that I could better hear the rain and the traffic passing on the highway, not just to enjoy the sound of the rain, but to take the edge of this constant annoying ringing in my ears.

 

I can understand how it can be that one can have such 'inner noice', discordant or otherwise difficult noise, in the levels of pre-conscious one must pass through in a meditative state, before accessing those deeper levels of unconsiousness, to be able to beat to give up, silence, the sounds of one's own thoughts. I know that I had to go through some stages of that, in coming to be able to entirely silence my thoughts, so as to enter that 'listening' state. When you start silencing conscious thought, a lot of noise from pre-concious levels begin to rise up, intrude, and for most of us, this is the level at which we've stored an awful lot of difficult and unpleasant stuff. Even now, I cannot always make it, break through that barrier, though I've learned to not let that disturb me, that I just can't do it this time is ok, sometimes its just that way. Perhaps great spiritual gurus than myself can do so consistently and easily, for now I can't. And that stuff arising into my conscious awareness from within my pre-concious acts like this tinnitis, this annoying ringing in my ears, when I am in a very quiet environment.

 

Since I cannot make the ringing in my ears go away, my only relief from it is to bring noise back into my environment, 'white noise' that will drown it out, make me less aware of it. I have come to be able to get through that, silence even the annoying thoughts that rise up out of my pre-concious as I seek further into deeper states, until it too, fades from my awareness, to allow me entry into that sacred silence, a silence of inner listening.

 

Are we 'prisoners' of our thoughts? I see two ways of looking at that. When they interfere, won't shut up so as to allow us to enter that silent 'listening' state, I suppose that could be seen like that. If unable to break out of them, silence them, then I guess that is an imprisonment in them.

 

On the other hand, however, what are we, even a deeper question, ARE we at all, without our thoughts? In a vegetative state of the body, where thought functions of the brain have ceased, do WE even exist anymore? Our body is there, exists, but do We, the essense of ourself, who/what we are, even exist anymore? There are certain base level responses the body might exhibit to stimuli, that do not involve capacity for thought. Are we imprisoned by our thoughts, or liberated by them?

 

Yet thoughts cannot be all there is, at least, for any kind of existence we recognize as actual experience of life. There are those who's body have become entirely unresponsive, unable to even percieve the physical environment. That possible state that is terrifying to even consider, our brain being aware, our thoughts active, but entirely detached from input through any of our physical senses. That is surely to be imprisoned in our thoughts! Would I choose to exchange the annoying condition of constant ringing in my ears for the total silence of deafness? Of course not!

 

So physical experience of our environment through our body's senses is certainly important in not being imprisoned in one's thoughts. But we can also find ourselves out of balance, in either direction, whether we indulge in a sensational experience at the expense of thought, "thoughtless" or "mindless" and impulsive behavior can sure make a mess of our life. In the other, yes, we can become so self-absorbed in our thoughts, that we cease to fully experience life in the sensual sense. We can get so lost in our own head that we neglect our bodies and relationships, cease to enjoy the sensual pleasures of living, of even just experiencing our own body.

 

If there is an 'imprisonment' here, perhaps it is in the tightly bound symbiosis of our body and mind. That, too, however, creates perhaps an absurb duality, artifical separation, as perhaps body and mind, physical material and thought, are not two things bound together, but just one thing with two co-equal components.

 

Jenell

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Do we spend most of our life imprisoned in our own thoughts? Is there really a dimension deeper than thought? If so, how do we become aware of it? it would be interesting to hear responses from both a Christian perspective and other wisdom tradition perspectives.

Joseph,

 

Frankly, I am not clear as to what you, and others, mean. When you say "thought," do you mean reason? If so, I think I disagree with dismissing this as negative (or harmful?).

 

I realize that much that we think is determined by reason is actually driven or influenced by intuition and emotion. But, I don't think the world would be a better place if somehow we could dispense with reason. I think rational consideration of alternatives and the consequences of our actions is a positive thing to do. I think rational discourse in disputes is more likely to lead to positive outcomes than emotional reaction.

 

I would not dismiss meditation and the like. But, I think reason also has an important role to play in our lives. But, having said this, I could well be misunderstanding what you and others are talking about.

 

George

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George,

I don't think that is what is meant here. The OP was not meant to say that thinking was good or bad or that it should be dismissed as negative or harmful. The question was "do we spend most of our life imprisoned in our thoughts? For some the answer may be no. For some yes. And "is there a dimension deeper than thought and if so, how do we access it or become aware of it?

 

It seems to me, that reason is a necessary progression for the evolution of consciousness and is a high level of consciousness obtained or mastered by a minority of people and can not be dismissed lightly as just thoughts. Of course, for myself, i do not equate reasoning with general thinking or thoughts that occur regularly in ones head. If i watch my thoughts for even a half hour or so, i find them filled with bits and pieces of music, conditioned judgments, desires, and a myriad of other non-sensical fragments that i would not consider reasoning but rather 'noise' that comes from, where? What i am asking is " is there a dimension beyond thinking which reason to me perhaps comes from and you refer to as intuition in your post and if so how do we access it or become more aware of it? I think as Mike has said in his post, "every contemplative/mystic in religious history has affirmed as much" . I am merely inviting those who believe such to present either Christian Biblical teachings or other wisdom tradition teachings in support. Or if one believes reason is that dimension to do likewise or if there is no such dimension to express their view.

 

Joseph

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What i am asking is " is there a dimension beyond thinking which reason to me perhaps comes from and you refer to as intuition in your post and if so how do we access it or become more aware of it?Joseph

Joseph,

 

I think it has been scientifically demonstrated that we do have basic social intuitions (including moral). These are genetically based and then conditioned and elaborated by experience (including education, explicit and implicit). We are social animals. At the same time, we also have genetically based personal needs/desires such as hunger, sex, desire for status, power, distrust of strangers, etc. These social and personal impulses are often in tension. I would argue that reason can help resolve this tension in a positive way.

 

George

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George,

 

I would suggest that we become more aware of this intuition and increase our ability to use reason by listening to silence. I think in doing so, we become more aware or alert. In essence, perhaps by doing so, we step out from our conditioning and the noise of thought. It seems to me that out of this state creativity and solutions are found.

 

Joseph

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I don't think that is what is meant here. The OP was not meant to say that thinking was good or bad or that it should be dismissed as negative or harmful. The question was "do we spend most of our life imprisoned in our thoughts? For some the answer may be no. For some yes. And "is there a dimension deeper than thought and if so, how do we access it or become aware of it?

 

I think part of the disconnect is that if one suggests that one is imprisoned by thought, one is necessarily suggesting that thought (or at least our usage of it) is problematic, dysfunctional, harmful, etc. I'm unsure how one could argue we are imprisoned by rational-linguistic formulations without implying something negative about it. Mind you, I can imagine someone suggesting thought is rational-linguistic formulations is deeply problematic in ways other than imprisonment (leads us astray, for example, is a rather different metaphor).

 

So, I guess part of me wants a definition of imprisonment, next to George's request for a definition of thought.

 

That said, if the claim is that rational-linguistic formulations must be put in relation with other forms of consciousness, I'd tentatively agree. You've mentioned silence, which suggests to me meditation, and I'd agree that has some sort of value. One could also potentially make claims about other forms of consciousness from drugs or ecstatic worship / ascetic rites. I think these statements can be true even if one is a pure materialist and argues these are just tools to access one's subconscious.

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Nick raises interesting questions that I'm sure have a variety of answers depending on particular soteriological concerns. Certain schools of thought would identify meditation as intrinsically spiritual simply because reality-as-is is by definition spiritual, and meditation is a method by which to reach that reality, a reality which is nonconceptual (beyond perhaps both concepts and nonconcepts), essenceless, evanescent, a 'window to the divine'.

 

Indeed.

Though, from my POV, these types of practices are less related to justification (what gets you "saved"), and more to sanctification (what makes you "better" in this world).

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Indeed.

Though, from my POV, these types of practices are less related to justification (what gets you "saved"), and more to sanctification (what makes you "better" in this world).

 

Nick,

 

That would seem to me to be the case also. I personally would chose the words "to be more in a harmony relationship with the whole" rather than "better in this world", however, we are probably saying the same thing.

 

Joseph

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I think part of the disconnect is that if one suggests that one is imprisoned by thought, one is necessarily suggesting that thought (or at least our usage of it) is problematic, dysfunctional, harmful, etc. I'm unsure how one could argue we are imprisoned by rational-linguistic formulations without implying something negative about it. Mind you, I can imagine someone suggesting thought is rational-linguistic formulations is deeply problematic in ways other than imprisonment (leads us astray, for example, is a rather different metaphor).

 

So, I guess part of me wants a definition of imprisonment, next to George's request for a definition of thought.

 

That said, if the claim is that rational-linguistic formulations must be put in relation with other forms of consciousness, I'd tentatively agree. You've mentioned silence, which suggests to me meditation, and I'd agree that has some sort of value. One could also potentially make claims about other forms of consciousness from drugs or ecstatic worship / ascetic rites. I think these statements can be true even if one is a pure materialist and argues these are just tools to access one's subconscious.

Nick,

 

I think i understand your concern here. That thought or thinking CAN BE problematic or dysfunctional perhaps may be established by the fields of Psychology and Psychiatry already. The question is meant to provoke discussion on whether we are at times imprisoned by our thoughts and whether there is a deeper dimension . It is not meant to make a statement that ALL thought or thinking is problematic. There is no argument, only a request for personal views and perhaps some ideas or religious teachings that point to the subject.. The answer to the topic question may be "yes", "no", "at times" etc.? and "there is no deeper dimension than thought", "there is a deeper dimension" and here is what i think about it......etc,

 

Joseph

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I feel our thoughts create our reality as we know it and it seems everyone has different thoughts. They are a little different; therefore we can’t judge another. This corresponds with the thought that our habitual thinking patterns and beliefs are largely responsible for our success or failure in life, and not some God or magical phrase. If a thought pattern is energy then it will attract or repeal similar to energy and since everything is made up of energy our thoughts seem to be the only existing things with different manifestations. A person who is praying for something it seems is just requesting the energy frequency to manifest or change something. This can focus the energy in our thoughts to produce the electrical vibration, activities and appropriate response in our reality to bring the desired response.

 

Now, I have to ask myself is my meditation eliminating all thoughts from my mind? I know there is a time in my meditation where everything goes blank, but I can’t describe that, but I can talk about stilling the mind from all thoughts. If I visualize my consciousness as an ocean, the wind, gravity, moving objects and other activities that seem to cause a constant pattern of ripples and currents on the surface that are constantly disturbing the water. This ocean represents my universe as I witness it through my five senses, and it expands in all directions to infinity and back with me in the center. Observation is the key or center in this mental experiment or situation. I need to see what is happening and how it is happening through the thoughts in my mind. To do this I need clarity in my consciousness. Therefore, I look at meditation as an experiment in this ocean of consciousness.

 

In the constant movement of the ocean I can see the effects of the waves that are disturbing the surface; there is so much going on at the same time. In meditation I am attempting to completely calm everything down until I have a still pond with no waves or ripples of any kind. I have to calm my mind down from all the activities, worries, and responsibilities, even from my own identity. In the meditation I can get to a place where I am just the observer looking at a peaceful, still ocean. My thoughts seem to be at a calm standstill in my mind and are comfortable in just being. Now, if a thought drops an object in my mind, I can watch the ripples expand on the surface of the ocean created by this single thought, I can watch the waves expand in wider and wider circles all the way to the to infinity. This helps me to see that I am just the observer of my chosen limitation on the physical plane from an unlimited potential of consciousness, which seems to be the source, or God if one wishes to call it that which is surrounding me.

 

Jesus said, “I and the Father are One.” I am the observer of this ocean and the ocean is I. I am watching the ripples on this ocean created by the thoughts that I drop in the water so I see the ripples on the ocean as my physical creation of myself.

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Mike,

 

Would the non-conceptual or subtle mind you refer to in your post be the the same as what some might refer to as the collective unconscious or that part of mind that is connected to the whole ?

 

I especially like your suggestion that "the trick of spiritual practice may be to allow the subtle mind to permeate the gross mind so that the gross mind gets a sense of its true import and reality, and to realize that it was never anything other than the subtle mind from the start." although that is a most difficult understanding to conceptualize. Perhaps Christianity (biblically speaking) refers to the subtle mind as "the mind of Christ" and the gross mind as "the carnal mind"?

 

Joseph

 

Soma,

 

Just saw your post above while i was posting at the same time, i like the way you relate it to earthly things. It gives your view clarity to this reader.

Joseph

Edited by JosephM
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Indeed.

Though, from my POV, these types of practices are less related to justification (what gets you "saved"), and more to sanctification (what makes you "better" in this world).

 

I would hope that these two simply mirror one another. :)

 

To me salvation involves selflessness, which of course is directly related to ethics and how we live.

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Hi Joseph,

 

Mike,

 

Would the non-conceptual or subtle mind you refer to in your post be the the same as what some might refer to as the collective unconscious or that part of mind that is connected to the whole ?

 

I especially like your suggestion that "the trick of spiritual practice may be to allow the subtle mind to permeate the gross mind so that the gross mind gets a sense of its true import and reality, and to realize that it was never anything other than the subtle mind from the start." although that is a most difficult understanding to conceptualize. Perhaps Christianity (biblically speaking) refers to the subtle mind as "the mind of Christ" and the gross mind as "the carnal mind"?

 

I like this suggestion -- the mind of Christ vs the carnal mind. Strictly speaking the 'subtle' mind of Buddhism is that which survives physical death, it is the 'base consciousness'. But I'm not limiting myself to that idea, as like you, I think the notion of 'subtle mind' seems rife with implications. The mind is 'layered' into hierarchies of purity. What 'subtle mind' means to me is that which is essentially pure, creative, transparent and open. There is neither the unity nor separation, just the non-independence and identitylessness of things. It is the inner meaning of phenomena, of the 'gross mind', and belongs to neither self nor other. It is a dimension where not a mote of objective dust clings. There is nothing 'pregiven', nothing 'out there', but all is originally selfless abiding. Truth and its meaning interpenetrate and are something like an essenceless magical display, all things being a pure window to the ultimate nature of things.

 

Peace.

Edited by Mike
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I would hope that these two simply mirror one another. :)

 

To me salvation involves selflessness, which of course is directly related to ethics and how we live.

 

My central reason for posting that is I do not accept a theology that claims if you don't pray or meditate the right way for the right result, you cannot be saved. That seems... off to me. I realize that wasn't what Joseph meant, but "Justification by correct meditative practice" is not something I'd be comfortable with. But certainly there is a relationship between them.

 

Or we could just assume I once more made my Standard Rant Against Pelagianism #1 ("Moralism is bad") ;)

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Hi Nick,

 

Can't say I know anything about Pelagianism, so I had to consult theopedia. :)

 

I think we're using the term 'salvation' rather broadly here; I'm not sure how you mean it. I think I usually mean something along the lines of 'saving me from myself', and it involves opening up to a bottomless grace immanent in all my doings.

 

Peace,

Mike

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No offense to anyone here, but I have to admit this thread has quite effectively boggled my mind into a state of confusion. As I think someone else observed, I'm not at all sure now what it is we are actually talking about. I'm just going to re-read, think, and quietly sit back and just try to follow a while.

 

Jenell :blink:

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